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  1. Home
  2. /Story
  3. /Verifying your Matrix devices is becoming mandatory
  1. Home
  2. /Story
  3. /Verifying your Matrix devices is becoming mandatory
Nov 19, 2025 at 7:22 PM EST

Verifying your Matrix devices is becoming mandatory

LorenDB
209 points
239 comments

Mood

informative

Sentiment

neutral

Category

tech_discussion

Key topics

Matrix

Security

Encryption

Discussion Activity

Very active discussion

First comment

34m

Peak period

160

Day 1

Avg / period

160

Comment distribution160 data points
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Key moments

  1. 01Story posted

    Nov 19, 2025 at 7:22 PM EST

    4d ago

    Step 01
  2. 02First comment

    Nov 19, 2025 at 7:56 PM EST

    34m after posting

    Step 02
  3. 03Peak activity

    160 comments in Day 1

    Hottest window of the conversation

    Step 03
  4. 04Latest activity

    Nov 20, 2025 at 2:15 PM EST

    3d ago

    Step 04

Generating AI Summary...

Analyzing up to 500 comments to identify key contributors and discussion patterns

Discussion (239 comments)
Showing 160 comments of 239
olivia-banks
4d ago
4 replies
What exactly does this entail? I'm willing to be charitable in assuming that their use of "verify" isn't the modern usage of "give us your ID!" but I'm not enmeshed enough in the ecosystem anymore to know.
xethos
4d ago
Respectfully, not even close. Verification is when I sign in from a new device, I use an existing device or second passphrase (either-or) to ensure that yes, it is me on both devices. I never have to reveal my ID, name, phone number, or email address to anyone. Not to Element, the Matrix Foundation, or the person running my home server where all my [encrypted] messages live.
goku12
4d ago
If you don't mind reading an essay, here is mine from the same discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45989744
ranger_danger
4d ago
My understanding is that there's two different types of verification.

Self-verification means that any new secondary devices you log into your account with will need to be verified by an existing login by way of an automatic popup that asks if you trust the device. It used to just be a Yes/No button but I think now they've added QR codes and/or emoji matching.

The other kind is verification between two different people, like when starting a direct message conversation, you might get the same emoji matching window to verify each other.

josephcsible
4d ago
Yeah, IMO "verify" was a poor choice of wording for what this is. It has nothing to do with remote attestation or any other form of Treacherous Computing, and it has nothing to do with your real-life identity. It's just "go on your old device and confirm that the new device is really yours."
tripdout
4d ago
9 replies
What is verification? What does it involve doing? A lot of information on why it's useful, but how is it implemented? I hope it's not something like the Play Integrity API, but with no information to go on, I can't say either way.
ThePinion
4d ago
1 reply
In the current state, it's basically just a self verification. When you use a new device it shows a series of emoji on each device and asks you if they're the same, then the device is verified.
mroche
4d ago
You can also use a generated security key to verify as a type of second-factor.
totetsu
4d ago
1 reply
https://element.io/en/help#encryption-device-verification

> After Alice logs in on a new device, she uses her cryptographic identity to demonstrate to Bob that the new device genuinely belongs to her, rather than being added by someone else with access to her account. She can do this either by entering her recovery key (which gives the new device immediate access to her cryptographic identity ), or by carrying out an interactive verification from an existing verified device.

navigate8310
4d ago
3 replies
So is this like the Signal PIN which is required when installing on a new device? If you forget, the cryptography changes and old contacts are warned that signatures are rotated, right?
kevincox
4d ago
2 replies
Yes, the purpose is the same but the UX is a bit different.
Lerc
4d ago
2 replies
Quite. I have yet to manage a verification between clients.

I have had all variations of clients ignoring requests, reporting requests only for the requesting client to ignore the response. Both ends quitting declaring that the other end cancelled, asking for the other end to input a code while the other end shows no interface for doing so.

It marked the end of me using Matrix as a platform. I'd go back to the old IRC channels if there were anyone still there.

tcfhgj
3d ago
I have never failed at that. Worst case I type my recovery key and done.

I still have my encrypted messages available from 2020

immibis
3d ago
People still use IRC
rebolek
4d ago
1 reply
If by bit different you mean absolute nightmare then yes
tcfhgj
3d ago
imho it's the best out there

- no unnecessary coupling to a phone client

- no coupling to any other client - I can just put my recovery key in and be verified without having to deal with other apps.

octoberfranklin
4d ago
More like the safety number / QR code.

The numerical Signal PINs are basically just for when you bootstrap your Signal identity from a telephone number.

jojobas
4d ago
Except Signal PIN appears to be trivial to bruteforce for Signal itself, unlike this properly secure verification.
foresto
4d ago
3 replies
In this case, it's what you do when signing in from a new device (or browser) to attest that it's yours. It avoids warnings to you and your contacts that a device has gained access to your account without your approval.

It involves doing one of these things:

- Comparing a short sequence of emoji on each device and confirming that they match.

- Using one device to scan a QR code displayed by the other.

- Entering a recovery key (a line of text) that you were given when you first set up the account.

Pretty quick and easy in most cases, although some clients can be glitchy in this area and require trying again.

(Gripe: The recovery key approach was unfortunately made painful and error-prone in recent Element releases, by disabling the option to choose a passphrase instead, but most people can simply use one of the other two approaches.)

g-b-r
4d ago
1 reply
> Pretty quick and easy in most cases

The experiences reported here seem to say otherwise...

As others, anyhow, I haven't tried again recently

> (Gripe: The recovery key approach was unfortunately made painful and error-prone in recent Element releases, by disabling the option to choose a passphrase instead, but most people can simply use one of the other two approaches.)

I last tried Element about six months ago, but for years using the recovery key was either impossible or close to it, and mostly just for idiotic UI mistakes that were never corrected (something like you had to enter the key where they wanted the passphrase or the opposite).

To my recollection the version from six months ago worked better in that regard, but it was still asking to enter the passphrase where you actually had to enter the recovery key.

foresto
4d ago
2 replies
I think current Element versions accept either a recovery key or recovery passphrase in the same input field, so there's no getting it wrong. Since you seem focused on UI, it's worth noting that Element X (their beta mobile app) has a greatly simplified interface; their team clearly has been working to make it easier.

Also, other clients exist.

For whatever it's worth, I've been using Matrix for about five years, including some of its roughest times. I seldom see errors these days, but I can understand how folks who were frustrated with earlier iterations would still be soured to it. Such is the nature of an ambitious work in progress, I suppose.

I use it because there is nothing else with the combination of features that are most important to me, and because (despite my gripes) I can see slow and steady improvement. I think it's moving in the right direction overall. I could picture introducing family members to it once Matrix 2.0 is released and the implementations shake out any early problems.

g-b-r
4d ago
1 reply
I tried the current Element and Element X.

