Back to Home11/12/2025, 11:35:41 PM

Valve is about to win the console generation

637 points
529 comments

Mood

excited

Sentiment

positive

Category

tech

Key topics

Valve

gaming consoles

Steam Deck

Debate intensity80/100

The article argues that Valve is poised to win the current console generation with its Steam Deck and related ecosystem.

Snapshot generated from the HN discussion

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Very active discussion

First comment

-8540s

Peak period

141

Day 1

Avg / period

53.3

Comment distribution160 data points

Based on 160 loaded comments

Key moments

  1. 01Story posted

    11/12/2025, 11:35:41 PM

    6d ago

    Step 01
  2. 02First comment

    11/12/2025, 9:13:21 PM

    -8540s after posting

    Step 02
  3. 03Peak activity

    141 comments in Day 1

    Hottest window of the conversation

    Step 03
  4. 04Latest activity

    11/15/2025, 1:49:48 AM

    4d ago

    Step 04

Generating AI Summary...

Analyzing up to 500 comments to identify key contributors and discussion patterns

Discussion (529 comments)
Showing 160 comments of 529
miohtama
6d ago
3 replies
So no Half Life 3? (':
juris
6d ago
2 replies
Rumor has it that it’d be released with the VR set in 2026 ;)
embedding-shape
6d ago
1 reply
It'd be a good plan. Make HL3 a VR game since you built VR experience by making Alyx, take it to the next level by launching your own VR headset, everything is perfectly made together and HL3 launch would be as big if not bigger than GTA, and you optimize it for your own hardware.
Orygin
5d ago
1 reply
HL3 is most likely not a VR game as Valve said they aren't working on a first party VR title (plus data mining seems to confirm). Plus they already have Alyx as the masterpiece, and it was already made with their own VR headset in mind: the Valve Index.

Maybe HLX will have some kind of VR interaction possible, as they want to push technology further with each Half life game.

embedding-shape
5d ago
1 reply
Valve also said something like "ARM gaming won't be a thing for us for a very long time", but seems tides can change :) I wouldn't put too much weight into any publisher/developer saying what they aren't doing, even if they were working on HL3, they'd keep that under very tight wraps.
Orygin
5d ago
1 reply
I mean, there are plenty of info available on the status of HL3 (code named HLX) and all point to it not being a VR title.

Also I don't think ARM is really a thing for them, even now. They want to support running software on the headset, and sure why not enable compatibility layers to play some small games, but the end goal is clearly streaming from a PC. Maybe if some good ARM cpu hit the market they will pivot, but up until recently "ARM gaming" meant mobile phones.

embedding-shape
5d ago
1 reply
> there are plenty of info available on the status of HL3 (code named HLX) and all point to it not being a VR title

Anything besides rumors? AFAIK, there is absolutely zero official information beyond the rumor mill.

> Also I don't think ARM is really a thing for them, even now.

I mean, then you're just looking the other way intentionally, they're quite literally adding support for ARM now, https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2025/11/codeweavers-launch-a-n... That's not something you do on a whim, it's a calculated step towards something.

And they're clearly setting up the new VR head to both do standalone gameplay for people without PCs, and to do streaming from PC.

None of the Steam hardware seems to have only a single use in fact, all of them are multipurpose, not sure why the VR headset should be any different, especially when what we know points to it also being multipurpose, quite explicitly so at that.

Orygin
5d ago
> Anything besides rumors? AFAIK, there is absolutely zero official information beyond the rumor mill.

If you count datamining as rumors, then no, nothing else. But the data mining is real data coming from valve so it's more than just "somebody said...". You can find lists of all the references to HLX found in other games, and what that tells us about the game.

>I mean, then you're just looking the other way intentionally, they're quite literally adding support for ARM now

Yes, I'm not looking the other way. But ARM is not their bread and butter and won't be for a good while. I'm fairly certain they are pushing this because they can, not because there is a strategic importance to supporting ARM. Had they been able to use a x86 cpu in the Frame, I'm sure they would have.

Plus, ARM gaming implies games made for ARM running on steam, like on mobile phones. This is "just" an emulation layer to play x86 games on ARM. Just like Apple is doing with the Game Porting Toolkit, and just like Microsoft is doing with their Windows on ARM. Are they really pushing ARM Gaming, or PC gaming or ARM?

qudat
6d ago
1 reply
Wasn’t that Alyx?
accrual
6d ago
Perhaps Alyx walked so HL3 could run.
attendant3446
6d ago
They announced 3 devices. 3! HL3 confirmed :D
thrownawaysz
6d ago
2 replies
>I think it's safe to say that Valve is about to win the next console generation.

For that they need to outsell the Switch 2. 10m units in 6 months.

Good luck with that.

xena
6d ago
2 replies
Nintendo is in its own category in which the other competitor is also Valve. For now Nintendo is winning there.
lawlessone
6d ago
1 reply
I love great graphics but , Nintendo carved a nice big niche out for themselves by recognizing the constant drive for best graphics is a bit of rat race.
esseph
6d ago
3 replies
Nintendo has a tiny library.

Steam does not.

neighbour
6d ago
2 replies
Steam Deck has a tiny install base.

Switch 2 does not.

