Back to Home11/12/2025, 5:54:58 PM

Steam Frame

1903 points
693 comments

Mood

excited

Sentiment

positive

Category

tech

Key topics

Steam

gaming sales

PC gaming

Debate intensity60/100

A sale on Steam featuring discounted games and content, generating significant interest and engagement within the HN community.

Snapshot generated from the HN discussion

Discussion Activity

Very active discussion

First comment

2m

Peak period

152

Day 1

Avg / period

53.3

Comment distribution160 data points

Based on 160 loaded comments

Key moments

  1. 01Story posted

    11/12/2025, 5:54:58 PM

    6d ago

    Step 01
  2. 02First comment

    11/12/2025, 5:57:05 PM

    2m after posting

    Step 02
  3. 03Peak activity

    152 comments in Day 1

    Hottest window of the conversation

    Step 03
  4. 04Latest activity

    11/14/2025, 7:58:43 PM

    4d ago

    Step 04

Generating AI Summary...

Analyzing up to 500 comments to identify key contributors and discussion patterns

Discussion (693 comments)
Showing 160 comments of 693
jsheard
6d ago
5 replies
Frame is obviously the main headline here, but they've also launching a new SteamOS mini-PC and a new controller.

https://store.steampowered.com/sale/steammachine

https://store.steampowered.com/sale/steamcontroller

No prices listed for any of them yet, as far as I can tell.

marcosscriven
6d ago
5 replies
Real shame it’s only 60Hz at 4k. There’s a gap for good 120Hz@4k streaming.

Hoping the next Apple TV will do it.

Edit - updated specs claim it can do this, but it’s limited to HDMI 2.0

jsheard
6d ago
2 replies
(rewriting this comment because the spec sheet has seemingly been updated)

Looks like it can do 4k 120hz, but since it's limited to HDMI 2.0 it will have to rely on 4:2:0 chroma subsampling to get there. Unfortunately the lack of HDMI 2.1 might be down to politics, the RDNA3 GPU they're using should support it in hardware, but the HDMI Forum has blocked AMD from releasing an open source HDMI 2.1 implementation.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/02/hdmi-forum-to-amd-no...

PaulHoule
6d ago
1 reply
... but isn't it using a wireless dongle to connect to the headset to the PC so HDMI doesn't get involved?

It seems to me the wireless is pretty important. I have an MQ3 and I have the link cable. For software development I pretty much have to plug the MQ3 into my PC and it is not so bad to wander around the living room looking in a Mars boulder from all sides and such.

For games and apps that involve moving around, particularly things like Beat Saber or Supernatural the standalone headset has a huge advantage of having no cable. If I have a choice between buying a game on Steam or the MQ3 store I'm likely to buy the MQ3 game because of the convenience and freedom of standalone. A really good wireless link changes that.

jsheard
6d ago
> but isn't it using a wireless dongle to connect to the headset to the PC so HDMI doesn't get involved?

I'm talking about the Steam Machine here. In theory you could pipe 4k120 to the headset assuming there's enough wireless bandwidth, yeah.

OGWhales
6d ago
1 reply
It seems it supports DP 1.4 as well, so perhaps you could get an adapter if your display only supports HDMI 2.1
SchemaLoad
6d ago
3 replies
I'm not sure that would work. From what I can tell, the adapters are basically dumb straight through cables, they aren't converting anything. And it's the actual GPU that's outputting a HDMI signal over the Displayport connector, which the adapter than rewires in to a HDMI shaped connector.
cesarb
6d ago
1 reply
> And it's the actual GPU that's outputting a HDMI signal over the Displayport connector, which the adapter than rewires in to a HDMI shaped connector.

There are two kinds of DP to HDMI adapters. The passive ones are like you said, they need special support on the GPU (these ports are usually labelled as DP++), IIRC they only do some voltage level shifting. The active ones work on any DP port (they don't need AFAIK any special support on the GPU), and they do the full protocol conversion.

baq
6d ago
Caveat: the good active ones aren’t exactly cheap.
OGWhales
6d ago
I was able to use this adapter to get my 2070s DisplayPort output to send 4k120hz to my TV, which only has HDMI ports.

Club 3D active adapter: https://www.amazon.com/Club-3D-DisplayPort1-4-Adapter-CAC-10...

LtdJorge
5d ago
It will, I’m doing DP to HDMI 4:4:4 4K@120Hz (and expecting HDR in the near future) from an RX 7900XTX to an LG C3 on Linux.

I’m using the Club3D active adapter, which is the only one I found in reviews to reliably work. And it does, 0 problems whatsoever.

skeaker
6d ago
2 replies
Where are you getting this number? I'm not seeing it on the specs page.
4ndrewl
6d ago
it's confusing rn because on the steam machine post people are commenting on the frame and vice-versa here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45903404

marcosscriven
6d ago
This is for the steam machine, not the headset. Mentioned in the CPU & GPU section.
srjek
6d ago
1 reply
So, in the specs for the mini-pc, it claims the video out can do 4K @ 120Hz (even faster if displayport). I assume the 4K @ 60Hz you saw is from the "4K gaming at 60 FPS with FSR" line.