In short, the passphrase works with both and the recovery key with neither, specifically:

Element classic has two separate fields; if I input the recovery key (in the correct field), I get told "Backup could not be decrypted with this PASSPHRASE: please verify that you entered the correct recovery passphrase."

That's how it was the last time I used it, and if I'm not mistaken it's been for years.

Element X has a single field, that supposedly takes both passphrases and recovery keys, but if I enter the recovery key I'm directed to a "Verify with another verified device" screen, even if I had logged out from all other sessions.

Funnily, by the way, it seems that with Element X you can't do anything if you don't manage to get verified, there just doesn't seem to be a way to skip it.

Furthermore, after signing out from Element X I'm unable to even just logging back in, I get an error ("Sorry, an error occurred") after I enter the credentials; even after clearing all the app's storage. Very, very weird.

The new login-via-browser is pretty problematical, by the way, I could only make it work with Chrome.

tcfhgj
3d ago
> Element X has a single field, that supposedly takes both passphrases and recovery keys, but if I enter the recovery key I'm directed to a "Verify with another verified device" screen, even if I had logged out from all other sessions.

I have just tried this on Android.

I am directed to

1) "Device verified - Now you can read or send messages securely, and ... - [Continue]"

2) "Help improve Element X ... [OK] [Not now]"

3) list of chats

Element X Android fyi. No problems logging in using Firefox.

BrenBarn
4d ago
> I can see slow and steady improvement.

That is true, but what weakens my confidence is that the Element/Matrix team often doesn't present it that way. So much communication from them is about how it's amazing and great and the best messaging app in the world. If they presented it more like a typical slow-growth open source app I think they'd garner more goodwill. By setting high expectations they increase the likelihood of disappointment.

SilverElfin
4d ago
2 replies
Maybe I’m missing something but why does this service need this process while Discord or whatever don’t?
jorams
4d ago
Discord does not do any sort of end-to-end encryption. All messages are fully readable and writable by Discord. Discord decides whether you are who you say you are, and all clients trust whatever Discord says to be trustworthy.
bigyabai
3d ago
That's easy, Discord is spyware.
tcfhgj
3d ago
1 reply
> The recovery key approach was unfortunately made painful and error-prone in recent Element releases, by disabling the option to choose a passphrase instead, but most people can simply use one of the other two approaches.

honestly it's the best thing ever they have done:

- I have heard of someone who failed to use Matrix, because he got frustrated of having not a secure enough passphrase

- people don't choose secure passphrases

- it provides options making things more complex (especially when guiding others)

- you know you won't memorize it, so you are more likely to put it down

foresto
3d ago
1. Generating a random key by default (but still allowing advanced users to prefer a passphrase) would solve your "secure enough" problem.

2. Better yet, a "secure enough" passphrase could be generated by default, à la Correct Horse Battery Staple. A user wouldn't be forced to choose one.

3. When adding an option, interface complexity can be avoided by simply not showing it by default, or by placing it off to the side in collapsed state where it doesn't draw attention.

4. If you're worried about people writing down a passphrase, you should be even more worried about a string of 50 random characters.

That last one is important. Nobody is going to memorize a random key, which means everyone has to write it to a file (or painstakingly write it on paper) for long term storage. When verifying remote devices, they also have to get the key to the other devices, so they are likely to use copy/paste, which will put it on at least two devices' clipboards, where it will be available for harvesting by nosy apps/websites or accidental pasting to random ones. They also have to figure out a way to transport the key from one device's clipboard to another, which might be email or SMS or some other insecure channel that they're accustomed to using. Or in the unlikely event that they choose paper, they have to painstakingly transcribe it again at the other end.

In other words, forcing the use of a random key does not increase security vs. a well-implemented passphrase system, but instead pushes responsibility for security out of the software and into the hands of people who aren't trained in it. Inviting more big mistakes.

A passphrase would avoid most of those exposure risks by not having to be written down or copy/pasted or sent through insecure channels. And with the right UI, it wouldn't be more complex to use or less secure.

Fortunately, Matrix supports passphrase-derived keys at the protocol level, so client developers who understand how to implement them well for humans can still do so. I hope Element's product managers will come around eventually.

joecool1029
4d ago
I’m a server admin and I still couldn’t tell you why when I sign new endpoints in and verify for cross-signing it still also asks me for a recovery key.

For encrypted search on desktop it has to fetch batches of messages and this is configurable in settings. It just had a number? what is that? how large the batch is, how many ms? no clue! good thing we can’t do encrypted search on mobile/web.

solarkraft
4d ago
(I think) It transfers (access to) your keys for end-to-end encryption between devices.
olivia-banks
4d ago
Yeah, I was wondering this as well. At the very least, this appears to be an Element requirement that was just enabled by a Matrix protocol update, so moving would be possible, but afaik Element is extremely popular as far as Matrix goes.
Aachen
4d ago
I was afraid of that as well given the wording but, no, it's nothing to do with third parties at all. Just when you log into a new device, you confirm it on your old device so it knows it can transfer encryption keys for old messages to the new device

This has been in Element/Matrix since forever and I found it the easiest verification mechanism of all the encrypted messengers I've tried. I'm not surprised they're making this part of the standard process, but the wording in 2025 is... unfortunate. Or perhaps that adjective should be applied to the rest of the world since it's not the Matrix Foundation which changed. For the reader to decide ^^

josephcsible
4d ago
Thankfully, no, it's not anything evil like Play Integrity is. The simple explanation is that the first time you log in to an existing account from a new device, you need to go on one of your old devices and confirm that the new one is yours.
DrewADesign
3d ago
In my case, it transferred my willingness to self-host a chat server to something else.
bfkwlfkjf
4d ago
2 replies
Is this the ritual of getting together with a person and checking that their fingerprint match what you see on the app?

If this is that case what will happen is that people will start verifying everyone (because they might want to text to strangers that they can't bother verifying because the stakes are so low) and so verification will lose all meaning.

ranger_danger
4d ago
2 replies
Isn't this how TLS itself already works? "trust on first use"?
treyd
4d ago
1 reply
With PKI you're trusting a certificate chain up to a CA you already trust, by way of your OS or browser vendor.

A domain can layer on HSTS to that, which directs clients to additionally refuse to trust a new cert for a domain until the one you currently trust has expired.

scheub
4d ago
That’s not what HSTS does. It asks the client to remember that you want to only use TLS for that domain and refuse to use unencrypted HTTP in the future.
pavon
4d ago
1 reply
Not in current practice. That is why you have to get a certificate from a trusted CA. If your CA isn't in the browser's cert database they will reject the connection even on the first time. If browsers allowed TOFU we would still be able to use self-issued certificates, without manually distributing certs to anyone that uses your service.