I'm mostly a PC gamer but let's be real here.

taeric
6d ago
Though, to be fair, my kids steal my Steam Deck from me more often than I try to get the Switch from them. The family share features of the Switch leave a lot to be desired.
esseph
5d ago
People rarely buy a platform for the platform, they buy the platform to do the thing they want to do. A game is just a genre of software.

It is far, far better to have tons of high quality software available for a platform, than to have an amazing platform, but a limited choice of software.

throwaway17_17
6d ago
Nintendo has Mario, Zelda, Kirby, Donkey Kong, Starfox, Pokémon, and a few other less super famous and internationally known IP franchises. The core games and their spinoffs make more games than most children can reasonably expected to play through childhood and early adolescence. That the machine then collects dust doesn’t hurt Nintendo because they already sold it.

Yes Steam has huge library (my ‘want to play’ list is over 100 titles at this point) full of games of all genres, qualities, and niches. But Nintendo has more than enough to do what they have done for years, i.e. sit tight on their beloved IP and dole it out at varying levels of quality on strictly low end hardware and watch their earning go up.

array_key_first
5d ago
Very true, but that tiny library happens to occupy like 80% of the biggest IP.
SchemaLoad
6d ago
3 replies
They have enough first party games which only release on their hardware that people are willing to buy a Switch for nintendo games, and another gaming device for everything else.
throw4847285
6d ago
Or the many people like myself who are willing to buy a Switch for Nintendo games and that's their only console.
surgical_fire
5d ago
Many times what happens is that people buy the Switch for Nintendo games, but since third parties also publish there they just buy games there anyway.

Funnily enough, I own a Switch and a PS5. I mostly buy and play on the Switch while the PS5 main function is getting covered in a thin layer of dust.

throwaway17_17
6d ago
Sad part is that I would be willing to pay a substantial mark up to be able to play some of those first party titles on my PC, but since my kids have a Switch I just settle for using it. So even if I don’t think I’d buy a console just for their games, I’m gonna end up buying it anyway and Nintendo still wins.
bsder
6d ago
1 reply
I'm on a Switch and will not move because of the "Game Key Card" bullshit where you have a card but still don't get the files you need to play them game.

However, Pokemon guarantees a certain amount of Switch 2 sales--Pokemon ZA sold about 6 million units.

sunaookami
6d ago
1 reply
That's not an argument in the Steam Machine's case as you have the same situation there (even worse because you can't resell your games).
bsder
6d ago
1 reply
You aren't wrong.

However, the single digital service that hasn't killed my digital library at some point is Steam. Games that I bought many years ago are still fine. Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo all killed digital games that I bought.

That having been said: I've transferred a lot of my purchasing to GoG. Steam doesn't get the benefit of the doubt anymore.

sunaookami
5d ago
>Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo all killed digital games that I bought.

No? All stores are still online. Some don't allow buying new games anymore (DSi Shop, Wii Shop, PS3 store for example) but redownloading still works.

theoldgreybeard
6d ago
3 replies
They announced 3 products guys. The first time Valve has counted to 3.

Half Life 3 is coming.

preisschild
6d ago
Maybe try Half Life Alyx :P
veunes
4d ago
Careful now, you're gonna jinx it
alexchantavy
5d ago
Been a decade since I've seen a Half Life 3 joke on the internet, thanks for this
altairprime
6d ago
2 replies
By making it immutable out of the box, VAC enforcement because vastly easier and third-party multiplayer anti-cheating kernel rootkits are replaced by “attest that you are unmodified”, which Steam Linux and macOS/tvOS/iOS/iPadOS can do — but not Windows 10/11, because sealed boot functionality is behind Microsoft’s enterprise annual subscription fee paywall. This positions Steam Linux as the monopoly provider of console-gaming Linux, since no one else is doing sealed attestation Linux at scale, and opens the door for multiplayer AAA games to target Steam Linux for their day-one releases as a competitive equal to Xbox/PS5/Switch and as a better defended console platform than Windows PCs. The modifications described by OP are still possible, but won’t be compatible with multiplayer anti-cheating enforcement, which is perfectly fine; boot to sealed for competitive gaming, boot to custom for single player, everyone wins except Microsoft’s Windows division. (If Microsoft hadn’t shot off their foot with Windows 10, they could have simply enabled sealed booting for all 10/11 installations and remained competitive as a gaming platform, but I think they’re done with that business.) Nice to see my predictions pan out and I look forward to buying one :)
SchemaLoad
6d ago
1 reply
Immutability doesn't provide this on it's own. You can load any custom immutable image you want. What game devs want is full boot chain attestation where every part of the OS is measured and verified untampered with, and then to load their own spyware at the highest level.

The only way immutability helps here is you could have two OS images, the users own customisable one, and a clean one. Then when you try to load an anti cheat game, the console could in theory reboot in to the clean one, and pass all the verification checks to load the game.

altairprime
6d ago
1 reply
I am, indeed, assuming that their immutable image can generate attestations chained appropriately. If not, it’s a catastrophic business error on their part to put in all that work, and I don’t consider that degree of failure likely. Definitely curious to see if they can enable the chain on existing Steamdecks or not.
SchemaLoad
6d ago
1 reply
Immutable images provide many benefits that are unrelated to DRM. The main one being that the entire fleet of Steam Decks/Machines are all in a known state. Updates are a matter of pushing a new OS image, you don't have to worry about migrating files, conflicting configurations, strange user changes. And if an update fails, the bootloader shows a screen where you can boot a previous OS image that worked.

