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  1. Home
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  3. /The Death of Arduino?
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  2. /Story
  3. /The Death of Arduino?
Nov 19, 2025 at 2:44 PM EST

The Death of Arduino?

ChuckMcM
425 points
228 comments

Mood

heated

Sentiment

negative

Category

tech

Key topics

Arduino

Open Source

Hardware

Debate intensity80/100
https://archive.ph/05KK2

The Arduino company has been acquired by Qualcomm, leading to concerns about the future of the open-source platform and its restrictive new terms of service, sparking debate among the community about the implications and potential alternatives.

Snapshot generated from the HN discussion

Discussion Activity

Very active discussion

First comment

27m

Peak period

160

Day 1

Avg / period

160

Comment distribution160 data points
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Based on 160 loaded comments

Key moments

  1. 01Story posted

    Nov 19, 2025 at 2:44 PM EST

    4d ago

    Step 01
  2. 02First comment

    Nov 19, 2025 at 3:11 PM EST

    27m after posting

    Step 02
  3. 03Peak activity

    160 comments in Day 1

    Hottest window of the conversation

    Step 03
  4. 04Latest activity

    Nov 20, 2025 at 2:39 PM EST

    3d ago

    Step 04

Generating AI Summary...

Analyzing up to 500 comments to identify key contributors and discussion patterns

Discussion (228 comments)
Showing 160 comments of 228
chermi
4d ago
2 replies
Damn. I mean it's was expected I guess. Anyway, back to my Chinese esp32 since they've been better for a while anyway.
ge96
4d ago
3 replies
Teensy, maybe I finally use that stm bluepill I bought, I also have an unopened beagle bone black damn and orange crab
MayeulC
4d ago
2 replies
Raspbery Pi Picos are extremely capable for their price as well! It isn't like we are out of options these days.
ge96
4d ago
I actually have a KB2040 too from Adafruit, they snuck it in there (free) I think from when I ordered 20 of these metal gear servos
chasd00
4d ago
Sounds crazy, but I just get full pi zero 2s for any little hobby projects. It’s just simpler to have everything even if I’m only blinking leds.
collingreen
4d ago
1 reply
I think I know all those words but as an outsider I have no idea what you're saying :D
ge96
4d ago
Just a bunch of microcontroller providers, the last one is an FPGA, I still haven't learned FPGAs yet or how to design my own PCB but on the list

edit: beagle bone black is an SBC apparently

snarfy
4d ago
2 replies
We all really should be supporting the Teensy guy.
threechairs
4d ago
Paul is an amazing person. Brilliant, broad skillset, and a pleasure to talk to. If he was a little less introverted he’d be the new Wozniak.
ge96
4d ago
They are expensive but damn the IO is insane, I made a robot with a Teensy 4.0 and the clock speed damn base is 600Mhz
IshKebab
4d ago
And they officially support Rust!
jcgrillo
4d ago
1 reply
Echoing the comments there... this seems like a colossally dumb move on their part. Is there any way this doesn't just end with a hard fork and some new player taking over where Arduino left off?
estimator7292
4d ago
1 reply
The other option is that Arduino simply fades away. Their hardware doesn't have anything to offer that you can't get on aliexpress or spin yourself for a tenth the cost.

The framework is the only arguably valuable thing they offer, but even that's not enough to prop a business up on.

Most likely everything will continue exactly as-is: Arduino hardware will become increasingly dated and undesirable, and open source Arduino-compatible libraries will continue flourishing until nobody remembers that Arduino was a hardware platform before it was software framework.

I think we've long since passed the point where Wiring will ever go away, but I doubt we'll still be calling it Arduino for too much longer. Arduino is probably dead, and espressif is moving in.

jcgrillo
4d ago
Yeah I personally never really bought into Arduino. I got their Uno back whenever it came out but never really got into their whole IDE experience. Latest projects are on esp32 using embassy which so far has been going great. Interested to check out rp2040 or rp2350 at some point maybe.. There are tons of interesting, easy options out there now
gjsman-1000
4d ago
13 replies
I used to be interested in Arduino, but the hobbyist movement is nothing like it was in the early 2010s. In part, I think, we had amazing technologies (3D Printing! Arduino! CNC! Raspberry Pi!)… but not really that many amazing ideas on what to actually do with it.

What can I build with an Arduino that isn’t better, cheaper, faster, and more complete as a full product on Amazon? Almost nothing. When I’m staring at a screen 8 hours a day as a computer programmer already, my body screams for less screen time, not more. I’d rather learn Spanish or go skiing than start a FOSS project; and I don’t think I’m alone.

I understand there’s an artistic expression aspect to it… but I think at this point I’d rather learn photography or painting, actual art, for expression. Something normal people understand and appreciate. It’s too much of the same for me.

ceejayoz
4d ago
3 replies
> What can I build with an Arduino that isn’t better, cheaper, faster, and more complete as a full product on Amazon? Almost nothing.

I mean, my little hobby project is making the LED strips taped to my skis respond to an accelerometer, so they pulse brighter when I make a good turn. Plus Bluetooth control of the patterns. Not gonna find that on Amazon.

kvam
4d ago
1 reply
Please blog and post about this. I need a how to.
ceejayoz
3d ago
If I complete the project! Haha.
sleepybrett
4d ago
2 replies
There are plenty of not-arduino microcontrollers that can do this.