I reckon it can probably stream at 4K@120 if it can game at half that.

marcosscriven
6d ago
Interesting. I also saw HDMI 2.0 - I guess it’s technically possible but with subsampling?
torginus
6d ago
Considering how much they talk about Foveated rendering, I think it might not be constrained by the traditional limitations of screens - instead of sending a fixed resolution image at whatever frequency, it'll send a tiny but highly detailed image where your eyes are focusing, with the rest being considerably lower resolution.

Or that's what I think I may be completely wrong.

constantcrying
6d ago
This is not true, from the specs:

HDMI 2.0

Up to 4K @ 120Hz

Supports HDR, FreeSync, and CEC

I have zero doubts the device can do 4k @ 120Hz streaming Hardware wise. In the end it is just a normal Linux desktop.

phantasmish
6d ago
2 replies
Oh hell yes. There was a leak of specs (via a benchmarking database) of an upcoming machine from Valve and I had my fingers crossed that it was a mini PC and not some VR thingy, saw this thread, and was sad for a moment before I spotted this post.

6x as powerful as the Steam deck (that I use plugged in anyway 98% of the time—I’d have bought a Steam Deck 2, but I’m glad I get the option to put money toward more performance instead of battery and screen that I don’t use) is great. Not a lot of games I want to play won’t run well at least at 1080p with specs like that.

torginus
6d ago
1 reply
Snapdragon doesn't really have a good history of supporting proper desktop games. Windows for ARM had kinda bad compatibility. It seems the aim is to have most games just be playable like with the Deck. Fingers crossed but I have some reservations.
phantasmish
6d ago
1 reply
Their new mini PC isn’t ARM (the Frame is, though), it’s AMD hardware like the Steam Deck. Appears to be x86, should play basically anything in my library at 1080p or higher as long as it works under SteamOS.
torginus
6d ago
1 reply
I know but the Frame supports regular x86 games as well in standalone mode.
klohto
6d ago
1 reply
you run FEX, not direct ARM games
torginus
6d ago
3 replies
That doesn't magically fix the Qualcomm GPU or the drivers.
scheeseman486
6d ago
1 reply
The GPU is fine and the drivers Valve are using, if their past hardware is any indication, will be open source. Doesn't magically fix them, but it does allow for Valve to fix them.
surajrmal
5d ago
1 reply
If valve can convince Qualcomm to open source their GPU drivers I will eat a banana peel. They would need to write a new one from scratch (or reuse freedreno, but those are going to have performance issues).
scheeseman486
5d ago
Not the first time Valve funded the development of FOSS drivers. They've already done so with Intel's Vulkan stack on Linux, AMD (AMDGPU) and Nvidia (NVK).

SteamOS's core functionality leans heavily on Mesa and there's been a lot of commits for the Adreno 750 lately, mostly coming from Linaro.

klohto
6d ago
I don’t think you will be on latest nightly. LTS are good and stable, if FEX is targeting those specs I don’t see a stability issue.
bigyabai
6d ago
It kinda does. Qualcomm's DirectX drivers were the big issue, and Valve is using Mesa instead.
andoando
6d ago
11 replies
What is the draw of the Steam machine though? They say the price is comparable to similarly specced PC. So why not just buy/build any mini PC? There's plenty of options for that
baggachipz
6d ago
3 replies
A good while back I abandoned PC gaming because I was sick of driver issues, compatibility, and always having to update hardware to play the next game. Instead, I embraced consoles and haven't considered PC gaming since then. This, however, has me reconsidering that. I want it to "just work". When I want to play games, I don't want to deal with all of that other crap. I'm old, ain't nobody got time for that.
barrkel
6d ago
4 replies
I guess you abandoned PC gaming some time in the early 2000s?
kakacik
5d ago
1 reply
Drivers are not an issue for quite some time (but its always good to have latest nvidia ones for example for optimizations focused on given game).

But its trivial to run into some .NET or Visual C++ redistributable hell when you just get a cryptic error during starting and thats it. Just check internet. I have roughly 20 of them installed currently (why the heck?) and earlier versions would happily get installed over already-installed version of same for example as part of game installation process, not a stellar workmanship on MS side. Whats wrong with having latest being backward compatible with all of previous ones, like ie Java achieved 25 years ago?

Talking about fully updated windows 10 and say official steam distros of the games.

baggachipz
5d ago
> Drivers are not an issue for quite some time

> its trivial to run into some .NET or Visual C++ redistributable hell when you just get a cryptic error during starting and thats it. Just check internet.

Thanks for making my point for me.

niek_pas
5d ago
2 replies
I'm guessing you have a very positive experience with gaming PCs; I wish I could say the same. My Windows PC:

  - Randomly BSODs because of (I think) a buggy Focusrite audio interface driver (that I can't fix and Focusrite refuses to)
  - Regularly 'forgets' I have an RX 5600 XT GPU and defaults to the integrated graphics, forcing me to go into the 1995 'Device Manager' to reset it
  - Occasionally just... stops playing audio?
  - Occasionally has its icons disappear from the taskbar
  - Regularly refuses to close applications, making me go into the Task Manager to force-quit them.
These are just the issues I can think of off the top of my head. I've been playing PC games for like 15 years and this is just par for the course for my experience.
IshKebab
5d ago
1 reply
Definitely an outlier. Windows has generally been very very solid since about Windows 7. Certainly since Windows 10.