SSH is an example of TOFU.

majorchord
4d ago
> we would still be able to use self-issued certificates

You still can... it just displays a warning message on first use, as does ssh.

syntheticnature
4d ago
It is not; I know we don't read articles here, but...
lousken
4d ago
1 reply
"The authenticity of this encrypted message cant be guaranteed on this device" both sides verified, but this still randomly pops up, what happens then? will i lose those messages in the future?
Arathorn
3d ago
No, it's just a warning that your client can't prove that the message was really sent by that sender. These will eventually go away once https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/pull/404... lands.
jerrythegerbil
4d ago
3 replies
As someone whose devices randomly became unverified just a few months ago, signed out, and then tried to use my recovery keys: I was authenticated, but unverified.

When attempting to verify iOS, Desktop linux didn’t work. When attempting to verify Desktop Linux, Desktop Windows didn’t work. When verifying Android, iOS didn’t work. Every verified official client for every platform was verified, tried a different verification method than expected, and failed.

All of this to say, this isn’t the first time this has happened to myself and others. Forcing verification is otherwise known as unexpected “offboarding”. If some verification methods have problems, publish a blog about their deprecation instead.

I love element, but this can’t be done without prior work to address.

Groxx
3d ago
I've had constant problems with the verification ever since it was introduced. As far as I can tell it hasn't improved at all. Sometimes it works, sometimes it repeatedly kicks me out moments after succeeding, and it's still prompting me to verify some old devices that I removed Element from years ago and I can't find any way to make the constant pop-ups go away (when they feel like appearing again - sometimes they go away for a couple months).

All this will do is make me lose EVERY profile.

Aurornis
3d ago
I went through the same frustration recently. I only occasionally use it, but every second or third time I have to open it up to talk in some channel I lose 30 minutes chasing my tail trying to work through the latest set of problems.

I like the idea, but the effort to reward ratio for using the product has not been good. It has caused visible churn and attrition in the few channels I’ve tried to participate in and it’s become a problem for the OSS projects I’m part of that try to use it for their communication. Of course, there are some people who like it that way and think making communication spaces difficult to access is a bonus, but that’s another topic.

tcfhgj
3d ago
are you using your own server?

I have never heard of such issue and not experienced it despite intensive use, so it's a bit strange that you and people you know have experienced this repeatedly.

hedora
4d ago
2 replies
I don’t use Matrix, but if it’s E2EE, then how is it possible in the current design for an unverified device to even exist?

It has the keys, or it doesn’t, right?

kevincox
4d ago
1 reply
Matrix has E2EE support and many clients are pushing it as the default. But it also supports rooms that are only encrypted in transit.
prophesi
4d ago
That's correct, but E2EE also allows for unverified devices[0]. Key distribution and device verification are separate issues, and the former doesn't enforce the latter until April 2026 as they've announced in the HN article.

[0] https://matrix.org/docs/matrix-concepts/end-to-end-encryptio...

bigstrat2003
4d ago
1 reply
You don't have to use E2EE if you don't want to. I personally don't because I don't care about it, and it adds extra difficulties to the experience.
throwaway290
4d ago
3 replies
If you don't need e2ee, are there features that make matrix better than xmpp?
tcfhgj
3d ago
decentralized rooms, built in video conferencing, consistent chat history storage
jeroenhd
4d ago
Lots of open source projects have matrix servers and not XMPP servers. Some bridges don't have XMPP equivalents (and some bridges don't have Matrix equivalents either).

XMPP also does E2EE of course, though I've found it to be a worse experience on most clients compared to Matrix.

toastal
4d ago
Both XMPP (via OMEMO) & Matrix use libsignal for double-rachet encryption—so they have the same encryption properties. The biggest practical differences for the average user in my opinion is XMPP has a separate concept for DMs (not a 2-user room with encryption like Matrix), XMPP allows encryption to be both enabled then later disabled, & Matrix offers better resilience as messages & attachments get synced to all servers a room (which has a massive downside of resources, storage sizes, & moderation; if a server goes offline, you still have a history of the chat but if someone shares something explicit, such as CP, it will propagate thru the network & there is no way to delete it across nodes).

One of the better comparisons out there: https://www.freie-messenger.de/en/systemvergleich/xmpp-matri...

toastal
4d ago
3 replies
I tried out an alpha client once & can’t get the stupid pop-up about unverified devices to go away now. Another client didn’t have the verification flow even set up—this will end up being yet another barrier to entry for new clients. With the clients (yes, multiple) crashing often, constantly syncing for ages, & feature sets not on parity + without graceful fallbacks, I do not like the Matrix client space (nor the server space, but that is a different topic).

There has never been a better time to (re)embrace XMPP as your decentralized chat option. The clients are less buggy, handle missing features gracefully, & best part is, not being built on an eventual consistency model, you don’t have the constant syncing issue with delayed messages. If you wanted you could make an XMPP client in a day since the base spec is small/simple—& features like device verification would be seen as mandatory in the base specification.

mxuribe
4d ago
3 replies
I used to consider myself a HUUUGE matrix fanboy....while i still respect what the teams have done over time, I have been feeling a little, i don't know, deflated maybe? Maybe its the UX/UI aspect, i don;t know...i have not run a homeserver since like maybe 2019 or so? But nowadays, i have less interest in running a homeserver, and as far using the various clients: meh. Element feels bloated, and others either might be more snappier but might have an odd bug, or don't implement all features that might be expected, etc.

So, last year i tried to play briefly with Prosody server to re-acquaint myself with xmpp...and it wasn't so bad. Not as great as i expected for this day ana age, bbut not terrible. The server setup felt like i needed to study a bunch of different docs...and ultimately was smoother than expected....so i think documentation is either outdated, or was written a little less clear than expected. That being said, the low resource usage was ridiculously pleasant compared to matrix homeserver! The fact that an xmpp server allows for such scalability on such low resources is a great testament! And, that was prosody, which some folks state is not even as performant, scalable as ejabbered....so they say...so wow, that's impressive if that's true. Regardless, xmpp servers that can run on such low resource hardware but enable so many users to chat...is quite awesome!!! The client side of xmpp was a different matter; i wasn't so happy. I blame myself because maybe there might have been plugins that maybe i didn't install correctly on server side, i don't know...but it felt not as easy as i expected. The clients were a little disappointing; again not terrible but not great.

Maybe i'm spoiled? Or, maybe i did too much wrong? But if that's the case, the maybe there's an opportunity for better documentaiton? I don't know....i really like both matrix and xmpp because both live in the realm of free and open source software.....so i really want both or either to succeed. I want to live in a world where we are not beholden to only proprietary options, like whatsapp, crappy sms/text messaging, etc. I want to give props to all the folks who made and maintain all aspects of xmpp...as much as i am whining, i don't want to take away from all the hard work that they have freely given; super props to them!!!