To your reply-writer, how do you think those products came to be, many of them are productization of hobbiest projects.

The arduino project jumpstarted a whole ecosystem, but I don't that ecosystem needs arduino anymore.

ceejayoz
4d ago
> There are plenty of not-arduino microcontrollers that can do this.

Sure. I'm responding to this bit:

> better, cheaper, faster, and more complete as a full product on Amazon

Mine's on a nRF52840 board. My point is less about Arduino and more about tinkering.

IncreasePosts
4d ago
It sounded like OP was saying they couldn't think of any interesting things to tinker with since everything they could think of is already a product on amazon. So in this case it isn't about alternatives to Arduino, it's about alternatives to reactive LED lights for your skis.
blauditore
4d ago
Love it, and I agree. I've built two "star skies" for kids, using cheap RGB LED lights, programming them to slowly change color, only use warm colors, and turn off more and more stars over time. Nothing super fancy, but very custom to my needs.
strix_varius
4d ago
1 reply
This sounds more like your personal journey, and less like some broad trend.

A quick check of just one of your examples shows the term "3d printer" is googled for literally twice as frequently today as it was in 2016, for instance.

chankstein38
4d ago
And for another n=1 input, from my perspective, 3d printing is MUCH BIGGER now than it was back then. Weird take from the parent comment!
michaeljx
4d ago
1 reply
I've been programming esp32 connected with soil moisture sensors and solenoid valves to water each individual pot of plants according to its own readings, instead of having a centrally controlled irrigation system. Overkill, I know, but with a cost of 8-10usd per set up it is not expensive
gus_massa
4d ago
Photos? If you have a blog post, it may be a good post for HN. (Bonus points if the plants survived :) .)
compiler-guy
4d ago
Almost every song I play on any instrument is available played better, more professionally, and more precisely and more artistically, on any music source possibly available. And yet I still play every day for my own pleasure.

It's the act of playing, where the music itself is an important part, but just a part, that I enjoy.

ygjb
4d ago
As a hobbyist, it's not about being able to buy it faster, cheaper, or better. It's about learning how to tinker, making something work, and building something that is effectively the artistic expression of my technical skills.

YMMV, but if you aren't loving the hobby element anymore and the itch can be scratched by reaching for a product, that's a shift in what you are enjoying, not an indictment of hobbies :)

alnwlsn
4d ago
In my eyes it's quite the opposite: there is almost nothing that exists as a complete product on Amazon. Faster and cheaper? Yes. Better and more complete? Not a chance. But you have to want it bad enough, and have enough skill to do it.

Arduino is (was?) one of those skills. Practice them enough, and you'll soon find the things you want aren't available for sale, at any price.

zumzum
4d ago
> When I’m staring at a screen 8 hours a day as a computer programmer already, my body screams for less screen time, not more ... and I don’t think I’m alone.

Isn't there a term for that: wage slavery[1]?

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery

analog31
4d ago
What can you create as a programmer that isn't already a product? For each of us the answer is only limited by our interests and imagination. I use the Arduino development environment to create peripherals for specialized measurment gear, where I absolutly must control the design at the firmware level to make it work.
GuB-42
4d ago
You are just becoming old.

Less time, more money, changing hobbies, etc...

It is almost always better from a practical perspective to buy the complete product over DIY, or even better, not buy at all. Those who claim otherwise are justifying their hobby. Best case scenario, you break even after not counting your time, which is actually great, because most people pay for their hobbies.

The hobbyist movement didn't change, you did, life is like that and that's not a bad thing. The technologies change but the general idea stay the same. For Arduino (the brand), I think it is dying, but that just because you can buy generic ESP32 boards on AliExpress for cheaper and with more variety.

ale42
4d ago
> What can I build with an Arduino that isn’t better, cheaper, faster, and more complete as a full product on Amazon?

For an end user maybe not much, but for tinkerers, a lot. Almost everything where you need/want customization, unique features, and so on. This said, you don't strictly need an Arduino for that, I actually (almost) never use them because their software library is so high level that it eats so much resources on the underlying microcontrollers and make things more complex when you want to do more advanced stuff (like handling interrupts). When I use them, is for some quick&dirty thing (e.g. I need to turn on a stripe of "smart" LEDs quickly), but never include them in finished things.

the__alchemist
4d ago
My 2c: I got into electronics, firmware, and PCB design during the Pandemic, and haven't used Arduino beyond cursory support for integrations. At the time, it used obsolete chips, and didn't have a practical advantage over STM32, Nordic, Espressif chips (Or dev boards) beyond name recognition. I speculate that there was a time before this when it had innovative UX for new users segment, but this hasn't been true for (at least, from my experience) 6 years.
dekhn
4d ago
Arduino and related technologies have revolutionzed scientific instrument making. Things that were either "too hard" or "too expensive" are now straightforward for hobbyist and non-technical scientists.

For example, I build automated microscopes as a hobby and I use arduino products (well, used- now I use ESP32 with micropython, but that still depends on the Arduino API) and it's been tremendous for building high speed interfaces (I need to blink an LED at the same rate/in sync with a camera shutter opening/closing) . Even when I do photography, I'm still building arduino and other related things to help automate the tedious bits. And when that gets boring, I take out my guitar and use arduino or similar products to do audio processing in realtime.