It's like docker images for the whole OS. As far as I can tell, the Steam Deck does not have secure boot or any kind of attestation enabled. They have been very forward in marketing it as an open and free system you can do anything on. The hardware does have a TPM that is seemingly unused currently, not sure if it supports some form of secure boot.

altairprime
6d ago
> They have been very forward in marketing it as an open and free system you can do anything on.

Attested sealed images and Open and Free systems have no conflict with each other. Mod it all you want; sure, it’ll generate a different attestation than the shipping sealed image, or if your customizations turn off attestations and/or secure boot, none at all. You do you! Source code releases will never include the private key used to sign them, just as with all open source today, so either the OS’s attestation will be signed by Valve or by you or by someone else. It takes me about sixty seconds to add my own signing key to my PC BIOS today and it would not surprise me to find Valve’s BIOS implements the same, as I’m pretty certain this is basic off-the-shelf functionality on Zen4/Zen5. But, regardless, Free/Open Source is wholly unconcerned by whose release signing key is used; otherwise it wouldn’t be Free/Open! The decision to care about whose release signature is live right now is the gaming server’s decision, not Steam Linux’s, and that decision is not restricted by any OSS-approved license that I’m aware of.

Secure boot attestations plus sealed images do enable “unmodified Valve Linux release” checks to be performed by multiplayer game servers, without needing the user to be locked out of making changes at all. This is already demonstrated in macOS today with e.g. Wallet’s Apple Pay support; you can disable and mod the OS as much as you wish, and certain server features whose attestation requirements require an Apple release signature on the booted OS will suspend themselves when the attestation doesn’t match. When you’re ready to use those servers, you secure boot to an OEM sealed environment and they resume working immediately. This is live, today, on every Apple Silicon (and T2 chipped Intel) device worldwide, and has been available for developers to use for years.

Attestations are, similarly, already available on all AMD devices with a TPM today, so long as the BIOS to OS chain implements Secure Boot — not requires, but implements, as there’s no reason to deny users unsigned OS booting once you’re checking attestation signatures server-side. As you note, it remains to be seen if the Steam Box will make use of it. If they do, it coexists just fine with full reputposability and modifiable, because you can do whatever you like with the device — and, correspondingly, each game may choose to require an unmodified environment to ensure a level playing field without kernel or OS modifications.

It would be a lost opportunity for them if they were not the first fully open OS with a fully secure multiplayer environment that prohibits both third-party cheating mods and third-party DRM rootkits. VAC becomes as simple as a sysctl, and patches are still welcome. Open source for the win, and one step further towards the Linux desktop finally overtaking residential Windows, and thr ability to play console-grade multiplayer without the proliferation of on-device software-only hacks? Yes, please.

(Note that manufacturers who use Secure Boot to lock out device modifications are not in-scope here; that choice has no effect on attestations. Secure Boot is “the OS booted had this checksum and signature” with HSM backing, so that the software can’t lie. It is extremely unlikely that Valve would demand that the OS booted be signed by Valve. That would be no different than Xbox/PS5/Switch, and they’d be leaving a massive competitive advantage over tvOS on the table: device repurposeability.)

killingtime74
6d ago
1 reply
There's hardware level (on a separate device) ability to capture video and send key/mouse now. Impossible to be detected by anticheat. https://wiki.sipeed.com/hardware/en/kvm/NanoKVM_Pro/cua.html
altairprime
6d ago
2 replies
Yes, but that works just as readily on consoles as it does PCs, so it doesn’t affect immutable Steam any more or less than any other gaming steam. Sealed protections are still valuable regardless!
Orygin
5d ago
2 replies
It affects console too, but watch game publishers disable linux support, blaming cheaters while producing graphs that don't support their arguments. While console packs and cheats are rampant, and their game servers even being hacked during competition.
altairprime
5d ago
1 reply
If the status quo doesn’t change, then you’ll be right to have claimed here that the status quo you’ve described won’t change. But that would be worse for all of us. Besides, Linux is an excellent platform for modding games in realtime, no matter what their charts show — so certainly the sealed-attestation stuff would deny them a plausible reason to deny Linux. If Microsoft offered sealed Windows for free, they’d deny unsealed Windows as fast as humanly possible, just to stem the tide of software cheating. The next couple years will be very interesting :)
Orygin
5d ago
I totally agree with you, and I hope the status quo will change. But I'm still skeptical after the Steam Deck success where many games enabled anti cheat, but some did roll back like I said previously.

Attestation could help, but I'm not sure if it goes in the spirit of what Valve tries to do with their OS. The system is open and you can easily access the desktop (it's a first party feature) and thus do what you want. Maybe with a separate verified boot state without desktop but the user experience would not be great.

And in the end, like you said, they'd run to only support sealed attested systems if they could. But cheats have evolved past being run on the computer running the game. Some use DMA or are in between the keyboard/mouse and the usb port. Consoles also have their fair share of cheaters. None of those would be solved by attestation.

Valve has shown recently that it's possible to fight cheaters without kernel AC or attestation. It's just a bit more difficult and intensive so other AC providers won't go the same route.