What i really want is a modern, free and open source version of IRC, with plenty of modern features (E2EE, file uploads, presence detection, etc.), decent desktop and mobile clients, easy server installation and management, and said server-side software would ideally not need such beefy hardware to run...Or, is my wish too far fetched?

chickensong
4d ago
1 reply
I think we all want that. The fact that it doesn't exist is an indicator that it isn't trivial to build. All those modern features are at odds with performance.
mxuribe
3d ago
> ...it isn't trivial to build. All those modern features are at odds with performance.

I suppose both points make sense!

toastal
4d ago
1 reply
> can run on such low resource hardware

This is what frees a barrier to decentralization & actually owning one’s data. A few of my friends are now running their own single-user or small XMPP servers since it doesn’t use much in terms of resources or storage in comparison.

> The server setup felt like i needed to study a bunch of different doc

I believe this is what the Snikket project is trying to be. That said, XMPP servers are used for a lot more than just chat which is why most of them don’t have good defaults for merely chatting with friends since that isn’t the only or a generic enough use case (XMPP is behind Zoom, Jitsi, Fortnite, etc.).

> The clients were a little disappointing; again not terrible but not great

True. But I appreciate that there are many options & most features gracefully fallback even on TUI clients (like ‘reactions’ just being a message reply with a single emoji). If Element adds a feature (like polls), the other clients, the new feature just doesn’t show up. For a web client, the NLNet funding is really giving a boost to Movim as a reasonable alternative to Discord that is self-hostable & federated so users—taking back the meaning of “join my server” to literally mean someone’s server & without needing to create another account just to join that server.

As for the wish… this is what XMPP MUCs are—IRC with niceties like moderation, optional encryption, & file uploads. You said yourself the resources for servers is small & for your stated use case, most existing clients can handle being IRC+features while also not being centralized unlike IRC.

mxuribe
3d ago
> ...that isn’t the only or a generic enough use case (XMPP is behind Zoom, Jitsi, Fortnite, etc.

Great point! I forgot that xmpp can/is used for other use cases that are not just chat.

Also I guess I should be a little more forgiving about the MUCs, and client features in particular because you are right that fallbacks tend to be graceful.

leetnewb
3d ago
1 reply
One thing I would note on the client side of xmpp - there does seem to be a lot of work happening under the surface. Snikket is working on an SDK to streamline modern client development. There are a couple of alpha stage clients written on it already, and maturatoin of the SDK should lower the bar for pushing clients forward.

Also independently, Movim keeps advancing and Libervia is doing a ton of cool work. I'm sure I am missing others.

mxuribe
3d ago
I had only heard about Snikket as I was spinning down my xmpp experiment... maybe I can take a look nowadays (including moving and others). Thanks for sharing!
tcfhgj
3d ago
> I tried out an alpha client once & can’t get the stupid pop-up about unverified devices to go away now.

Open app with device management (e.g. Element Desktop) and remove the unverified devices you don't intend to verify.

Regarding XMPP: With the lack of Cross Signing, key backup and consistent storage of messages, it can't be expected to provide the convenience Matrix does for the foreseeable future - just my personal opinion. The matrix-rust-sdk should it also make easy to get started with a client.

seszett
3d ago
I like XMPP and I use it with my family (with the Conversation client) but the web interface (converse.js) if pretty rough.

I would like to replace Matrix at work with an XMPP server, but to convince my colleagues I would have to show something better than that :/

Bayaz
4d ago
1 reply
I have a private matrix server for a few friends. Whenever someone logs on with a new device or client it lists them as being unverified. Eventually it goes away. I really have no idea at what point verification occurs.
jeroenhd
4d ago
They verify their device. Usually means opening Matrix on a other device, clicking the pop-up, and scanning a QR code or matching emoji. One device signs proof of verification of the other and exchanges encryption keys so the new device can read encrypted conversations.

Unverified devices are indistinguishable from a hacker logging in through credential stuffing/password leaks until verification is done.

It's a process similar to adding devices to Signal or WhatsApp, except with Matrix you can still log in without having physical access to another device. Useful if you only ever visit unencrypted rooms perhaps.

iqihs
4d ago
8 replies
I think Matrix as a protocol has been pretty ineffective, as their top priority seems to be keeping data permanent and duplicated. Both performance and privacy are at the bottom of their priority list. The one good thing I can say about it is that encryption of message contents is enabled by default in conversations and available in groups, but that's about it - nothing else is, or can be, encrypted. In other words, every participating server knows who is talking to who, and how much, and when, and in what rooms, and what those rooms' names are, and what those rooms' descriptions are, and who moderates them, etc.

Meanwhile, an app like Signal can do none of that, and that's by design.

If you're looking for a privacy oriented messaging system, you'd best look elsewhere.

I'm new to Matrix and found this comment on reddit. How much of it is accurate and does it actually contribute to whether or not the future of the protocol is promising?

xethos
4d ago
2 replies
@Arathorn would be an objectively better person to discuss this, but the Redditor isn't completely off the mark: metadata is (currently) not nearly as well-guarded on Matrix compared to Signal.

However, work is ongoing to improve the situation; more importantly, Matrix is a different threat model (in my opinion), and allows for different trade-offs.

When I use Signal, I have to trust Signal's servers and their admin team. With Matrix, we get to keep trust circles smaller (friends and family on smaller servers, where we already trust the people running them). We have no hard requirement to federate either - if I want something just for people I know, we leak less data than Signal does to the outside world. We also get to host Matrix servers in areas we're comfortable with, whether that's our living room, or any nation that isn't America.

Matrix isn't perfect, but I appreciate how quickly they're improving, and the areas they're focusing on.

tptacek
4d ago
2 replies
Matrix and Signal have very different objectives. Matrix wants to be an encrypted IRC or Slack. Signal wants to be a secure messenger you can entrust your life to. They are both worthy projects; there's not as much overlap as people think.
pkulak
4d ago
2 replies
I trust my life to the server I host in my own closet. People can lecture me all day long about the superiority of Signal's encryption, and I'll just slowly rotate my chair to point my index finger at the Dell OptiPlex behind me.
tptacek
4d ago
1 reply
That's fine. You'll pardon me if I'm unwilling to trust my own safety to your Dell OptiPlex. Whatever you think about Signal, the fact is that Matrix --- which is what the thread is about --- makes decisions that serve the IRC/Slack use case at the expense of the "absolute most possible safety" use case. That makes sense: some of larger-scale group chat's goals are in tension with "absolute most possible safety".
dwohnitmok
4d ago
2 replies
I wouldn't characterize Signal as "absolute most possible safety" as you are implicitly doing here.

I would probably characterize Signal as "most possible safety for the average nontechnical user" which entails trade-offs against absolute safety for certain UX affordances (and project governance structures that allow for these decisions to be made), because if said affordances are not given, the average nontechnical user either simply won't use Signal or will accidentally end up making themselves even less secure.

tptacek
4d ago
1 reply
I couldn't be less interested in arguing with you about Signal. My point is that it doesn't make as much sense to compare Signal and Matrix as people think it does. Large-scale group chat is intrinsically less safe than the kind of chats most people use Signal for. You can substitute whichever other secure messenger you prefer.