For many of the things I want to do, there is no product on Amazon, or it's obscenely expensive (XY stages typically cost $10K and up).

SAI_Peregrinus
4d ago
Also what can I build with an Arduino that isn't cheaper, faster, and more complete with an STM32 Nucleo or other similar dev board? These days you can get a nice 32-bit ARM MCU for the same price (or cheaper) as an Arduino board. No need to deal with an 8-bit ATMEGA and its quirks.
1970-01-01
4d ago
1 reply
>Qualcomm-owned Arduino

That's all you need to know. The old company no longer exists.

robert_foss
4d ago
1 reply
Qcom is a lawnmower, if you stick your hand in, it'll chop it off.
seemaze
4d ago
"You don't think 'oh, the lawnmower hates me' - lawnmower doesn't give a shit about you, lawnmower can't hate you. Don't anthropomorphize the lawnmower." - Bryan Cantrill

[0] https://youtu.be/-zRN7XLCRhc?t=33m1s

analog31
4d ago
5 replies
How's this affect the Arduino IDE and libraries? At this point those seem more important than Arduino-branded hardware.
seanw444
4d ago
1 reply
Why not just use whatever IDE you prefer and upload via the CLI?
giantg2
4d ago
2 replies
Certainly an option. The IDE is nice for beginners, which seemed like a major point to Arduino.
andoando
4d ago
1 reply
Get VSCode and install PlatformIO extension. Its way better
giantg2
4d ago
1 reply
I'll give it a try. Even if it is better, that's might not help noobs since there are tons of tutorials using the Arduino one. That could change over time though.
andoando
4d ago
Getting started is really easy.

https://docs.platformio.org/en/latest/integration/ide/vscode...

And esp32 can use the same Arduino library.

seanw444
3d ago
That's fair.
jdc0589
4d ago
1 reply
arduino ide is pretty terrible anyway. Swap to your normal ide of choice, and start using PlatformIO. way better experience, and you can actually have all your important config in normal text files on git/etc.. instead of having to tweak UI settings in Arduino studio.
analog31
4d ago
1 reply
Ah, good point, and likewise for adjacent comment. I was aware of those options, but have been procrastinating on making the switch. What's important to me is the library support, and ability to spin up a boilerplate project that runs on most chips, while providing access to vendor specific libraries when I actually need them.
HeyLaughingBoy
4d ago
1 reply
VS Code/PlatformIO actually makes that easier than the Arduino IDE. And, as a bonus, the specific version of a library that you use is tied to a single project and won't affect any others. Which is really important when you use a library that is dependent on a particular version of another library.
jdc0589
3d ago
1 reply
this is what made me rage quit on Arduino IDE about 1 hour after starting any embedded dev (esp32) for the first time. I've got no clue what im doing with embedded stuff, but I am a SWE, and I expect to be able to test sweeping changes and have them be isolated in branches/git-stash/etc...

Having to remembering everything I played with tweaking in a UI is a hilarious no-go.

HeyLaughingBoy
3d ago
Arduino IDE shines when you're building something small and simple, where the code is at most two pages long. That satisfies a majority of the original use cases for arduino. e.g., my first use of it at work was to toggle a relay on and off once per minute to catch a problem with a new design that only happened at power-on. That was probably under 10 LoC.

However, in the intervening 15-20 years, people have been using arduino for increasingly complex applications and the basic IDE really sucks for that.

lysace
4d ago
1 reply
Someone needs to step up to fork and maintain it.

I imagine that Adafruit, Sparkfun and some other companies are highly motivated.

zoobab
3d ago
I proposed to fork the day it was acquired by Qualcomm.

Now this announcement where users get deprived of their copyright for anything they write by Qualcomm makes this fork more pressing.

dekhn
4d ago
The only thing of value left in Arduino is the API (which has been ported to non-Arduinos) and the drivers (of which there are hundreds; Adafruit is one of the main developers).
JohnFen
4d ago
You don't actually need the Arduino IDE. I haven't used it in years. You can use any IDE (or just makefiles) and gcc.
cattown
4d ago
2 replies
Doesn’t this only really affect actual Arduino brand products. There’s tons of just-as-good cheap knockoffs available. See Elegoo kits easily found on Amazon for example. The IDE is open source with the AGPL license.

Can’t we just cut Qualcomm out of the supply chain and keep going as normal without too much disruption? Doesn’t even feel like a hard fork is needed. Just don’t buy Qualcomm’s crap.

wmf
4d ago
1 reply
The goal is probably to prevent any knockoffs of the next generation products.
duskwuff
4d ago
Not that anyone's even bothered knocking off their current generation products. The majority of Arduino clones are still using AVR or occasionally SAMD processors - Arduino's newer boards were never really accepted by the community. Some makers have even gone another direction entirely - ESP32-based development boards are popular, and there's a compatibility layer for using the Arduino IDE with those.
F7F7F7
4d ago
1 reply
Sounds great in theory. But this would put a serious dent in the Arduino opensource community and fragment support.