Hikikomori
5d ago
1 reply
For good reason, anticheat on linux are basically useless. Not that cheating isn't rampant on other platforms, but you don't have to leave the door open on purpose.
Orygin
5d ago
1 reply
They are as useless on linux as they are on Windows. How many cheaters on the latest games with Kernel AC?
Hikikomori
4d ago
Not really. On linux you can just load your cheat as a kernel module and its undetectable by userspace anticheat.

On windows with kernel anti cheat you would need to find some vulnerable driver, sign your own driver, or use external cheats like DMA or vision based. This funnels cheat devs into using a few methods that anti cheat devs can focus on for detection. Is it perfect? Clearly not as there's plenty of cheaters anyway. But its much more effective than what these anti cheats can do on linux.

altairprime
6d ago
gaming *system
29athrowaway
6d ago
5 replies
Steam Controller 1 wasn't good IMO and is now accumulating dust.
esseph
6d ago
1 reply
I asked a coworker today about those and he said it's the only controller he cares to use at all, especially for FPS.
29athrowaway
6d ago
I don't know. I couldn't really get used to it, it has a weird feeling to it.
Normal_gaussian
6d ago
1 reply
Its an odd one; the v1 controller feels cheap and definitely isn't as high fidelity as a modern PS5 controller. It struggled to match the quality of contemporary controllers at the same price point. But the touchpads worked. They shouldn't work, they should be abysmal, but with a little practice they're fantastic.
29athrowaway
6d ago
The rumble is really weird.
lewispollard
6d ago
It's the only controller I use (bar the Steam Deck's built in controller) despite owning plenty of other conventional controllers. Once you get used to it and make use of Steam Input's per-game customisation and mapping it works really well, especially if you treat it as a mouse-like input rather than conventional gamepad.

The only place it suffers for me is games that aren't coded to support simultaneous gamepad and mouse input, which you can work around by mapping the joystick as a keyboard input. Otherwise it's great.

AngryData
6d ago
I still use mine for any driving or flying in games, the stick it does have is super accurate. And for watching movies its a great remote when you arent at the keyboard. If you turn the right pad to simulate a weighted track ball it is what I consider the best Dark Souls controller.
somat
6d ago
The main problem was the missing second stick. It was well built, but for game where a controller is nice touch pads sort of suck compared to a stick and for games where a mouse is nice touch pads sort of suck compared to a mouse. So the only real advantage a touch pad brings is in an environment where you can't bring a mouse. I really liked the extra back buttons. with two sticks that is where all the face buttons should be, on the back.

Somewhat related, but I enjoy the topic. Is how freakishly good the mouse is for FPS type games. If you asked anyone to design a purpose built controller for a first person game they would not come up with a mouse. But somehow despite all odds that thing designed for moving a cursor around the screen is the best controller yet for looking around. Probably something about the huge throw distance compared to any other controller.

mcphage
6d ago
1 reply
Win the console generation in what sense? In outselling the PS5? The Switch 2? I have trouble picturing it being cheaper than either.
m000
5d ago
1 reply
It's the PC games library that will be the catalyst for winning.

On a PC, for $15 a month you can get a HumbleBundle subscription and get 5-6 Steam games to keep yours forever (unlike Playstation Plus "free" games). Plus 3-4 free games/month from Epic (an option, since Valve said they won't lock the hardware). Plus 3-4 games from Amazon Prime Gaming if you are a subscriber. Plus a ton of other discount websites.

Compare this to the average cost of a PS5 title and the walled garden of the Playstation Store. Not to mention that your PS5 library probably won't be playable on PS6.

Yes, AAAA games will still be expensive, but for everything else the Steam Machine will give consoles a run for their money. Cost-conscious gamer are very likely to switch.

mcphage
5d ago
> It's the PC games library that will be the catalyst for winning.

How does the Steam Machine affect this at all, then?

SchemaLoad
6d ago
5 replies
I think the hardest battle is going to be with anti cheat. The anti cheat that developers want basically requires dystopian levels of restrictions which are against everything valve has done on SteamOS so far.

Personally I'd love if we all just went back to playing on personal servers with your real life friends or people you otherwise trust. But I don't think this is would go over well with the average online gamer.

sedatk
6d ago
2 replies
If anti-virus software can function in user mode, anti-cheat software can too. https://www.theverge.com/news/692637/microsoft-windows-kerne...
tintor
5d ago
That depends on Microsoft.
Orygin
5d ago
We know, and the game devs know too. But Kernel anti cheat is not a solution but simply a marketing feature to make their users think they try.

Just seeing all the gamers requesting a kernel AC for CS2, saying VAC does not work; but now they have banned a lot of cheaters and seem to have less cheaters than the new Battlefield which has kernel AC.

Hikikomori
5d ago
What restrictions are you talking about?
squigz
6d ago
> I think the hardest battle is going to be with anti cheat. The anti cheat that developers want basically requires dystopian levels of restrictions which are against everything valve has done on SteamOS so far.

If anyone is capable of moving things along in this space, Valve should be it.

> Personally I'd love if we all just went back to playing on personal servers with your real life friends or people you otherwise trust. But I don't think this is would go over well with the average online gamer.