Linux is still quite far behind in terms of desktop stability in my experience. But I guess if Valve fully controls the hardware they can avoid janky driver issues (it sounds like suspend will work reliably!), so this might actually make a good desktop Linux option.

PoisedProto
4d ago
You are also definitely an outlier. In my experience, Linux has been 5x as stable as Windows (and more performant, too). SteamOS is just Arch Linux with the KDE desktop, the actual desktop stability wont be different from the same setup on a normal PC.
armonster
5d ago
I also had frequent BSOD issues because of a Focusrite audio interface, lol. I've since thrown it out and gotten an alternative brand product and have never had the issues again.
nilkn
5d ago
I can't speak for the other poster, but I actually recently "abandoned" PC gaming. For me, it wasn't a deliberate decision but more of a change in behavior that occurred over time. I suspect the key event was picking up a PS5 Pro. For me, it's the first console that's felt powerful enough to scratch a similar itch as PC gaming -- except I could just plug it into our Atmos-equipped "home theater" set up and have it not only work flawlessly but be easily accessible to everyone, not just me. Since picking it up, between the PS5 Pro and handheld gaming devices, I just have not played a game on my gaming PC a single time and am currently planning on retiring it as a result.

There may be a connection here with age and the type of games I play too. I'm in my mid-30s now and am not interested in competitive twitch shooters like Call of Duty. In many cases, the games I've been interested in have actually been PS5 exclusives or were a mostly equivalent experience on PS5 Pro vs. PC or were actually arguably better on PS5 Pro (e.g., Jedi Survivor). In some cases, like with Doom: The Dark Ages, I've been surprised at how much I enjoyed something I previously would've only considered playing on PC -- the PS5 Pro version still manages to offer both 60 FPS and ray tracing. In other cases, like Diablo IV, I started playing on PC but gradually over time my playtime naturally transitioned almost entirely to PS5 Pro. The last time I played Diablo IV on my PC, which has a 4090, I was shocked at how unstable and stutter-filled the game was with ray tracing enabled, whereas it's comparatively much more stable on PS5 Pro while still offering ray tracing (albeit at 30 FPS -- but I've come to prefer stability > raw FPS in all but the most latency-sensitive games).

One benefit of this approach if you live with someone else or have a family, etc., is that investments in your setup can be experienced by everyone, even non-gamers. For instance, rather than spending thousands of dollars on a gaming PC that only I would use, I've instead been in the market for an upgraded and larger TV for the "home theater", which everyone can use both for gaming and non-gaming purposes.

Something else very cool but still quite niche and poorly understood, even amongst tech circles, is that it's possible to stream PS5 games into the Vision Pro. There are a few ways of doing this, but my preferred method has been using an app called Portal. This is a truly unique experience because of the Vision Pro's combination of high-end displays and quality full-color passthrough / mixed reality. You can essentially get a 4K 120"+ curved screen floating in space in the middle of your room at perfect eye level, with zero glare regardless of any lighting conditions in the room, while still using your surround sound system for audio. The only downside is that streaming does introduce some input latency. I wouldn't play Doom this way, but something like Astro Bot is just phenomenal. This all works flawlessly out of the box with no configuration.

rtkwe
6d ago
I'm quite confused too, that doesn't align with my experience in the last couple years as well. There's notably been a few very good and long lived video cards and also as time goes on there's an ever deepening library of older games that can be played with very affordable cards.

I'm wondering when and with what hardware they had that bad experience.

andoando
6d ago
2 replies
I mean I just don't see the difference between this and getting any PC and slapping SteamOS on it.
rtkwe
6d ago
1 reply
There's not currently a way to officially put SteamOS on Steam* hardware. Plenty of people have done it but there's the usual compatibility issues where the image is built for the very specific hardware Valve installs it on so there's often wake from sleep and fan control issues. All solvable but it's not the level of turn key of even a mainline linux distro.
rtkwe
5d ago
Too late to edit and I think it's clear from context but I meant non-Steam* hardware.
kevinqi
6d ago
probably the "slapping steamOS" part of that
theshackleford
6d ago
It's wild how experiences can vary so wildly. That's the nature of PC's though I suppose that you are trying to avoid.

I've had no driver or compatibility issues in longer than I can remember. Maybe Vista?

I also rarely upgrade because playing at console level settings means I can easily get effectively the same lifetime out of my hardware. Though I do tend to upgrade a little earlier than console users still leaning a bit more towards the enthusiast side.

eptcyka
6d ago
1 reply
Some people really don't want to spend time exchanging parts when the memory they buy turns out to be incompatible or that the GPU doesn't fit the sleek mITX case. There's a lot of research to ensure all parts are compatible and optimal when building a PC - for some it's time that could be better spent on using the PC instead of building one.
andoando
6d ago
2 replies
You can still buy prebuilt though and slap SteamOS on it and youre there.

Dont get me wrong this looks very a nice product, but its nothing revolutionary.