Arduino is the unifying umbrella that keeps everything together. With that gone the platform will surely lose.

andoando
4d ago
4 replies
Esp32 is just as big if not bigger.
mort96
4d ago
1 reply
Espressif has a pretty good Arduino compatibility layer for the ESP32 series. So you can follow Arduino tutorials and almost everything will "just work". This what I use for quick and dirty projects.

For more "serious" things, you have the ESP-IDF, which is a pretty good C-style interface to all sorts of hardware features. Less newbie friendly than the Arduino interface, but gives you more control. And it can be used in combination with the Arduino interface.

And then, as the cherry on top, you have their official Rust HAL for the ESP chips, implementing the standard Rust embedded-hal interfaces so it should "just work" with the growing Rust embedded ecosystem.

It's honestly impressive. The only thing that has kept Arduino competitive is their brand, good reputation, and focus on the education and tinkerer space. I frankly don't understand what value Qualcomm sees in Arduino if they're just gonna throw away that reputation and education friendliness.

MegaDeKay
4d ago
ESP32 is fantastic. I just ordered four more today for various projects. Barely cracked $20 CAD and free shipping from Ali.
chpatrick
4d ago
1 reply
And a dev board only costs a couple of dollars on AliExpress.
andoando
4d ago
dev board with wifi and bluetooth no less
aaronblohowiak
4d ago
4 replies
I wish there was a esp32 board with optically isolated 24v level shifters and screw terminals…
inamberclad
4d ago
1 reply
Thanks to the open source nature of the Arduino ecosystem, you can make it so!
aaronblohowiak
4d ago
Ars longa, vita brevis
05
4d ago
There are optoisolated mosfet modules available on aliexpress, or what exactly do you mean by “level shifters”? What’s your application?
HeyLaughingBoy
4d ago
There probably is if you look hard enough. Closest thing I can think of is the MKS-DLC32 motor control boards that are generally used in 3D printers and laser engravers. You can buy just the board and reprogram it. They just run grbl with serial and web interfaces anyway and have an arduino bootloader.
general1465
4d ago
You can search through AliExpress, but I am afraid that your request is so specific that you will need to design something yourself.
bityard
4d ago
2 replies
ESPs are great, but their hobbyist ecosystem ultimately relies on the goodwill of a Chinese company that could just as easily decide they want to go the way of Qualcomm, or worse.
mort96
4d ago
Any company can "go the way of Qualcomm", as you call it. To my knowledge, there's no indication that there's any more danger of them going that way relative to, say, TI or ST?

Don't get me wrong, the fall of Arduino is a real loss. Espressif is a company in the business of making money, while Arduino's mission was to build a robust tinkerer ecosystem. Absent an acquisition, it's probably fair to say that Arduino would be less likely than Espressif, ST or TI to do bullshit like this.

realo
4d ago
They could, but they have not, and I don't perceive that risk to be particularly enhanced just because they are chinese.

This is just FUD you are spreading.

ahepp
4d ago
6 replies
> users are now explicitly forbidden from reverse-engineering or even attempting to understand how the platform works unless Arduino gives permission.

I briefly looked at their IDE and CLI repos and GitHub claims they're AGPL and GPL 3 respectively. I didn't see a CLA when I looked at their contribution guide.

Am I missing something here? What basis do they have to restrict users' rights to reverse engineer the software?

adfm
4d ago
4 replies
Arduino is as influential as it is controversial and has been from the beginning.

https://arduinohistory.github.io

https://hackaday.com/2016/03/04/wiring-was-arduino-before-ar...

scuff3d
4d ago
Jesus, they just ripped it off whole sale and claimed it was their own.
rramadass
3d ago
You should submit Hernando Barragan's story as a top-level post on HN. Many people do not know of this and he certainly deserves all the recognition he can get.

I have a special kind of hatred for people who steal other folks work (even if it is freely given) without any acknowledgement.

It would be just desserts if Barragan teamed up with some high profile lawyers and went after Qualcomm/Arduino like the Winklewoss twins went after Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook.

nobodyandproud
4d ago
Thanks. I have no qualms about seeing Arduino getting “ripped off” then.
ahurmazda
4d ago
Really appreciate the link. I simply had no idea about this history. Just the sheer intellectual dishonesty is mind-boggling.
silvanocerza
4d ago
1 reply
Arduino repos require a CLA since years, it was introduced 5 or 6 years ago if I remember correctly.
1718627440
4d ago
1 reply
Isn't this quite useless, when they don't have the copyright on the initial version, since they didn't require a CLA back then?
richardwhiuk
4d ago
1 reply
CLA allows them to relicense your contributions under their own license - e.g. proprietary

A DCO would be the more friendly option.

ahepp
4d ago
1 reply
I think the question is, what use is adding a CLA if the core functionality was under (A)GPL? Unless you go back and get all the OG contributors to sign over their rights, how can you relicense?
1718627440
3d ago
Yeah, exactly that's my point. The role of Arduino is like that of a Distro, they own the packet repository and the packet manager, and maintain a build-system and an IDE. They aren't the initial copyright holder to basically any library. The only thing they really own is the Arduino API, but this is an API not an implementation. The compiler is GCC, the board specific methods come from the hardware vendor, the C lib is newlib or comes also from the hardware vendor. The flasher software comes from a different company.