It's not the gamers that don't want this - although, yes, I do also want the option of matchmaking - it's the companies that don't allow dedicated servers, or shut down the servers after releasing that year's full-price version of the same game.

throwaway17_17
6d ago
Hard agreement from me, but my 16 year old bricked his PC on Sunday trying to enable Valorant’s BS anti-cheat, secure boot required crap. He even knew ahead of time that he couldn’t enable it, but the pull of online gaming turned off his brain. I don’t think we’re gonna win this battle and the war is probably done as well.
beeflet
6d ago
It was fine like 10 years ago
NelsonMinar
6d ago
8 replies
As the article says, "The only way that they could mess this up is with the pricing. ... I'd expect the pricing to be super aggressive." The price to beat is the $400-$500 price point of PS5 and XBox. I'm guessing Valve is going to have a very hard time matching that. We'll know soon enough.
cryzinger
6d ago
2 replies
They don't even necessarily have to beat the PS5/Xbox. I already own the former but sometimes lament not being able to play the many, many PC exclusives out there (or at least nothing released in the past 10+ years since my daily driver laptop has poor specs). Just recently I was wondering whether one of those all-in-one Lenovo desktop boxes would have decent enough specs to play current-gen PC games at halfway decent settings, and my guess is that they don't, but I don't want to go through the hassle of building a PC and definitely don't want a tower with a huge footprint.

Turns out the Steam Machine is exactly what I'm looking for.

hinkley
6d ago
I bought a steam deck to play Age of Wonders 4. Briefly got sucked into playing a Skyrim again.
sedatk
6d ago
Exactly. I have both PS5 and Xbox One X, but I still connect my Steam Deck to TV to play Hades II because the game hasn't come out on those two consoles yet.
throwaway17_17
6d ago
1 reply
I think that realistically, Valve probably only need to be on par with the top of Sony’s offering hardware wise. The ability to have Steam integration on the machine (including the large amount of subpar but very cheap games) will prompt at least some movement. I’d say $800 is probably the high-end of reasonable for price point. I can certain say I’d rather just buy my kids a StreamBox than have to deal with them want full capability PCs.
hugocbp
6d ago
1 reply
I agree. Steam's prices on sales are still mostly unmatched by consoles.

Even if it is a "pricier" PS5-like machine, I'd still buy it and I bet I'd make up the difference in less than a year with just the sales games (including older games I can't play on either console).

I think most of the critiques for this are from people expecting this to be aimed at PC gamers.

I don't think it is. I think it's aimed at people that actually DON'T want to bother with building, buying, upgrading PCs, but still want to play cheap games, older games.

To this day, I can't make my PC turn on with a controller (and I've tried). Making a PC wake up as fast as a Steam Deck from sleep? Impossible.

Those little things will all add up to make this a very nice option for the non-hardcode PC game crowd.

Valve is going to steal a lot of users from console, mostly Xbox. Not PC Gaming enthusiast.

Normal_gaussian
6d ago
Totally. SteamOS is everything here.
pixelatedindex
6d ago
1 reply
$699 (maybe 799 for a more premium model) seems to be a good compromise given what it would take to build a sufficiently similar PC while being close enough to the PS5/Switch. Xbox is practically dead.

I don’t think it needs to compete on price directly, if it can deliver the polish of a console. It can also play up the angle of being a full blown computer.

hinkley
6d ago
You can tell XBox is cooked because Halo was released on the PS5.
dagmx
6d ago
1 reply
They told press that it wouldn’t be console pricing and would match entry level PC. I think it’s going to be $800
johnnyanmac
5d ago
800 is probably already too much for the compromises you need to make. You happily make those compromises for a handheld due to its nature. But a desktop is a harder sell.
nodja
6d ago
3 replies
All they have to do is market the fact you don't have to pay for online.

PS5 + 3 years of PS Plus = $740

Steam Machine = $700

Add/remove more years of PS Plus if the SM turns out to be more/less expensive.

If you add the fact that games on PC are usually cheaper and have sales more often then it's a no brainer, but that won't convince the FIFA and COD players.

Aeolun
6d ago
2 replies
Plus a game catalog that stretches back some 30 years?
pezezin
5d ago
1 reply
More like 50 years if you consider emulators (RetroArch is available on Steam).
culi
5d ago
1 reply
It doesn't even need to be available on Steam to be fair. You can run whatever games you want. You could even run a Nintendo Switch emulator if you want
pezezin
5d ago
True. And that is the strength of the PC platform, its openness and being able to run whatever you want.
wpm
6d ago
And +X years, because you could write your own games for it and install them without begging for permission from Valve.
tapoxi
6d ago
3 replies
This system won't run FIFA, GTA Online, Battlefield, Valorant or CoD, it's a nonstarter for many.

Sure you don't need to subscribe to PS+, but that's somewhat easier to swallow since PS+ gives you games with the subscription.

I'm still interested in this for playing older games but I have a Steam Deck and it still isn't remotely as seamless as my Switch or PS5.

cirelli94
6d ago
3 replies
> This system won't run FIFA, GTA Online, Battlefield, Valorant or CoD, it's a nonstarter for many.

That's largely known now but still a bummer. I wonder if anything will ever change in this area and if Valve will be able to pressure game editors or create an anti-cheat so good and for any platform to be able to change something.

johnnyanmac
5d ago
Don't see why they'd risk it. They already had to reduce their cut just to attract players like Activision and Take Two onto their platform.