_aavaa_
6d ago
The hardware is not, but the implications are pretty close (major gaming company is pushing a first party product of open hardware + open software with a linux box). It is literally the year of linux desktop.
mjrpes
6d ago
This thing is meant for a living room media center. A prebuilt PC with discrete GPU is a much bigger profile (and probably cost). You could say, fine, go buy a small Mini PC. But a system with the current best AMD Strix 890m GPU not only is expensive at $700-1000, but would only have half the performance of the Steam Box if its conjectured performance is similar to an RX 7600.
remir
6d ago
1 reply
It's a console basically. It comes ready to play without much maintenance needed from the user.
baq
6d ago
One can argue consoles are pcs that the manufacturers try super hard to not allow you to root them.

This steam machine here is a PC with steam preinstalled for a console-like setup and direct boot to your game library - but it’s still a pc.

The point is, computers are computers I guess ;)

rbits
6d ago
1 reply
It's tiny. It runs SteamOS which is built to be used with a controller on a TV. And it will probably be a performance target for many developers.

But I think the biggest feature might be the quick suspend and resume. Every modern console has that, but not PCs. You can try to put a computer to sleep, but many games won't like that.

baq
6d ago
My Windows desktop doesn’t like that. It wakes instantly, no idea why.

Not to mention windows laptops waking up in bags or backpacks in the middle of the night seemingly for the only purpose of burning themselves up.

archagon
6d ago
1 reply
I love SFF PCs, but you can’t get the same density as a manufacturer doing a fully bespoke design. Just look at those innards: no space is wasted.
baq
6d ago
Yeah the heatsink filling the whole silicon-less volume is… something.
foresto
6d ago
As someone who has been building my PCs for decades, I have to admit seeing some appeal here:

It's apparently small, quiet, capable, and easy.

I'll keep building my own, but most people don't, and the value of saved time and reduced hassle should not be underestimated.

If comparing this device to other pre-built systems, consider that this one is likely to be a first class target for game developers, while others are not.

spopejoy
5d ago
PC gaming on the couch at last
Steltek
5d ago
Lots of companies tried to recreate the Steam Deck and quite frankly, they're just not as good as the original.

SteamOS is a super controller-friendly desktop that would be right at home in a living room. Like the Deck, the Steam Machine could become a target profile for developers.

notatoad
6d ago
i've spent plenty of time building custom PCs, but life changes and that's really not something i have any interest in doing any more.

there's plenty of people who just want to play games without researching what CPU and video card to buy.

Codazoa
5d ago
For me it would be the small size and CEC capability. A custom built PC can't currently use CEC on HDMI to have a seamless experience the entire home theater like a console can.
Normal_gaussian
5d ago
The experience of using a custom build is terrible.

The best experience you can get atm is to use Steams big picture mode, and that doesn't give you pause/resume, and you will sometimes need to use keyb & mouse to solve issues, plus you need to manage the whole OS yourself etc.

Valves SteamOS which already runs on the Steam Deck gives you all the QoL that you expect out of a console. Pause / resume with power button press, complete control via controller, fully managed OS.

What's missing are "in experience" native apps like Netflix/AppleTV/etc. as well as support for certain games which are blocked on anti-cheat.

My wife is a research scientist who uses linux with her day job, but she isn't interested in dealing with any nonsense when she's relaxing at the end of the day. The Steam Deck has been a wonder for her - suddenly she's playing the same games as me with none of the hassle. The Steam Machine will suddenly open a bunch of my friends and family up to PC games as well.

It won't be long until you can put SteamOS on any machine you make yourself, but the Steam Machine will serve as reference and "default" hardware for the majority.

JBiserkov
6d ago
2 replies
A bit of topic, but I was wondering how much bigger is the steam machine compared to the mac mini m4, since that's what I have and is my frame of reference. Obviously comparing apples to oranges and only talking about physical volume, not features, compatibility, price, personal preferences, etc.

Mac Mini m4: 127 x 127 x 50 mm = 0.8 L

Steam Machine: 156 x 162 x 152 = 3.8 L

That's 4.76 times more volume.

latexr
6d ago
1 reply
> Obviously comparing apples to oranges

Or is it “comparing apples to steam engines”?

TuringTest
6d ago
Given that Valve are the ones who released the Orange Box, methinks the original comparison is valid
bakies
6d ago
It's only a little bigger than Mac Studio.

9.5 x 19.7 x 19.7 cm = 3,687 cm³

and half the size of my SFFPC @ 8.3L

komali2
6d ago
1 reply
I am incredibly excited for the new controller. The og steam controller for me was unmatched as a controller, I could never play any first person game on anything else other than mouse and keyboard, not to mention it allows playing rts or point and clicks from the couch.

When they cancelled production I bought 8.

tosmatos
6d ago
1 reply
The controller looks pretty cool for sure, my biggest fear is the dpad though. I hope they go for a clicky feel like on the latest xbox controllers, and not the mushy feel you've got on the Dualshock 5 or even the 8BitDo Pro 2, which, for me, really is the only think missing from those. I'm more of a "Dpad in the top left" kind of guy, but I want it to be clicky like on the Xbox controllers :( We'll see!
komali2
5d ago
I'm with you on the dpad. For me I've never found better dpads outside of retro focused controllers from companies like 8bitdo, so when I want to play a retro game with dpad I just grab one of those and use my steam controller for everything else.
thefz
6d ago
1 reply
> Frame is obviously the main headline here

Why? VR headsets are a dying fad of the 2020s. Way more excited for SteamOS on ARM.

russelg
6d ago
... which likely wouldn't have happened if they didn't want a computer inside their VR headset. The steam machine is x86 considering it's an AMD processor.
reactordev
6d ago
2 replies
These links open Steam app on my phone and crash immediately.
archi42
6d ago
1 reply
Same here. Also happens when navigating there from within the all.