This "average nontechnical user" stuff, though, miss me with. For 2 decades people have been encouraging the "average nontechnical user" to do incredibly unsafe things on the premise that any kind of message encryption is the best alternative to sending plaintext messages. No: telling people not to send those kinds of messages at all, unless you're dead certain the channel they're using is safe, is the only responsible recommendation.

JuniperMesos
3d ago
I have started using Signal for large group chats in the past year or so, after spending many years using it as an encrypted replacement for SMS texting. Signal has gotten noticeably better at the UX of group chats during that time, although I am still annoyed that they basically require you to use their client to access the network in the name of security. I can't easily run a legitimate 3rd party Signal client on my server, and when I've tried I've accidentally broken my access to my account on my phone, which is quite annoying since I use Signal pretty frequently.

I want there to be something like Matrix that is designed first and foremost as a large-group realtime chat program (really, as a meaningful FOSS alternative to Discord), and it should make different tradeoffs than Signal. I'm actually willing to entirely forego encryption, at least at first, to make this happen - IRC wasn't encrypted and Discord isn't either, and these are things I want to replace with something better. Matrix's UX is still noticeably worse than Discord's, and I'm skeptical that the ostensible security gains from the encryption are worth it, especially given the problems with device verification UX, metadata leakage, and the fact that as the number of people in a group chat grows the possibility that they will take a screenshot of the encrypted message sent to them and leak it to the press grows higher and higher.

Forgeties79
4d ago
This is basically the same logic for why I often recommend Plex over jellyfin to people. Yes Plex is not proper self hosting. Yes Plex the org is making increasingly questionable decisions. But for people who want to get away from the major streaming services and maybe even want to dip their toes into something that resembles self hosting, there really is no other option like Plex. It’s so insanely turnkey and easy to install on every device. You also don’t have to worry about exposing your network if you don’t know what you’re doing.

If nothing else it’s an incredible foot in the door for a lot of people to make the leap to something like jellyfin later.

NegativeK
4d ago
1 reply
I obviously can't speak for you, but there's not a freaking chance I'd trust my life to the servers I run.

To go maybe too literal: when I'm working on machines that could physically eat me, I don't trust myself with just one off switch -- I want redundancy. And since computers are horrible piles of ridiculous complexity, the closest I can get (and not really get close) is trusting some of the top minds to overthink the crap out of it in a way that I can't do with the systems I manage.

But again, YMMV.

pkulak
4d ago
Well, when US-EAST-1 went down, my family was still chatting. Same with Cloudflare. Even if I lose internet, we can all chat so long as we’re on the network.

That said, the uptime is still probably worse than Signal. I didn’t mean trust the reliability. I meant the security.

butvacuum
4d ago
When you leak that much metadata, it's disenginious to call it encrypted.
Gigachad
4d ago
In the real world friends and family aren’t running their own matrix servers. At most they are signed up for whatever random one came up first in the search results.

So you end up with a similar problem to Mastodon where either you are facing problematic or inexperienced admins, servers shutting down, and everyone centralising on the main server.

Klaus23
4d ago
2 replies
It's pretty accurate. I was a bit shocked when I saw that room names were not encrypted. I thought that was such a basic privacy requirement, and it's not hard to implement when you already have message encryption.

Matrix seems to have a lot of these structural flaws. Even the encryption praised in the Reddit post has had problems for years where messages don't decrypt. These issues are patched slowly over time, but you shouldn't need to show me a graph demonstrating how you have slowly decreased the decryption issues. There shouldn't be any to begin with! If there are, the protocol is fundamentally broken.

They are slowly improving everything, with the emphasis on "slowly". It will take years until everything is properly implemented. To answer the question of whether the future of the protocol is promising, I would say yes. This is in no small part because there are currently no real alternatives in this area. If you want an open system, this is the best option.

jeroenhd
4d ago
1 reply
The decryption problems I've experienced have a been fixed a while ago. There was a push to fix these last year or the year before that, and at this point I'm pretty sure only some outdated or obscure clients with old encryption liberties still suffer from these problems.

The huge amount of unencrypted metadata is pretty hard to avoid with Matrix, though. It's the inevitable result of stuffing encryption into an unencrypted protocol later, rather than designing the protocol to be encrypted from the start.

I've had similar issues with other protocols too, though. XMPP wouldn't decrypt my messages (because apparently I used the wrong encryption for one of the clients), and Signal got into some funky state where I needed to re-setup and delete all of my old messages before I could use it again. Maintained XMPP clients (both of them) seem to have fixed their encryption support and Signal now has backups so none of these problems should happen again, but this stuff is never easy.

Klaus23
3d ago
Yes, messaging protocols, especially federated ones, are never easy. I just wish we could have skipped the three or four years when Matrix was basically unusable for the average user because end-to-end encryption was switched on by default. Perhaps a clean redesign would have been better. Now they have to change the wheels on a moving car.
tcfhgj
3d ago
1 reply
> These issues are patched slowly over time, but you shouldn't need to show me a graph demonstrating how you have slowly decreased the decryption issues. There shouldn't be any to begin with! If there are, the protocol is fundamentally broken.

This is wrong, because afaik these errors happen due to corner cases and I really don't like the attitude here.

Klaus23
3d ago
1 reply
It's not just a corner case. The issue was so prevalent for years that if it was limited to just a few corner cases, the entire protocol must consist of nothing but corner cases.

It frequently occurred on the "happy path": on a single server that they control, between identical official clients, in the simplest of situations. There really is no excuse.

I'm not saying that building a federated chat network with working encryption is easy. On the contrary, it is very hard. I'm sure the designers had the best intentions, but they simply lacked the competence to overcome such a challenge and ensure the protocol was mostly functional right from the outset.

tcfhgj
3d ago
1 reply
> The issue was so prevalent for years that if it was limited to just a few corner cases, the entire protocol must consist of nothing but corner cases.

for me it wasn't really; occasionally it would hit me, but mostly it worked, and I have been using it for encrypted communication since 2020.

> It frequently occurred on the "happy path": on a single server that they control, between identical official clients, in the simplest of situations. There really is no excuse.

There still can be technical corner cases in the interaction of clients

a talk for details: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUSucR2axWI

> I'm sure the designers had the best intentions, but they simply lacked the competence to overcome such a challenge and ensure the protocol was mostly functional right from the outset.

well, even if this was true, they still were brave enough to try and eventually pull it off eventually. Perhaps complain to the competent people who haven't even tried.

Klaus23
3d ago
1 reply
> for me it wasn't really; occasionally it would hit me, but mostly it worked, and I have been using it for encrypted communication since 2020.

I think the statistic said that around 10% of users receive at least one "unable to decrypt" message on any given day. That's a lot. Perhaps not for devs who are accustomed to technical frustrations, but for non-technical people, that's far too frequent. Other messaging systems worked much better.