Also, making anti cheat on Linux feels like the most Anti-Linux thing to do. But I don't play many multiplayer games, so I have no skin in the game.

culi
5d ago
Steam Machine is just a PC. You can dual boot or use a VM or use Wine/Proton .

It can be involved but it's certainly possible

Hikikomori
5d ago
Valve can't even do it for cs2 on windows.
silveraxe93
6d ago
1 reply
Why not? You can just install windows on it.
theshrike79
5d ago
1 reply
"Just", YMMV.

It has a custom motherboard for example, which may or may not be supported by Microsoft.

_flux
5d ago
Windows works in SteamDeck, so I think it seems highly likely that Valve will provide the drivers for this device as well.
Sammi
5d ago
*yet
whywhywhywhy
5d ago
2 replies
>All they have to do is market the fact you don't have to pay for online.

All Sony and MS have to do it market that it can't play GTA6 at launch.

redwall_hp
5d ago
1 reply
Or Fortnite, Genshin Impact, Roblox, Marvel Rivals or any other popular live service game. Which are the games most people care about now.
a2128
5d ago
Roblox is playable thanks to the efforts of the VinegarHQ team who created the Sober wrapper
jijijijij
5d ago
All Valve has to do is bundle it with Half-Life 3.
uoaei
6d ago
With the specs these devices have I don't think it's far-fetched to assume that pricing will be competitive. Maybe they will charge a bit extra if they tout all the extra stuff you can install on the Machine vs Xbox as a selling point, which they are kind of doing, to justify a slightly higher price point.
nemomarx
6d ago
Is that the price point of those anymore? I see 550 ish for the base ps5 with a disc drive and closer to 750 for the pro.

I don't expect them to match either in volume but it seems like microsoft is already backing out of the dedicated console hardware space tho

culi
5d ago
Hard disagree with that claim. The truth is anyone with a PC and a steam machine basically already has a Steam Machine. Steam doesn't need to sell at a loss like most consoles. Their only real goal is to prove that there's nothing a console can do that a PC can't do.
skissane
6d ago
8 replies
So, Steam is planning to sell these at a loss, but isn’t planning to lock out third party OS?

What’s to stop people buying them to use for completely unrelated use cases?

I guess it depends on how big the loss is… if it is small, it might not be really worth it for most people; but any larger, I wonder how sustainable this will be.

killingtime74
6d ago
2 replies
Did they say they are selling at a loss?
Normal_gaussian
6d ago
Valve haven't said that, but the article randomly claims it.
TheRoque
6d ago
I don't think they have, but it's the business model of most consoles, to be able to be very affordable. So since the headline is implying it'll do better than consoles, it's implying it'll be sold at a loss too. But honestly, I find that article BS.
ethmarks
6d ago
1 reply
What non-gaming use cases do you imagine people might use these for?

For normal computer use (reading email, watching videos, doing spreadsheets), there are much cheaper and better options available. If somebody wanted a Steam Machine specifically, it'd be for the GPU.

If you needed a lot of GPU compute (for AI or blockchain or whatever), it'd be cheaper to buy or rent a dedicated server with Nvidia H100s rather than buying dozens of Steam Machines.

So the only potential use cases are those that have a significant but not too significant GPU requirement. The only ones I can think of are gaming (which is the intended use case), video editing, and 3D rendering.

Video editing is less of a concern because neither Adobe Premier nor Final Cut Pro will run on Linux (to my knowledge), so you might as well buy a Mac that runs both of those very efficiently and has decent hardware.

So we're left with 3D rendering. If people want to use Steam Machines to render things in Blender, I say "let them", and I assume that Valve does too.

bsder
6d ago
3 replies
> What non-gaming use cases do you imagine people might use these for?

Media box under your TV? Right now I don't have a lot of options that also don't inundate me with ads.

Sure, I can build one, but if Valve can put this out at a price that makes me go "Nah. Not worth building it myself." that's a win.

ethmarks
6d ago
1 reply
Couldn't you use a Raspberry Pi or a mini PC for this?
bsder
6d ago
1 reply
Sure? But RPi's are anemic and not cheap while refurb mini PC's are $400.

So, there's quite a bit of pricing room.

lotyrin
6d ago
I think the mini PCs they're talking about are more likely to be N100 systems or similar that are sub 100 dollars new. Significantly less anemic, and their hardware media decode (which is well supported by software) is more than sufficient for realtime 4k playback.
James_K
5d ago
You can run media from a potato. This will be at least 5x the cost of a cheap mini-PC. And you can't forget power draw. The Steam Machine has a 30W CPU, and I'd guess about 60W RAM which would add up to something like $120+ annually where a mini PC would cost closer to $7. 5 years later and the Steam Machine has eaten it's cost in power. Assuming it costs $500 like most consoles, you are looking at a total 5-year cost of $1100 where a mini-PC would be $100–200.
theshrike79
5d ago
You can get 100-200€ Chinese mini (or micro?) PCs with an Intel N97/N100 CPU that can do this perfectly.