The libraries are written by random people, what Arduino does is adopt them after ~4-6 years of existing, slapping a "© Arduino LLC" on top and maybe fixing the packet manifest. The role of Arduino is a vendor and maintainer, they don't really are upstream for much things.

I don't really understand how what they try to achieve with these new "terms and conditions" is legally possible. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45978802) They could release new software with different licenses, but they would need to rewrite most of the ecosystem to do that. Neither MIT, nor LGPL, nor GPL nor AGPL contain any reference to "terms and conditions" of one of the copyright holders, which should be followed on top of the license.

SimianSci
4d ago
4 replies
Adafruit is wrong here

A missing piece of the puzzle that i feel is ommitted in Adafruits posting, is that the changes only affect the Arduino Cloud Services, which provide various github-like services for the arduino ecosystem. Looking over the changes with this in mind, it seems a lawyer just applied the same standard SaaS legal language to what is effectively a SaaS offering, pretty normal in most cases.

None of these changes will affect the Arduino open-source hardware project.

[EDIT] - confirmed: https://www.arduino.cc/en/privacy-policy/ all the legal language applies to the website, online services, forums, etc.

umanwizard
4d ago
1 reply
If true that's an absolutely gigantic omission, bordering on outright lying.
jama211
4d ago
Yeah renders this whole article kinda dismissible imo
yapyap
4d ago
Yeah I already found it odd that it was about what “users uploaded” seeing that Arduino is not necessarily a platform to upload things to, it can be, but not necessarily.

Also Adafruit being a store, isnt there a matter of conflict of interest with posts like this?

londons_explore
4d ago
And I can't imagine Qualcomms lawyers put much thought into this specific clause.

As soon as it becomes a PR nightmare, they might just take that clause out.

teraflop
4d ago
More precisely, from the TOS:

> The Site is part of the platform developed and managed by Arduino, which allows users to take part in the discussions on the Arduino forum, the Arduino blog, the Arduino User Group, the Arduino Discord channel, and the Arduino Project Hub, and to access the Arduino main website, subsites, Arduino Cloud, Arduino Courses, Arduino Certifications, Arduino Docs, the Arduino EDU kit sites to release works within the Contributor License Agreement program, and to further develop the Arduino open source ecosystem (collectively, the “Platform”).

> 8.2 User shall not: translate, decompile or reverse-engineer the Platform, or engage in any other activity designed to identify the algorithms and logic of the Platform’s operation, unless expressly allowed by Arduino or by applicable license agreements

So yeah, it seems like the definition of "Platform" is limited only to their hosted services.

bigiain
4d ago
1 reply
I'm now realising I do not really know where the Arduino IDE gets all the libraries and board definitions from. I assume that's now Qualcomm owned web services with Qualcomm defined TOS?

I also wonder if anyone's backed/scraped the forums?

ahepp
4d ago
iirc the Arduino term is "cores", which implement the HAL for a different family of boards. Been a while since I looked deeper at it

https://docs.arduino.cc/learn/starting-guide/cores/

reactordev
4d ago
This is Legal Team not doing their due diligence. Just throwing a blanket terms of service update across all “properties”.
jsheard
4d ago
The new Arduino UNO Q features a beefy Qualcomm SOC running Linux, alongside an STM32 microcontroller which is programmable from the Arduino IDE. The MCU side is wide open, but the SOC side is full of proprietary firmware blobs, so I assume the lawyers are concerned about those being reverse engineered.
flockonus
4d ago
2 replies
Can we please avoid the clickbait meta of "Death of" / "Is __ Dead?" for things that are obviously not?

The news describe an important shift, but just describe that it is, no need for "youtubefication" of titles here.

skylurk
4d ago
1 reply
Arduino's hackability was its unique selling point. When it is no longer hackable, what is left (of the company)?
ceejayoz
4d ago
1 reply
Plenty out there to fill the void.

Stuff like https://www.adafruit.com/product/4062

skylurk
4d ago
Fair enough, not a unique selling point. But an important one. Without it, who are the customers?
nocman
4d ago
I don't think in this case that most people who know what Arduino is would be at all mislead by the title. Being "dead" doesn't have to mean that a company ceases to exist. There are plenty of what I would call "dead" companies that still make money every year. "Dead" can be used figuratively. In this case, meaning that though the company continues to exist, the reason for which many people bought their products is now gone.
fidotron
4d ago
3 replies
This is not good. Qualcomm are [expletives] anyway, but we need more activity in the connected microcontroller space in the west.

Never have been a fan of the programming style encouraged by the Arduino SDK/API, so hopefully this demise will allow someone to enter the space with something that is actually competitive with the Espressif devices. Have a decent API and connectivity, at the same time, unfathomable stuff. The Picos are closest, but the connectivity situation is a mess.

aDyslecticCrow
4d ago
2 replies
Espressif was just handed the whole market on a platter. Unless raspberry can significantly expand their market but I doubt it. Year of the RISK V?
fidotron
4d ago
2 replies
It's one of those things you need a benevolent billionaire to bootstrap which will probably never make money.