Open the website in your browser instead.

reactordev
6d ago
Crashes in the browser as well. Good job Valve.
Ciantic
6d ago
1 reply
What the, this link also crashes KDE Plasma, when opening this link with Google Chrome. I had to reboot two times, just clicking this frame link.

Both times, first journalctl entry in the crash time is:

[drm:__nv_drm_gem_nvkms_map [nvidia_drm]] ERROR [nvidia-drm] [GPU ID 0x00000100] Failed to map NvKmsKapiMemory 0x0000000070a84e8b

Then KWIN dump etc.

Reminding me to buy AMD next.

reactordev
6d ago
1 reply
This is due to a video that has drm encoding and the browser trying to decode it. The drm blob contains the codec keys in our driver and the browser is supposed to negotiate this. It fails. At least on Nvidia for you. It fails for me on safari on iOS.
seba_dos1
6d ago
DRM in context of that log message is Direct Rendering Manager which is a Linux subsystem for handling GPUs; it's unrelated to Digital Rights/Restrictions Management and there are no DRM-encumbered videos on that page.
skeaker
6d ago
4 replies
This being a whole system that will allow you to put whatever software you want onto it makes me think that it might actually succeed at being what the Vision Pro wanted to be.
stetrain
6d ago
3 replies
This isn’t likely to be a compelling spatial computer.

The pass-through video is monochrome and the screens have about 40% of the pixels compared to the Vision Pro.

The Samsung Galaxy XR is much closer to being a Vision Pro competitor.

The Steam Frame is very focused on playing games locally and streamed from a PC.

Philpax
6d ago
1 reply
I'd be willing to take the L on the hardware in order to be able to actually run the software I care about. (I own a Vision Pro and barely use it because the pejorative description of "an iPad on your face" is more accurate than I would like to admit.)
stetrain
6d ago
I don’t know exactly how open the Android XR system on the Galaxy XR is, but it is likely better than the Vison Pro in that regard.
skeaker
6d ago
Monochrome is rough, but I think pixel count is a few orders of magnitude less important than being able to actually use the damn thing. The Vision Pro has been out for over a year and I haven't seen a single notable application that takes advantage of the hardware, and it seems that that's largely in part due to it being nigh impossible to develop and run software on it.
wayeq
6d ago
> This isn’t likely to be a compelling spatial computer.

neither is the Apple Vision Pro

mavamaarten
6d ago
I would agree, but I'm a bit sad about the resolution. I either want a mediocre resolution for cheap, or a can-do-it-all machine with great resolution for more money. I'm fearful that because of its great computing specs it's going to be expensive, but it's not going to be good enough for me visually to be used a lot.

I mean, I have a Quest 2 and it'd be a step up but not a huge one. I've seen the Apple Vision and that did wow me. The vision is just in a weird corner inside a closed ecosystem and a tech demo for apple. No thanks. Valve will absolutely do that ten times better. But will it be visually so much better than a quest 2? I doubt it.

taeric
6d ago
Well, that and being squarely focused on gaming.

I also trust the Steam ecosystem far more than I probably should...

crooked-v
6d ago
Vision Pro wants to be an iPad on your face. The hardware's just not good enough (in the sense of general manufacturing capabilities, not lack of investment from Apple) to make that an enticing product yet.
ark4n
6d ago
1 reply
That mini pc... one more nail in the coffin of the xbox hardware business. Ouch.
30minAdayHN
6d ago
I bought all my sim racing setup for my xbox. It was short-sighted but optimized for a quick decision. Now I feel like I'm stuck with it and can't upgrade the setup forward. Everytime I see these comments, it's one more nail in my wallet :)
rowanG077
6d ago
1 reply
This explains why alyssa rosenzweig (from asahi linux) was paid for so long by Valve. She worked on FEX.
porridgeraisin
6d ago
2 replies
What's fex? I wasn't able to google search it (didn't try too hard admittedly)
Tankenstein
6d ago
1 reply
x86 to arm compatibility layer they are using to run windows games on the machine/frame
tym0
6d ago
1 reply
Steam Machine is x86_64
dathinab
6d ago
The VR headset isn't and it's cable of both running games standalone and displaying games through the dongle from whatever PC you run.
Jordan-117
6d ago
srjek
6d ago
2 replies
Steam Frame is running SteamOS on ARM, and is capable of playing games standalone, which implies ARM support in Steam. Through granted, it could be in a limited form.
01HNNWZ0MV43FF
6d ago
2 replies
They'll need that either way if they want to get back onto macOS, even if it's separate binaries and not a translation layer. At this point I think Steam basically doesn't work on Mac? Since the x64 Macs are legacy and the new ones are aarch64
preisschild
6d ago
1 reply
I doubt fex-emu works on macos.