No need to buy an almost 1000€ massively overpowered custom gaming machine for that.

xgulfie
6d ago
1 reply
What's stopping someone from using a steam deck for running emulators, SuperTuxKart, and pirated games? This isn't their first rodeo
SchemaLoad
6d ago
I doubt the steam deck is sold at a loss.
micromacrofoot
6d ago
no modern console is sold at a loss this is silly speculation
protimewaster
6d ago
I think the explanation is that people love Valve beyond reason, so a vast majority will just use Steam on it.

Plus, Steam is bordering on a monopoly for PC gaming anyway, so, even if they install another OS, a user is probably going to end up on Steam.

TheRoque
6d ago
If that's what happens, then I'm buying one of these right away for sure. I mean, I use steam a lot, but I certainly won't be locked in their "SteamOS". Maybe they are betting that most users will be too lazy to change the defaults and stick to SteamOS (which might very well be the case, and they have a hint of this thanks to the data they have on the Steam Deck)
opan
6d ago
You can install Windows (or Bazzite, or whatever else) on a Steam Deck as well.
raincole
6d ago
> Steam is planning to sell these at a loss

Just a random blog's guess.

> What’s to stop people buying them to use for completely unrelated use cases?

Nothing. But it doesn't mean that Valve doesn't benefit from it. Valve wants the whole gaming scheme to shift toward SteamOS. Like Google wants the whole web browsing to shift to Chrome, even you can use Chrome for stuff unrelated to Google.

neilv
6d ago
1 reply
What is the multiplayer cheating situation like on Steam games?

(Technology, demographics, popularity?)

TheRoque
6d ago
"steam games", doesn't really mean anything. Most games are on steam nowadays. It mostly depends on the OS on which the games run. Games with kernel anti cheat: low cheaters population, runs on Windows but not Linux. Games without kernel anti cheat: low to high (think counter strike official servers) cheaters population.
Normal_gaussian
6d ago
1 reply
Valve certainly won't win it, but they're bringing the heat where it wasn't before.

SteamOS is the important part here - if it is proven to be a good console experience (which the deck has basically proven already) then licensing of the OS to other manufacturers will put a lot of pressure on integrated h/w s/w manufacturers.

Unlike the handheld format, the tvbox console is fairly easy to manufacture and is tolerant of a lot of spec and price variety. Any slip up by Sony and Microsoft in specs and price will result in steam machine variants carving away market share, which could force more frequent console releases.

The steam machine will almost certainly come in at a higher price point than the PS5, but with no 'online' subscription charge and reasonably priced storage upgrades we may see these revenue streams disappear from the next console generation in order to compete.

SteamOS isn't perfect, and the variety inherent in the platform that is a strength is also a weakness. The core markets for Nintendo and for Sony aren't going anywhere.

robomc
6d ago
2 replies
Yeah I mean... can I play Fortnite, BF6 or the upcoming GTA on steamOS?
rvz
6d ago
5 replies
If any game has DRM or anti-cheat technology which BF6 does and even most AAA games, then it cannot play it at all without it.

That is going to be a no go for any SteamOS device when an highly anticipated game gets released on day 1.

aaomidi
6d ago
1 reply
Market pressure can change game studios behavior.
LexiMax
6d ago
1 reply
Battlefield 6 might never run on the average Linux desktop, but I could see a future where it would run on Steam hardware in an end-to-end Secure Boot environment.

Gamers don't like playing with cheaters.

aaomidi
5d ago
2 replies
We’re going to have to figure out a better way of dealing with cheaters.

You could be playing against an AI model specifically trained on that game. No anti cheat is going to detect that.

cestith
5d ago
1 reply
A few anti-cheat systems rather than inspecting the local machine look for things like impossibly fast target acquisition in FPS games, or the server noticing when a shot is taken on an opponent who’s supposed to be totally obscured. Those aren’t perfect, but they don’t require kernel-level anticheat.
rangestransform
5d ago
Cheating detection server side is expensive and probabilistic at best, kernel level anti cheat is a purely financial decision
LexiMax
5d ago
3 replies
I find it much more likely that Valve enables Secure Boot on their Steam hardware.

I imagine that if this happens, it will be followed by popular Linux distros finally becoming serious about their Secure Boot implementations, instead of simply shimming it or seen as a rarely-used feature reserved for enterprise distros like RHEL.

Some of us actually think that having some sort of validation that our OS hasn't been tampered with is a feature and not a bug. It's only a problem when companies parlay that validation into anti-consumer DRM - but that's a political problem, not a technological one.

array_key_first
5d ago
It's both a technological and political problem.

All the platforms that went all-in on secure boot like things and attestation are anti-consumer hellholes that slurp all your data. The evidence just does not look good. Maybe Linux is different, but it's swimming against the tide here. It would be the first of it's kind.