The CPU cores aren't the problem (just use Hazard3) - it's all the rest, particularly the WiFi.

aDyslecticCrow
4d ago
1 reply
There are other vendors of Wifi chips. I could see Nordic seeing this being a great collaboration to further capture marketplace for IoT connectivity beyond Bluetooth.
fidotron
4d ago
1 reply
The brilliance of the ESP devices is not needing anything not included on a basic dev board for a huge raft of applications. The peripheral design is positively wonky, but they do just work.
aDyslecticCrow
3d ago
Making the reference design into a fully usable product in its own right at a very competitive price, gives Espressif a massive advantage over its real competitors. Espressif isn't really in the same market as Arduino, they just happened to intersect.

Arduino is an education and hobby electronics brand. Espressif is a chipset vendor that made its reference design board so complete, cheap and flexible it became valuable as a product on its own. Other chipset vendors sell reference design boards for development, with the expectation that you will change it and produce it yourself to fit your needs. Espressif operate the same way, but if the dev board fit your needs, you don't need to produce squat; you just ship.

Espressif is a massive time saver in product design. Before the first cirquitboard has left the prototype factory, it i already proven to work with a bunch of hardware because you could strap up a bunch of dev boards with a cookie platter of interfaces and prototype from day one, bought from a hobby electronics shop with 1 day shipping.

ACCount37
4d ago
2 replies
I know the code for the Wi-Fi side is a blob infested mess, as usual. But by now, ESP32 has an open source MAC implementation, blob free.

So we know with certainty that it's possible to make Wi-Fi hardware work in a blob-free fashion on a production grade MCU.

fidotron
4d ago
1 reply
Right. We also know how to do code signing and deterministic builds so you could build it and ensure the code you see is what is being executed and that is what is certified.

It's just rather boring to get all the ducks in a row to do it.

ACCount37
4d ago
2 replies
Since when is any of that a requirement?
fidotron
4d ago
1 reply
None of it is a requirement to work on the happy path.

To work as part of a reasonably secure platform that still allows people to develop on it and responsibly sell consumer hardware based on it, yes, it's necessary.

ACCount37
4d ago
1 reply
I'm a big fan of just getting it to work on the happy path. In this case, the rest of it sounds like doing extra work for no reason.

If you don't use the "happy path" builds, the choice is yours, and the consequences are your own. Simple as.

fidotron
4d ago
That tinkering attitude is the root of the problem in the Arduino ecosystem.

Just do things properly - it only has to be done by the vendor anyway, and no one else needs to touch it.

aDyslecticCrow
3d ago
Welcome to the swamp of code certification testing. If I'm lucky to get sources, I also get a PDF describing the optimization flags allowed, and a checksum of every source file. It depends on protocol and domain, but it is very real.

Blobs are popular for a reason, and it's often for the sake of the user of the blob not the maker of the blob.

zoobab
3d ago
1 reply
"But by now, ESP32 has an open source MAC implementation, blob free."

Which one?

ACCount37
3d ago
There was at least one that's in Rust, I remember coming across a talk about it. Done with zero vendor support - not even register lists, all reverse engineering and massive balls.
aleph_minus_one
4d ago
1 reply
> Unless raspberry can significantly expand their market but I doubt it. Year of the RISK V?

The RP2350 has two RISC-V cores (and two Cortex M33 cores).

MayeulC
4d ago
The ESP32-C3 also has a RISC-V core.
Iulioh
4d ago
1 reply
What about ESP32?
ceroxylon
4d ago
1 reply
"Espressif devices" = ESP32
mikestaas
4d ago
the 8266 is pretty nice as well
Stratoscope
4d ago
> Never have been a fan of the programming style encouraged by the Arduino SDK/API

Can you elaborate on that? I have never done anything with Arduino, and after reading this thread I have my doubts that I ever will. But I am curious to hear your thoughts about it, thanks!

tuetuopay
4d ago
3 replies
Welp Qualcomm gonna Qualcomm. It was expected, but I did not expect it to be that blunt.

It takes a serious pair to "forbid reverse-engineering" on a platform aimed at tinkerers.

RyJones
4d ago
5 replies
I could tell you a long, boring story about that; however, it would be long, and boring.
Y_Y
4d ago
1 reply
Don't threaten me with a good time
RyJones
3d ago
One of my friends, Matt, owned Seattle's Metrix Create:Space. He had a pick and place and a problem: Qualcomm had nice chips, but he couldn't buy them on tape, and he couldn't get data sheets.

The CEO of QCA? QCE? Don't remember. Was coming up to Seattle to rub elbows; there was to be a Q&A session afterwards. I told my friend Joe that if none of the employees would ask any hard questions, I would. They didn't and I did: you talk about open source, you talk about how important getting hardware into the world is, but my pal Matt can't get open data sheets or parts on tape. WHO DO I TALK TO?

He gave me someone, after many weeks of going around, they pointed me to the multi-thousand dollar IoT dev kits as the best option. Minimum order was like 1000 units.

markus_zhang
4d ago
1 reply
Please do
RyJones
3d ago
OK. One OEM (I don't remember who, they make TVs and the like) took our BSP and just... sent it out. To millions of devices. Tens of millions of devices. However many TVs there are.

We had just added a TURN implementation to AllJoyn and set up a dev server. Not literally a small machine under someone's desk, but basically that. Maybe a two vCPU VM.

The DDoS was _very_ distributed. The DNS requests knocked Qualcomm off the air.