> There still can be technical corner cases in the interaction of clients

> a talk for details: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUSucR2axWI

You linked to a German political talk show. If you wanted to show me the talk in which the guy listed reasons such as "network requests can fail and our retry logic is so buggy that it often breaks" and "the application regularly corrupts its internal state, so we have to recover from that, which is not always easily possible", let's just say I wasn't that impressed.

> well, even if this was true, they still were brave enough to try and eventually pull it off eventually. Perhaps complain to the competent people who haven't even tried.

It isn't a problem that the Matrix team are not federated networking experts. At the time, they had already received millions in investment. That's not FAANG money, but it's still enough to contract the right people to help design everything properly.

I'm not mad at them. Matrix was a bold effort that clearly succeeded in its aims. I'm just disappointed that it was so unreliable for such a long time, and still is to some extent.

tcfhgj
3d ago
Correct link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHzh2Y7BABQ

> I wasn't that impressed.

If you think, I want to impress you, you are wrong.

this_user
4d ago
2 replies
I think part of the problem may be that Matrix is just pretty complex, because of its modular and decentralised design. Meanwhile, Signal is much more centralised and monolithic. And while they have added a few features over the years, its core functionality is relatively simple, and they were initially just focussed on getting that right.
AJ007
3d ago
The "decentralization" of Matrix is true in some respects, and false in others. Which would be ok, but if all of the complex architecture and issues are in the support of being decentralized, then this seems like an early planning failure.

My suspicion is the real problem that exists now originated from the bifurcation of desktop and mobile. Mobile broke the true p2p decentralization which was easy on desktop, and the split between Android and iOS makes it worse. Users expect an experience on iOS and Android which has parity with desktop. And the entire thing has to be as good as Discord.

I've taken a hard look at all of the truly open source alternative messaging options, and almost nothing handles multi-platform very well. Even when you expand it to commercial options, for a very long time, all of the Slack clones had mediocre mobile apps -- which basically was a death sentence if you weren't Microsoft. This is true today, but I expect it will change in 2026 and onward with the rapid increase in software development driven by AI agents.

Gigachad
4d ago
I remember reading some of the pdf on state management in matrix. The math and logic behind working out what the current name of the group chat is made my head spin.
kachapopopow
4d ago
it's pretty on point, it's mostly a "trusted" platform as long as you trust the host with the messages between two people (or more?) being (optionally) encrypted.
sroerick
4d ago
Pretty crazy, right? It almost seems like a honeypot
jrm4
3d ago
Okay so -- this and Bluesky.

REALLY feels like no one talks about how "permanent and duplicated" is very much an anti-feature if autonomy and safety and freedom is your goal?

Like, no actually - automatically saving everything all the time is bad. I thought we sort of already knew that.

RicoElectrico
3d ago
I wish FOSS communities that want an alternative to Discord or Slack ditched Matrix altogeter. It sucks for that. Better use Zulip or Mattermost, both of which are self-hostable.

Edit: I looked up and apparently Mattermost would be out of the question for their feature downgrades in the community version as of late...

the_gipsy
3d ago
To be fair: signal means everybody trusts one central authority. Doesn't matter that it's a foundation or non-profit or whatever.

And: a phone number is still required, a PIN is not, so by default it's susceptible to phone/SIM spoofing attacks. This one really boggles my mind, it's not that I personally am afraid of this vector, but I don't understand why they would insist on phone numbers at this point.

unbolted3032
4d ago
11 replies
I decommissioned my server 3 months ago and migrated my community back to IRC. I still had the IRC Podman containers kicking around, so that was easy.

I dealt with ~monthly issues around my devices not being correctly verified, messages not correctly decrypting, and various other rough UX edges. There seemed to be a lot of velocity in the beginning but the last couple of years have addressed approximately nothing in terms of the UX and it's a crying shame as Matrix/Element (I no longer fully understand the difference/relationship between these entities) had a lot of potential.

Sanzig
4d ago
5 replies
Let's not forget the shock image spam issue. Public Matrix channels are plagued with horrendous shock images (including CSAM). The development team seems to not care, they have a proposal for "policy servers" which is still incomplete and not supported by all server implementations.
joecool1029
4d ago
2 replies
It’s terrible. I had to leave most channels on the matrix.org namespace because they won’t properly moderate their own server from CSAM. I dropped to 7 day media retention to lower legal liability on my own server, since there’s no way to know when one of my users will be in a channel hit with abuse.

At this point the majority use case I have for matrix is to bridge to IRC with heisenbridge and be able to use signal on my laptop through mautrix-signal and nheko. The number of native channels I’m in continues to shrink.

indolering
4d ago
1 reply
Have they done anything to mitigate this? Like client side filters or message scanning for new direct messages?
Arathorn
3d ago
The main things are https://matrix.org/blog/2025/04/introducing-policy-servers/ (for flexible serverside moderation) and the rest of the stuff in https://matrix.org/blog/2025/02/building-a-safer-matrix/. Clientside filters already existed, but given they only apply per client and there are a lot of different clients, we focused on serverside filtering.
mystraline
3d ago
I know the matrix honeserver I use has taken our recommendations to NOT cache images from matrix.org due to their non-existent moderation. And the admin put out a bulletin to also recommend disable downloading images as well.

There's also the split room bug (feature?) that allows banned users to still be in rooms where the honeserver doesnt ban them. And then, distributes connection shows ongoing banned content (primarily, you guessed it, CSAM) and the better-moderating admins can't do anything about it.

I'm basically in a few well moderated rooms (Gnuradio, other topics). They do extraordinarily well in not getting many trolls, and for garbage collection.

The only one we're seeing spammed is for some cryptocurrency site Liquid something. But its just commercial spam.

teekert
4d ago
5 replies
Let's not forget a team making a great free product. Yeah we can complain about filthy materials but imagine you working hard to build something as nice as Matrix/Element only for these low-lifes to do these horrible things to it. How annoying it must be to have to spend time battling such things.
whatevaa
4d ago
1 reply
If you make anything public, you will have to deal with it. You should be mentally prepared for that from the start.
johnisgood
3d ago
2 replies
I mean I could just as easily say you as an user should be mentally prepared.

Matrix is developing a privacy IM, you do not really moderate that now, do you? Leave the rooms that raise your cortisol level.

jacquesm
3d ago
1 reply
> I mean I could just as easily say you as an user should be mentally prepared.

Users tend to be less aware of these things than the operators of such servers (or at least, that's how it should be).

> Matrix is developing a privacy IM, you do not really moderate that now, do you?

No, but you can create mechanisms for the users to flag problematic accounts.

> Leave the rooms that raise your cortisol level.

The filth will follow the users. That's the whole game plan here: to cause grief.

johnisgood
3d ago
I have been in many rooms that are completely fine; technical rooms.