But isnt that what Rosetta2 is for on mac anyway?

iamcreasy
6d ago
Rosetta2 will be discontinued.
SchemaLoad
6d ago
It technically works since ARM macs can still run x86 binaries. But it's so slow and buggy, and the selection of playable games so slim that there is almost no point.
jagermo
5d ago
they are porting FEX to Proton, and according to the VRUpload article linked it has "shockingly little performance impact". This could be fun.

https://github.com/FEX-Emu/FEX

fallingmeat
6d ago
1 reply
any idea on price?
jagermo
5d ago
"below the index", according to the UploadVR article linked. So below 1000 USD
Night_Thastus
6d ago
5 replies
The whole "foveated streaming" sounds absolutely fascinating. If they can actually pull off doing it accurately in real time, that would be incredible. I can't even imagine the technical work behind the scenes to make it all work.

I'd really like to know what the experience is like of using it, both for games and something like video.

rowanG077
6d ago
3 replies
There is a LTT video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU3ru09HTng

Linus says he cannot tell it is actually foveated streaming.

Night_Thastus
6d ago
1 reply
I believe in Linus very little. I'll keep my eyes peeled to see what others say. It's certainly possible though, Valve has the chops to pull it off.
stetrain
6d ago
1 reply
Norm from Tested said the same in his video.

https://youtu.be/b7q2CS8HDHU

potatolicious
6d ago
1 reply
The Verge reports similarly - can't tell foveated streaming. Seems like Valve really cracked the code with this one.
nabakin
6d ago
2 replies
I don't think a lot of people realize how big of a deal this is. You used to have to choose between wireless and slow or wired and fast. Now you can have both wireless and fast. It's insane.
stetrain
6d ago
1 reply
Yep, that basically guarantees this as a purchase for me. It's basically a Quest 3 with some improvements, an open non-Meta OS, and the various WiFi and Streaming app issues fixed to make it nearly as good as a wired headset.
nabakin
6d ago
I haven't bought a VR headset since the Oculus Rift CV1, but this might do it for me
ehnto
6d ago
If you are lucky enough to have wired as an option anyway, especially in linux this has been shaky. But with Steam continuing to push into linux and VR I have no doubt this will change quickly.
birdman3131
6d ago
3 replies
Thats not what he said. What he said was even rapidly moving his eyes around he could not spot the lower resolution part.
stetrain
6d ago
How is that meaningfully different than not being able to tell that it's foveated?
rowanG077
6d ago
If you are going to be pedantic then at least do it right. Because that's also not what he said. He said that no matter how fast he moved his eyes he wasn't able to catch it.
archon810
6d ago
nabakin
6d ago
Also mentions 1-2ms latency on a modern GPU
pixelpoet
6d ago
4 replies
There's an awesome shader on shadertoy that illustrates just how extreme the fovea focus is: https://www.shadertoy.com/view/4dsXzM

Linus the shrill/yappy poodle and his channel are less than worthless IMO.

Night_Thastus
6d ago
4 replies
Imagine if we could hook this into game rendering as well. Have super high resolution models, textures, shadows, etc near where the player is looking, and use lower LoDs elsewhere.

It could really push the boundaries of detail and efficiency, if we could somehow do it real-time for something that complex. (Streaming video sounds a lot easier)

scld
6d ago
2 replies
Game rendering is what they're talking about here. John Carmack has talked about this a bunch if you'd like to seed a google search.
FeepingCreature
6d ago
1 reply
Not quite: you can use it for games rendering, but with a Wifi adapter you more importantly want to use it for the video signal, and only transfer highres in the area you're looking at. A 4k game (2048*2048*2 screens) is 25gbit uncompressed at 100fps, which would stress even Wifi-7. With foveated rendering you can probably get that down to 8gbit easy.
LtdJorge
5d ago
Not just stress WiFi 7, even if the theoretical limit is 23Gbps, you’re not getting anywhere close to that sending to just one device.
rtkwe
5d ago
Valve is applying it to the streamed view from the computer to reduce the bandwidth requirements it's not actually doing foveated rendering in the game itself because not all games support it.

Foveated streaming is just a bandwidth hack and doesn't reduce the graphic requirements on the host computer the same way foveated rendering does.

pixelpoet
6d ago
1 reply
As a lover of ray/path tracing I'm obligated to point out: rasterisation gets its efficiency by amortising the cost of per-triangle setup over many pixels. This more or less forces you to do fixed-resolution rendering; it's very efficient at this, which is why even today with hardware RT, rasterisation remains the fastest and most power-efficient way to do visibility processing (under certain conditions). However, this efficiency starts to drop off as soon as you want to do things like stencil reflections, and especially shadow maps, to say nothing of global illumination.

While there are some recent'ish extensions to do variable-rate shading in rasterisation[0], this isn't variable-rate visibility determination (well, you can do stochastic rasterisation[1], but it's not implemented in hardware), and with ray tracing you can do as fine-grained distribution of rays as you like.

TL;DR for foveated rendering, ray tracing is the efficiency king, not rasterisation. But don't worry, ray tracing will eventually replace all rasterisation anyway :)

[0] https://developer.nvidia.com/vrworks/graphics/variableratesh...

[1] https://research.nvidia.com/sites/default/files/pubs/2010-06...