So we made that an opt-in compile-time feature for all BSPs going forward.

blueflow
4d ago
1 reply
Grandpa telling war stories!
RyJones
3d ago
1: This one isn't about open source, but: the guy that said this and that about how 64 bit ARM was never going to happen? We were working on exactly that at the time.

2: One of my test rigs (not for 64 bit, just AllJoyn): https://www.flickr.com/photos/88509406@N00/53897032602

3: later evolution: https://www.flickr.com/photos/88509406@N00/53898288044

david-gpu
4d ago
3 replies
I have my own war stories from working at Qualcomm. Gather together, children.

Ahem. One upon a time I was the tech lead for one of the many software components in Qualcomm's GPU software stack. At one point there was customer interest in caching certain blobs of data that were relatively costly to compute, in order to reduce the startup times of a wide range of apps.

Since the caching needed to happen across different processes over time, we needed some sort of persistent storage with some metadata to track stuff like usage stats, limit storage requirements, etc. Simple stuff, right? I decided that we didn't need to reinvent the wheel, and thus suggested to the team's most recent hire to use SQLite.

Oh, Dear Lord. That was a mistake. SQLite worked great, no, no. That wasn't the issue. The problem was obtaining approval from Legal to use SQLite in our little project.

"Does SQLite have one of those viral licenses that require you to open-source your own code?" -- you may ask. No, it doesn't. It is the most lax OSS license that you could ask for. Super friendly to commercial closed-source projects.

No, the obstacle was that Legal wanted to audit SQLite line by line, down to the books and research that was mentioned in the comments, searching for anything from copyright infringement within SQLite itself, to patents that may be associated with any of its features. IIRC, it was going to take months and would require approval by my management chain. And any time we wanted to upgrade the version of SQLite we shipped with would require another extensive review.

The feature was canned unceremoniously. Fin.

tuetuopay
4d ago
2 replies
Ah so the Oracle syndrome, where the engineering is a sidekick in the lawyer business?

In all seriousness, this is just appalling. This would make a good poison pill to prevent an opensource project from being used in such a corporation /s

Thanks for sharing! The sad part is, it's the qualcomm customers that pay for the end result.

HeyLaughingBoy
4d ago
Eh. I used to work for a large corporation that had multiple development sites worldwide. I remember telling someone at another site that I was considering using an OSS library. His jaw dropped, "You can use Open-Source? At our location using OSS is a fireable offence."

Both of us were in the US, BTW.

0x457
4d ago
Well, Qualcomm is Oracle of hardware world.
RyJones
3d ago
I used to explain Qualcomm as a navy of lawyers and a dinghy of developers.

I spent SO MUCH TIME getting legal review to publish code.

One of my favorite battles was someone out there in the wild took the Microsoft boilerplate MIDL (MIT 2.0) and stripped the headers, licensing them as GPL. So our boilerplate MIDL files suddenly got ducked and we couldn't ship them any more.

Unless we had someone rewrite them.

zoobab
3d ago
Qualcomm is a patent troll company, driven by lawyers. No surprises here.
tuetuopay
4d ago
1 reply
As we have in France: Père castor, raconte-nous une histoire !

For the rest of the world: it's a children cartoon with a grandpa beaver telling stories to his grandchildren, and has been immensely popular for decades.

So yeah, please do! War stories are always cool

RyJones
3d ago
1 reply
We were working on Windows on ARM for the Surface tablets (funny story: I worked in the office of the CTO of Microsoft in 2008? 2009? and we had a couple of the original Surfaces. Cool machines to demo) and we had a couple of the tablets. We needed like 20 to do testing. We were able to get a couple more. I think the chargeback was on the order of $50k each.

None of them were the same. One of the best engineers I ever worked with, who I'll call Bill, had to reverse-engineer how to JTAG each one to re-flash them, since each tablet was slightly different and undocumented.

Bill was one of the guys in the late 90s, early 2000s that was cracking satellite cards for fun. He also reverse engineered a bunch of CANBUS stuff for another product group. Good times.

Anyways, we all knew it sucked.

mlrtime
3d ago
1 reply
What does it mean to work "in the office of the CTO"? On the surfance it sounds like an admin.

Also, hacking satellite cards was fun, I kinda miss those days. Kids don't know how easy they have it now.

RyJones
3d ago
We just had a couple surfaces.

I was working on a semantic web parser engine tool.

giancarlostoro
4d ago
2 replies
Reminds me of Android. Which is supposed to be a Linux distro.
dingnuts
4d ago
2 replies
It is a Linux distribution, it just turned out that "let me interrupt for a moment" meme was actually correct and what you wanted was a portable GNU distribution with an open kernel, and instead you got a Linux distribution with Google's user space and now instead of realizing the terminology was wrong from the get to you've misidentified the very trick Google played on us.

Turns out a kernel is just a kernel after all, and you really do want GNU+Linux, not just Linux.

giancarlostoro
4d ago
1 reply
I said distro not gnu/linux for a reason, but yeah what I wanted out of Android is a tinkerer friendly OS. I've long since abandoned Android anyway.
esseph
4d ago
What did to accept in Androids place, and did you find your tinkerer friendly OS?
awalsh128
4d ago
Stallman appreciates you saying so. :)
pjmlp
3d ago
Linux crowd expected this, Google by no means ever meant it was supposed to be anything beyond the Linux kernel with a Java userland.