As for flagging problematic accounts: how would that work in a decentralized E2EE system, and do you think it cannot be abused? What would you want them to do if I flag your account a million times? Keep in mind they probably may not be able to keep up with it, nor do I expect them to. Additionally, you still should be able to use the service due to its decentralized, privacy-preserving nature, so the worst thing that may happen is getting banned from a Matrix instance, or a room.

Teever
3d ago
2 replies
Wait a minute, doesn't receiving child porn even if unintentionally like the situation above open up the receiver to legal liability?

It isn't reasonable to expect users to be 'mentally prepared' to have their devices download child porn because they visited a chat room for support about the chat app they're using.

johnisgood
3d ago
2 replies
As someone else have said, then that is an issue with the law.

Imagine someone sending you a link that you open and then now you have child porn or whatever else on your hard drive, cached. Quite a shitty situation to be in.

Perhaps avoid non-technical rooms or rooms in which you do not trust people.

gosub100
3d ago
1 reply
And then imagine you have windows with recall enabled (that you repeatedly disabled but keeps enabling after updates), and/or cloud backup with automatic CSAM detection. You're screwed
johnisgood
3d ago
Yes, and we are screwed either way if we use Windows with Recall, or even in general.

I would not consider Windows secure at all, and it seems futile to use a privacy-oriented IM on Windows, it really defeats the purpose.

Imagine using Windows with Recall enabled that takes screenshots of your conversations all the time. You can be using the most effective IM for privacy but it would not help.

So what is the moral of the story? We have shitty laws, and you should not use Windows. :P

lukan
3d ago
1 reply
"Imagine someone sending you a link that you open and then now you have child porn or whatever else on your hard drive, cached. Quite a shitty situation to be in."

I guess the correct legal approach would be to go to police with this.

And the correct technical approach to keep online spaces clean, is the ability to kick, mute or ban people who violate the rules.

Saying, "just be mentally prepared" sounds to me like accepting it. Well, I don't. I go somewhere else.

johnisgood
3d ago
1 reply
I did not use the term "mentally prepared" because I thought it was appropriate, I was just quoting the other guy. I find it silly, too. I will not "accept" child porn or other degeneracies.

> Saying, "just be mentally prepared" sounds to me like accepting it. Well, I don't. I go somewhere else.

Exactly! You should be going somewhere else. Another Matrix instance, or at the very least another room, and you will be fine.

lukan
3d ago
"You should be going somewhere else. Another Matrix instance, or at the very least another room, and you will be fine."

Well, but I never decided to hang around for longer. Maybe it is because the moderation tools are simply lacking? I would miss the option of not restricting certain users to send pictures in a group.

tcfhgj
3d ago
I'd blame the law if it does.
jacquesm
3d ago
2 replies
It is super annoying but you have to be very naive to not understand that anything that can be abused will be abused so you need to bake in countermeasures from day #1 or you might as well not bother with the launch.
tcfhgj
3d ago
with that strategy you won't launch ever if you have limited budget, especially because Matrix isn't exactly a system/protocol off the self
teekert
3d ago
Aren't there any moderators in those channels? I have 0 issues in the channels I am in (some podcasting channels, some tech, some FOSDEM.)

I find a lot of value in Element as is, I'm glad they bothered.

Aurornis
3d ago
1 reply
> Let's not forget a team making a great free product.

I am fully appreciative of the work that goes into making a product like this, but I’m also tired of this mentality that nobody is allowed to talk about the problems with the product. Even simple comments from people who tried to use the product but encountered show-stopping issues are getting downvoted into gray text in this thread.

This mentality that we must only speak praise and cannot speak of problems because a product is free is further off putting. I’ve given Matrix/Element an honest try many times because some of the OSS projects I’m involved with use it, but month after month it’s the most troublesome of all of the apps in this space that I use, and it’s not even close. If I’ve gone a month without dealing with Matrix and I have to open it again it feels like there’s a 50:50 chance something is going to either be inexplicably broken or cause problems even though I thought I finally had it all working last time.

The contrast between how hard we’re told that Matrix is the great and superior option and the reality of what it’s like to use it as a casual or occasional user is really wearing me out on the project.

eredengrin
3d ago
> I’m also tired of this mentality that nobody is allowed to talk about the problems with the product

I think there's a pretty big difference between constructive criticism vs statements like "The development team seems to not care". To me, it seems pretty clear that the team absolutely cares, but they are also a small and very underfunded team, and things take time. Assuming the worst intentions of a team is the problem and is disappointing to see here.

> I’ve given Matrix/Element an honest try many times because some of the OSS projects I’m involved with use it, but month after month it’s the most troublesome of all of the apps in this space that I use, and it’s not even close.

I don't doubt that, but it does not resonate with me. There have been a few hiccups over the years, eg the database corruption earlier this year (unrelated to the protocol or synapse) resulting in stuck invites, but overall I've had quite a good experience. Far less problems than Teams, and even slack has had issues (mainly, notifications not happening) that I have somehow avoided with Element, although I am aware others have had issues in this area. There are even some things I do with matrix that are simply not possible/practical with the others to begin with.

gmerc
3d ago
A product as unsuitable for the adversarial internet as ChatGPT and coding agents
wkat4242
3d ago
It's free for us but not for businesses. I think this is why they are ruining the UX, because they're adapting it to their target market, like making it more like MS Teams.
BrenBarn
4d ago
1 reply
It's kind of wild to me that they haven't prioritized this more. This issue has been open for almost exactly 6 years: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec/issues/565 . This one even longer: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec/issues/836 . The Matrix permission system still doesn't even have a way to say "sending images is not allowed" (either per room or per user).
tcfhgj
3d ago
1 reply
maybe because of limited budget and more urgent issues? who knows
chrisjj
3d ago
2 replies
And what could be more urgent than this?
tcfhgj
3d ago
having a usable technical foundation, staying financially afloat
Arathorn
3d ago
building a more flexible solution for blocking content, rather than hardcoded rules like "no images": https://matrix.org/blog/2025/04/introducing-policy-servers/
irusensei
3d ago
1 reply
Considering the thread context I'm curious how would IRC help with that other than people running command line or TUI clients?

Also do you want the development team to moderate self hosted chat servers? How would that work?