Taterr
6d ago
1 reply
I think you could do foveated rendering efficiently with rasterization if you "simply" render twice at 2 different resolutions. A low resolution render over the entire FOV, and a higher resolution render in the fovea region. You would have overlap but overall it should be less pixels rendered.
FeepingCreature
6d ago
I believe the standard way is to downgrade the sampling density outside the area you're looking, see https://docs.vulkan.org/samples/latest/samples/extensions/fr... . Optimally you could attach multiple buffers with different resolutions covering different parts of clipspace, saving vram bandwidth. Sadly this is not supported currently to my knowledge, so you have to write to a single giant buffer with lower sample resolution outside the detail area, and then just downsample it for the coarse layer.
globular-toast
5d ago
That's foveated rendering. Foveated streaming, which is newly presented here, is a more general approach which can apply to any video signal, be it from a game, movie or desktop environment.

They are complementary things. Foveated rendering means your GPU has to do less work which means higher frame rates for the same resolution/quality settings. Foveated streaming is more about just being able get video data across from the rendering device to the headset. You need both things to get great results as either rendering or video transport could be a bottleneck.

ziml77
6d ago
Foveated rendering is already a thing. But since it needs to be coded for in the game, it's not really being used on PC games. Games designed for Playstation with the PS VR 2 in mind do use foveated rendering since they know their games are being played with hardware that provides eye tracking.
globular-toast
6d ago
2 replies
That's crazy. I feel dumb for initial thinking it was somehow doing eye tracking to achieve this, despite having no such hardware installed.

I would be curious to see a similar thing that includes flashing. Anecdotally, my peripheral vision seems to be highly sensitive to flashing/strobing even if it is evidently poor at seeing fine details. Make me think compression in the time domain (e.g. reducing frame rate) will be less effective. But I wonder if the flashing would "wake up" the peripheral vision to changes it can't normally detect.

Not sure what the random jab at Linus is about.

jackwilsdon
5d ago
1 reply
It is doing eye tracking for the foveated rendering - it has 2 cameras inside the visor for it.
x187463
5d ago
They're referring to the shadertoy linked above. The illusion simulates foveated rendering on your device without eye tracking.
LtdJorge
5d ago
It’s normal to be "more sensitive" to brightness differences in the peripheral areas compared to the fovea. The fovea has more color receptors, in the other areas, there are comparatively more monochromatic receptors (brightness). The general density of the fovea is also much larger.
ehnto
6d ago
That's quite harsh, and definitely not accurate.
jasonjmcghee
6d ago
When you full screen this, it's crazy how tiny the area that spins is. For me it's like an inch or inch and a half on a 32 inch 4k display at a normal seated position.

(If I move my head closer it gets larger, further and it gets smaller)

modeless
6d ago
Foveated streaming should be much easier to implement than foveated rendering. Just encode two streams, a low res one and a high res one, and move the high res one around.
ghosty141
6d ago
I'm super curious how they will implement it, if it's a general api in steam vr that headsets like the Bigscreen Beyond could use or if it's more tailored towards the Frame. I hope it's the first as to me it sounds like all you need is eye input and the two streams, the rest could be done by steam-vr.
ynx
6d ago
If you use a Quest Pro and use Steam Link with a WiFi 6E access point, that should accurately represent the experience of using it.

It's close to imperceptible in normal usage.

ThatPlayer
6d ago
3 replies
I'm disappointed it seems to have dropped lighthouse tracking with the previous Valve Index. Especially because with the Valve Knuckles controllers are my favorite with how they strap to your hand.
starkrights
6d ago
1 reply
Per the LTT video [0], the new Steam Frame controllers will have a (separately purchasable) accessory pack which includes a knuckles-like strap. Supposedly the controllers have enough capacitive-sensing ("on every input surface, and on the grips") for knuckles-like five finger tracking.

Linus says "just like" the valve knuckles a couple times, but who knows how they'll feel comparatively. I've personally never used the knuckles, but they seem like they'd have a different enough feel from these to maybe make a difference.

[0]: https://youtu.be/dU3ru09HTng?t=246 - timestampped @ controller section.

ehnto
6d ago
These new controllers look just like the Quest 3 controllers. Ergonomically I really like them, and they have capacitive touch for most surfaces as well.
Fabricio20
6d ago
1 reply
This is my main concern with the new headset.. hopefully they have a way to support lighthouse.. maybe as an "upgrade" to the tracking if you already have a lighthouse setup. I play a game called VTOLVR and it's atrocious on the quest with inside-out tracking, because the game VERY often has you looking in a direction where your arm is behind your back or behind your leg (from the VR's perspective) and it completely loses tracking.. literally killing you in game sometimes. Think "looking up and behind you for threats" while your hand is in the throttle/stick for a combat plane.
tart-lemonade
6d ago
1 reply
It does have IR tracking, so presumably it could be made compatible with lighthouses, but if they don't make it compatible (and currently the page makes no mention of it) I don't know how well it could track objects out of frame considering the cameras are still mounted on the headset.

The controllers also have gyros, but from what I've read dead reckoning from gyros small enough for mobile devices really isn't reliable for extended periods.

ThatPlayer
6d ago
1 reply
The controllers won't have lighthouse tracking though. The IR tracking is the headset tracking the controller's IR LEDs, which the Index controllers do not have. It might be possible to have the headset IR track the lighthouses, and then use the old Index controllers, which also track the lighthouses.