It was launched without NDK, which only came later in Android 2.0 after pressure from game developers, and to work around Dalvik being a primitive VM, thus NDK has always explicitly listed NDK use cases and nothing else.

It is the rest of the community that built false hope that only because it uses the Linux kernel, the NDK should offer more than it does.

Even the Android IoT project that initially started withouth the Java userland with the target to use a C++ based alternative instead (Brillo) didn't last long, and the final version Android Things, even required writing the device drivers in Java.

By the way, Trello drivers are language agnostic, talk via Android IPC with the kernel, and some of them are indeed Java based.

petabyt
4d ago
Rockchip does the same thing with some of their closed source binaries
lemonwaterlime
4d ago
1 reply
I was never a fan of the Maker Movement. While it did get people to tinker, there was always this massive gap between lighting up an LED and using EEPROM, JTAG debugging, interrupts, and even designing some of the more intricate circuit designs to pull of intermediate projects. I found that there were people who knew how to do that stuff and the rest just trying to get by.

The last time I used Arduino, I ended up just coding the bare metal out of necessity for the things I was trying to do. Some functionality of the chips was literally not accessible unless you break out of the sandbox. But then I wondered why we didn't just get people set up without shielding them so much from what it actually takes to do embedded development. Ultimately, the failure of the Maker Movement to me is that there is not an upgrade path. You start blinking LEDs and then what? Thus, lots of people end up being eternal beginners, which I don't think is helpful.

jdc0589
4d ago
1 reply
you aren't a fan because some people never built anything advanced with it? thats a pretty wild take.
lemonwaterlime
4d ago
4 replies
I'm not a fan because, pedagogically, the structure of how it played out never allowed or helped people actually advance in the craft of it. There are better ways to build a tinker culture where people actually improve over time towards what an experienced EE and such can do. I rarely saw that progression.

What happens as a result of this is that someone spends a lot of time tinkering and then they think they know what they are doing. With that confidence, they might apply for a job or take on a more dangerous project. The job will say they don't actually have the skill, even though they have been putting in the time. And the overconfidence could lead to trying to do more dangerous things than they should on projects.

A tinkering culture is fine, but it needs to have safety and skill progression as its foundation. Most Maker Spaces I have been to have done a good job trying to keep things safe, but ultimately, people are people.

nocoiner
4d ago
1 reply
You’re expecting tinkerers to approach the skill level of an experienced EE? Then what is the education and career experience for?

That also seems to have very little to due with the safety concerns you express in your last two paragraphs.

lemonwaterlime
4d ago
1 reply
"Approaching" means to go towards the skillset. A home chef can develop better knife skills when cutting vegetables. That is approaching being a more professional cook, yet it does not mean the person could work in a restaurant. Maybe they could. We're talking about asymptotic.

If you are having understanding this distinction, then that is the exact point I am making about the Maker Movement. It is accepted that people progress if they do, and if they don't, then tough. There is a balance between perpetual tinkering, some sort of progression culture, and a full on degree.

iamnothere
4d ago
Why must they “progress”? Why can’t people have hobbies? If they finish their blinky LED project and decide that’s enough investment into the hobby, why is that a problem?

Think about how many thousands have purchased a musical instrument only to abandon the hobby after a few months. Is that a failure of music-as-a-hobby or just humans being humans?

Most people I know who get into electronics as a hobby aren’t looking at it as a potential career. Myself included! This is the most absurd take I’ve seen all day.

nancyminusone
4d ago
I wonder how many young EEs of today can point to Arduino as their first exposure to electronics. You'll probably have a harder time finding those who don't.

As for "progression", I suppose you're disappointed that very few bicycle owners become professional cyclists.

wat10000
4d ago
I don't think Arduino users need to worry too much about safety. Obviously, don't build hobby projects that put lives on the line, but otherwise they're pretty harmless.

Who says a tinkering culture needs to have skill progression? Maybe people just like to tinker. Maybe simple things are still useful.

Let people do things. Let people enjoy things.

exasperaited
4d ago
> I'm not a fan because, pedagogically, the structure of how it played out never allowed or helped people actually advance in the craft of it. There are better ways to build a tinker culture where people actually improve over time towards what an experienced EE and such can do. I rarely saw that progression.

Did you help establish it?

johnea
4d ago
Thanks for the summary, since I avoid LinkedIn like the plague...
hoistbypetard
4d ago
For anyone else who can’t get to LinkedIn right now:

https://archive.ph/05KK2

hughdangus
4d ago
You really shouldn’t be using Arduino over STM32. Low end STM boards that are price matched with Arduino are not only more powerful by almost a magnitude, but also have an excellent debugging IDE.

The only thing to watch out for are 3V3 vs 5V but then again if you’re doing anything worthwhile you’ve got a stash of buffers, op amps and MOSFETs.

ChrisArchitect
4d ago
Related:

New Arduino T&C: "user shall not [...] reverse-engineer the platform"

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45971039

chrsw
4d ago
I got upvoted then downvoted in the acquisition thread where I suggested this would happen. Anyone who thinks the old Arduino still exists is simply naive.
JohnFen
4d ago
The new terms are entirely unacceptable for any use.

It was nice while it lasted. RIP, Arduino.

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