Macha
3d ago
Must irc clients do not automatically download or show images which means joining a room and spamming a bunch of them is less impactful on recipients and so less appealing to trolls, so it doesn’t happen.
tcfhgj
3d ago
policy servers show that they indeed do care
amluto
4d ago
1 reply
You did better than I did. I installed the recommended Element app, created an account on matrix.org, tried to send a message to another user, and… gave up. Every try got stuck and eventually created an empty room or whatever they call it. I have literally never succeeded in sending or receiving a single message.
trueno
3d ago
2 replies
There really is no winning in the org comms/chat apps space when it comes to OSS. Matrix+element, rocket, mattermost, Zulip and so on.. feels like there’s either massive gotchas on free/self hosted or it’s wildly complicated to configure and set up. I’ve been thinking about this a lot. Hosting a private irc server and you lose out on rich embeds and will need your own pastebin-like service to use, video conferencing is probably a big challenge, the need for a mobile app at many workplaces. Bleh. I look at something like slack and I’m like damn that is literally irc+ and I just hate that I don’t have the skills to build up something completely free that I could host at my org. Teams literally owned everyone when they started bundling it in and rug pulling slack. Ofc the execs at my workplace were like “hell yeah this is great” but so did my IT dept. I was so pissed. Out of the box it’s just instantly compliant which was a major driver then of course at the time it was seen as a free offering (I know they’ve since had to decouple that) which completely nuked slack at our org. I can’t even believe I’m saying this but teams actually makes collaborating slower. No one on my team uses the channels we all pin chat groups and exclusively use that. It’s literally garbage. I guess I’m just venting, I really hoped I could find something in the oss world to supplant this and I think the bar for organizations is: compliance, chat, video conf and sigh the ability to schedule in outlook.
tabbott
3d ago
What do you see as the gotchas with Zulip for community use? Zulip is 100% open-source, and we sponsor our hosted services (mobile notifications, etc.) free for OSS projects.
DANmode
3d ago
“Compliance” with what?
nine_k
4d ago
1 reply
If IRC suffices for your purposes, then Matrix, with its encryption and all, is apparently overkill.

If I were to upgrade an IRC-based community to something newer and richer, I'd go with Jabber, well-known, well-established, with a ton of various clients and several servers. Yes, it's not ideal, but it's still a massive upgrade compared to IRC, if your server supports a good list XEPs and your community members agree to use non-esoteric clients that also support them.

ErroneousBosh
3d ago
1 reply
> If IRC suffices for your purposes, then Matrix, with its encryption and all, is apparently overkill.

IRC has encryption too. You run it over TLS.

immibis
3d ago
1 reply
For E2EE there is the very old unofficial and only-partially-secure extension of using Blowfish with a static key.
ErroneousBosh
3d ago
1 reply
I guess it's not end-to-end, it's decrypted on the server.

Presumably if you want to send an encrypted message from one literal endpoint to another, you'd use some other technology. I'm prepared to bet there are enough people doing just that, too.

immibis
3d ago
The extension I just mentioned is E2EE.
phantasmish
3d ago
When I looked into it the complexity of standing up and admin'ing a Matrix server was clearly either a massive "architecture smell" so bad the project was likely long-term doomed, or a deliberate choice to make it terrible to get people to pay for managed hosting.

In either case, that's a no for me dawg.

OberstKrueger
4d ago
Unfortunately how I feel about it too. I gave an honest effort at getting into the ecosystem and tested it out with a few close friends. The rough edges brought the experience down compared to other stuff that “just works”, and losing community support for the IRC bridge took a huge use of my own away from it.
bigfudge
4d ago
It’s that hard even with a user in the loop to press buttons. Verifying bots is even worse and the docs are either non existent or wrong. This is such a shame because element otherwise does exactly what we want but it makes me nervous it’s so badly supported and buggy.
solarkraft
4d ago
> but the last couple of years have addressed approximately nothing in terms of the UX

This sucks to hear. I thought they had made massive improvements in the last year or so (I don't know because I feel too burnt by past experience).

colordrops
4d ago
The rough edges are too much for even very technical users and admins, so there's no way we're going to get friends and family to adopt this.
Timshel
3d ago
Anecdotal but running a server with multiple bridges for multiple years. Had such issues initially but none recently.
tcfhgj
3d ago
> There seemed to be a lot of velocity in the beginning but the last couple of years have addressed approximately nothing in terms of the UX and it's a crying shame as Matrix/Element had a lot of potential.

It still has.

And with Element X they have greatly improved the UX.

Plus utd errors have been reduced by a lot.

That said, I haven't ever had issues with devices not being correctly verified ( I use that feature since it was released - and can still recover the encrypted messages of that time).

BrenBarn
4d ago
I feel they underestimated what the MVP really is and started touting Matrix as great before it was really there, which has backfired and led to disappointment. They also went a bit too overboard on the overgeneralized idea of it being "a decentralized eventually consistent JSON database", which led to a lack of focus on its concrete usability as a chat system. I still use it and it's not bad in some respects, but it's a long, long way away from being able to attract a mass of ordinary users.
octoberfranklin
4d ago
1 reply
This is supposed to be what decentralization looks like?
iamnothere
4d ago
It’s still decentralized. If you read the article this is about cryptographic verification, not anything about ID.
pkulak
4d ago
2 replies
Despite all the gnashing of teeth in this thread, this seems reasonable. This seems to only prevent you from logging into your account, with only a password, NOT verifying it (by dismissing all the prompts asking you to do so), and then sending (and receiving new!) encrypted messages anyway. I've never used an unverified Matrix account in the 6 years that I've been an active user. Verification used to be a bit finicky, but it's pretty seamless now. And once the QR code login stuff is better supported, it will be dead easy.
IlikeKitties
4d ago
1 reply
> Despite all the gnashing of teeth in this thread, this seems reasonable

I think it's not the requirement itself that's the crucible of discussion but the issues are rather that the blog post should have explicitly defined what verification is in it's second sentence and that matrix/element still is barely useable even for reasonably technical users.

pkulak
4d ago
2 replies
> barely useable even for reasonably technical users

My entire family (including my elderly mother) would be very interested to learn how technical they are!

broken-kebab
3d ago
Scale matters. Once you achieve over a hundred of users, you got all the random bugs, and glitches appearing, and you can't guide everyone personally across UX issues. This is when lack of decent documentation, unpolished UI, and even the fact that it uses its own terminology (like "spaces") starts to hurt. I don't mean Synapse/Element combination is bad, but so far it's not great either.
IlikeKitties
4d ago
Argue with the people in this thread that made this argument.
Gigachad
4d ago
1 reply
Doesn’t verification also exchange encryption keys, letting you decrypt messages from before you logged in? I remember that being a huge issue where you would see unable to decrypt messages.

Probably just bad UX to let people skip the verification step.

pkulak
4d ago
1 reply
Yes. If you don’t verify, every conversation is empty.
joecool1029
4d ago
1 reply
But it also asks for recovery key and complains about it being out of sync until entered even if you do the verification step! Entirely possible to only get a partial recovery of messages until this is entered.
jeroenhd
4d ago
That's not normal. It doesn't happen on any of my accounts or clients. Verification takes a moment if you're in a lot of rooms, but it exchanges all keys.
solarkraft
4d ago
This is a good thing. It is (was?) all too inviting to leave clients unverified because verification is (was?) hard and annoying.

The code examples I'm aware of for clients using the first-party library also leave verification and E2EE out, FWIW.

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