There's also tools to calibrate the different tracking methods together, but that seems less than ideal.

tart-lemonade
5d ago
Good catch, I just saw IR tracking on the page and didn't investigate further. I can't wait to see some teardowns (physical and firmware) of the device, then we can get a better look at what it is truly capable of.

Though it wouldn't help the controllers, perhaps the expansion port on the headset could be used for a lighthouse-compatible tracker? (One can dream...)

Diti
6d ago
Not to mention the insane precision (I believe it’s something like 1 or 2 mm).
craftkiller
6d ago
3 replies
Excited to see that it uses LCDs instead of OLED! One of the things holding me back from head-mounted displays is the short lifespan / burn-in issues of OLED. Also loving the replaceable batteries on the controller.
marcosscriven
6d ago
1 reply
Personally I much prefer OLED, especially for VR, and haven’t had any burn in issues with OLED in any form for years.
craftkiller
6d ago
1 reply
Even modern OLED experience burn-in (despite them announcing every year that "this time we solved the burn-in issue!"): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whuHuM9h88M

VR is particularly bad for this because, on OLED, higher brightness = greater burn-in and VR headsets generally significantly over-drive their tiny displays.

Naturally the solution to all of this is MicroLED which will have the benefits of OLED without the downsides. But until then, the only device I'm using OLED for is my phone (and only because I no longer have a choice).

0x457
6d ago
> Even modern OLED experience burn-in (despite them announcing every year that "this time we solved the burn-in issue!"):

Yes, but it's not degrading as fast as OLED haters makes you think. I spent days playing the same games (so HUD is in the static place) on multiple OLED screens I owned for years. No noticeable burn-in and still looks better than my only IPS screen.

AndroTux
6d ago
2 replies
OLED only burns in if the content is static for hours. If your head is that stable while using VR, I give you $5.
craftkiller
6d ago
2 replies
Do your VR games not have static HUDs / UIs? It has been a long time since I picked up a VR game since I no longer have the room.
ghosty141
6d ago
Not really, most HUDs are fixed to thigns like your hands, guns, etc. or don't exist at all.

Static objects in your view are VERY nauseating (at least in my experience).

rft
6d ago
I have seen different options of "HUDs" in VR games, not all are actually "heads up". Adding them to the proper context sometimes makes more sense than having them floating in mid air like in pancake view. Examples I have seen are 1) ammo count on the weapon directly, 2) score and score board to the side or projected onto the "floor", 3) attached to cockpit elements in space/flight sims and 4) somewhat affected by physics so they rubber band a bit with movements. I can't come up with an example of fully static HUD elements, but I am sure I have seen some.

And even if fully static contents were a problem, I guess the foveated streaming would introduce enough noise to counter burn-in.

t-writescode
6d ago
1 reply
OLED is always burning in as a feature of it. It’s just much less noticeable when it’s:

  * cooled aggressively 
  * constantly changing colors (more even wear)
But it is still always losing durability in a steady way.
hnuser123456
6d ago
1 reply
I used colorcontrol to enter the service menu of my LG C2 and disable all anti-burn-in features. No auto dimming, no auto picture level, no anti-logo, etc. The only one I kept is pixel shift because it's only noticeable if you're looking at the edge of the screen when it moves, it's a tiny movement. I skip the "pixel cleaning" prompt every time it wants me to wait. When I'm gaming in HDR, I use filters to increase the exposure to get the maximum brightness range of the panel. Been using it like that for ~8hrs/day for over 2 years now. Zero detectable hint of burn-in.
Fabricio20
6d ago
If you want a different anecdote, I have a LG C1 that got burn in after a year of use, playing FFXIV. I can see a blue outline of where my minimap and hotbars are. HUD burn-in. The only thing I disabled was the dimming feature, because it's outright annoying to use, where every time i'd scroll it'd make the text on a page illegiblly dark. (Dark mode pages, white text becomes dark gray while scrolling then back to white when stopped... sometimes not!). I moved that TV to the living room and got a non oled samsung instead which is what I use now.
SkyPuncher
6d ago
I'm just not convinced it's really much of an issues now-a-days. We have an OLED in our main space and it's on nearly all day (I like keeping sound on while I work from home).

Zero sense of burn in.

woile
6d ago
1 reply
Is the steam controller registering as a joystick and a mouse? It could be amazing to manage my current media center! As I cannot make KDE detect my current controller as a mouse
mmis1000
6d ago
1 reply
It seems the controller on steamdeck on windows detects as such when steam or whatever companion program is not running. Although in this state. You can only right click or left click by pressing against the pad itself.

Although on Linux side. As far as i remembered, it's up to how kernel driver developer to map the device input into different class. It would be up to valve to decide what to do in this case.

baq
6d ago
> You can only right click or left click by pressing against the pad itself

The original steam controller’s LT and RT work as mouse buttons in mouse mode, too. Source: have 3 steam controllers

Pfhortune
6d ago
At last! I really enjoyed my time with the Oculus Quest 2, but could not stomach having Meta in my house/on my network. I sold it and resolved to either wait until I could get a good deal on an Index or Valve came around with something new, and now I can look forward to VR again!
taeric
6d ago
I'm unreasonably excited on all things Steam nowadays. I still like my PS5. And the PSVR2 is quite amazing for the games it has. But Steam has been amazing in getting back into games for me in ways that I did not anticipate.

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