Hikikomori
5d ago
Or rebooting to a secure mode where you can only run the game and maybe discord.
aaomidi
4d ago
But again this doesn’t solve the problem where an AI model can just play the game.
ethmarks
6d ago
1 reply
I think that the idea is that if you get enough users on Linux, it seems foolish from the game studio's perspective not to add Linux support to their anticheat.
walletdrainer
6d ago
2 replies
Not necessarily, the anticheat will end up much easier to defeat on Linux.
swiftcoder
5d ago
2 replies
This depends heavily on how customised the linux is. Back in the day Amazon had to fork Android to add kernel-level support for DRM, otherwise the studios weren't going to permit streaming video on Fire tablets. One could imagine Valve adding an optional kernel DRM module to solve the same problem.
ethmarks
5d ago
2 replies
But you can still stream video on normal Android devices, no? My Motorola phone supports Disney+. Why did studios object to streaming on Fire tablets unless it had kernel DRM but they're fine with streaming on easily-rootable phones?
swiftcoder
5d ago
Not at that time, no - this was several years before Google decided to ship Widevine in Android
walletdrainer
5d ago
FWIW rooting the phone is not enough to get you the widevine keys.

Also some services will just downgrade you to a lower quality stream if your device doesn’t have the appropriate keys.

walletdrainer
5d ago
You still lose because the dev team has to split their attention.

And anyway I (and many other people!) have valid keys for basically all widevine streams extracted from supposedly secure android devices. That DRM approach ended up failing miserably and torrent sites are full of WEB-DLs.

ethmarks
5d ago
1 reply
It's possible that 'adding Linux support' would take the form of just making the anticheat optional.

Maybe playing with the anticheat enabled makes you immune to being reported for cheating (because they can verify down to the kernel level that you aren't), but you can still play without it (but without the immunity from being reported).

Obviously they wouldn't do this in today's market because there's no incentive to do so, but if a significant portion of gamers moved to Linux, offering a Linux solution might become a reasonable choice for game studios.

pbronez
5d ago
1 reply
Optional anti-cheat could be really interesting. Make it a matchmaking option; let the players decide who they want to play with. This effectively makes "PC without Anti-cheat" a new platform in cross-platform match making.

I can imagine a whole scene popping up where everyone cheats to the max, creating whole new game modes.

ethmarks
5d ago
> I can imagine a whole scene popping up where everyone cheats to the max, creating whole new game modes.

That would be very interesting. I also bet that people would start developing bots that play the game better than a human could and eventually it would essentially turn into digital BattleBots.

johnny22
5d ago
anti-cheat is one thing, but i'm not aware of any DRM that doesn't work on linux? I know denuvo is one of the most popular ones and it definitely does
fulafel
6d ago
Not the case - lots of games including AAA ones have these things on the Steam Deck.
hlfshell
6d ago
ARC Raiders runs fine with anticheat on Linux. As does the Finals.
Normal_gaussian
6d ago
3 replies
Probably not. Kernel level anti cheat is the problem. I know BF6 isn't proton safe. Fortnite is the same.

GTA VI will probably run single player on proton fine, GTA V does. Multiplayer will probably not.

The multiplayer with kernel level anti cheat will keep Sony safe through at least another generation; Microsoft is less safe as they're so vulnerable this generation anyway.

eptcyka
6d ago
1 reply
GTA V multiplayer was working fine on Proton not too long ago. Haven't played in years though.
pbmonster
5d ago
There where changes a few months ago. Multiplayer is completely non-viable since then.
rkangel
5d ago
2 replies
There's a circular opportunity though - if the SteamOS market share gets anywhere, then it might become worth it for these developers to support anti-cheat on the that platform. Some systems (notably BattleEye) actually have Linux support, they just need to enable it, but there's no incentive for them to do so.
Kbelicius
5d ago
2 replies
> Some systems (notably BattleEye) actually have Linux support, they just need to enable it, but there's no incentive for them to do so.

This isn't really true. As GP said, there isn't a kernel level anti cheat for linux. You can switch a flick on BattleEye to run on linux but it wont be a kernel level as it is on windows. So there is an incentive for them to not turn it on because it simply is the worse version than the windows one. As far as I know even on windows you get cheats even if it is kernel level. Meaning, allowing linux you'd probably be flooded with cheaters if you already get them on windows.

mschuster91
5d ago
1 reply
> Meaning, allowing linux you'd probably be flooded with cheaters if you already get them on windows.

There's an easy way to not get cheaters, or at least to slow down their impact: stop making your games "free to play". When cheaters have to buy 60€ games everytime they get b&, eventually they'll run out of money.

Hikikomori
5d ago
1 reply
That really doesn't stop cheaters. Tarkov EoD edition is $150 or so, cheaters still cheat on those. They cheat in cs2 with skins worth thousands.
array_key_first
5d ago
1 reply
That's because there's no moderation and they don't get banned. If they got banned, they wouldn't cheat.
Hikikomori
5d ago
1 reply
They do get banned, what are you even talking about?
Arrath
4d ago
If anything the Tarkov ban treadmill is a way to drive sales. Even if some of them get disputed as fraudulent due to stolen card numbers, BSG may still come out ahead.
unaindz
5d ago
Battleeye games get flooded with cheaters no matter what. On most anti cheats is the same anyways. Just see tarkov for a battleeye game with rampant cheaters
pacifika
4d ago
Why not, isn’t it a win/win to increase the player base? What are the downsides?
moomin
5d ago
After the CrowdStrike debacle, it’s amazing Microsoft isn’t coming for kernel-level gaming patches.
itsdrewmiller
6d ago
Love the enthusiasm but expensive versions of commodity products with last gen specs are not going to win that generation or the next one.
asadotzler
6d ago
It won't outsell Quest 2, much less the real consoles, not in the next half decade anyway.

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