Qwen3-Next
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The Qwen3-Next model has been released, impressing the community with its performance and efficiency, sparking discussions on its capabilities, comparisons to other models, and potential implications for AI development and deployment.
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That being said, qwen models are extremely overfit. They can do some things well, but they are very limited in generalisation, compared to closed models. I don't know if it's simply scale, or training recipes, or regimes. But if you test it ood the models utterly fail to deliver, where the closed models still provide value.
- in math, if they can solve a problem, or a class of problems, they'll solve it. If you use a "thinking" model + maj@x, you'll get strong results. But if you try for example to have the model consider a particular way or method of exploring a problem, it'll default to "solving" mode. It's near impossible to have it do something else with a math problem, other than solving it. Say "explore this part, in this way, using this method". Can't do it. It'll maybe play a bit, but then enter "solving" mdoe and continue to solve it as it was trained.
In practice, this means that "massive parallel" test time compute becomes harder to do with these models, because you can't "guide" them towards certain aspects of a problem. They are extremely "stubborn".
- in coding it's even more obvious. Ask them to produce any 0shot often tested and often shown things (spa, game, visualisation, etc) - and they do it. Convincingly.
But ask them to look at a piece of code and extract meaning, and they fail. Or ask them to reverse an implementation. Figure out what a function does and reverse its use, or make it do something else, and they fail.
It does sound like an artifact of the dialog/thinking tuning though.
Deepseek R1 also has a MTP layer (layer 61) https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-R1/blob/main/mod...
But Deepseek R1 adds embed_tokens and shared_head.head tensors, which are [129280, 7168] or about 2GB in size at FP8.
Qwen3-Next doesn't have that: https://huggingface.co/Qwen/Qwen3-Next-80B-A3B-Instruct/blob...
So it saves a few GB in active parameters for MTP, which is a Big Deal. This is one of the changes that helps significantly speeds up inference.
Instead of generating tokens one at a time, you generate the second one as well, and then use speculative decoding on that second token (instead of having it be produced by a draft model like Qwen 0.6b). If the token is checked and is correct, then the 2nd token gets generated MUCH faster.
If it's wrong, you have to generate it again the normal way (a lot slower than just checking it). Usually, it's correct, so inference is a lot faster.
Let's say you have a model that generates the string "The 44th president of the United States is ___ ___". Your model will generate "Barack" as the n+1 token, and the MTP layer probably does a good enough job to generate "Obama" as the n+2 token (even though that MTP layer is a mere <2bil parameters in size). Then you just check if "Obama" is correct via the same speculative decoding process, which is a lot faster than if you had to start over from layer 1-48 and generate "Obama" the regular way.
That doesn't match my understanding of what speculative decoding does: AFAIK with regular speculative decoding you ask a smaller llm infer the next few tokens (let say 5 tokens) and then, you can have the big model infer token 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 in parallel (each time starting from the sentence partially completed by the smaller model). Because llms are bandwidth bound, doing the same work six times in parallel isn't slower than doing it only once (what's costly is moving the massive model weights between VRAM and the GPU cores).
If token 1,2 and 3 match what the small models inferred, then you keep them. As soon as you have a mismatched token (say token 4) it means that you have to discard the next inferred tokens (here token 5 and 6) because they were calculated under a wrong assumption for token 4.
So if the MTP layer merely replace the smaller llm in the previous scheme with everything else working the same way, you would save anything when inferring “Obama” (you'd still need to “generate it the regular way”, as there isn't really another way) but you could also start working on the word immediately after “Obama” by assuming “Obama” was already chose. And if the model actually outputted “Hussein” instead of “Obama”, then the token calculated to happen after “Obama” would have to be discarded.
Or maybe my understanding of speculative decoding is completely off…
If n+1 = "Barack" then n+2 = "Obama" (confidence: 0.90) If n+1 = "The" then n+2 = "quick" (confidence: 0.45) If n+1 = "President" then n+2 = "Biden" (confidence: 0.75)
A threshold is set (say, as 90%) so that if the n+2 prediction is above that (as in the first example) it uses it without having to determine it with the main model. It's confident "enough".
You compute the next token and guess the one after; then you try to take the guess for real and compute the one after together with running inference for the guessed one, and the one after is speculated on the guess being correct.
I’m not an expert on LLMs, just a user.
Checking a token is the same as generating it.
The benefit however is in the next (third) token. After generating tokens 1 and 2 (in one turn), you start generating token 3 (and 4). You also get the “real” prediction for token 2. If the “real” prediction matches the MTP (Multi-Token Prediction) from previous turn, you have just generated 3 correct tokens (and another speculative). If not, you’ve now corrected token 2, but token 3 is wrong (it follows the wrong token 2) so you need ti generate it again.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculative_execution
Does it work to predict tokens 3 and 4 (or 5, 6) in the same way? I wonder how extreme the hit rate drop-off is.
If you don’t know the future tokens though, then you can’t, and blind guessing of tokens is infeasible because the vocabulary contains circa 100k possible different tokens.
It is only useful for inference and doesn't help with pretraining. Which actually points to speculative decoding not being sufficiently general, as the same underlying property (some sequences of tokens are easy to predict) could be exploited for training as well. See here: https://goombalab.github.io/blog/2025/hnet-future/#d-footnot...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aircAruvnKk&list=PLZHQObOWTQ...
and other helpers like Artem Kirsanov:
LLMs take your input, upscale it into a very high dimensional space, and then downscale it back to 1D at the end. This 1D list is interpreted as a list of probabilities -- one for each word in your vocabulary. i.e f(x) = downscale(upscale(x)). Each of downscale() and upscale() are parameterized (billions of params). I see you have a gamedev background, so as an example: bezier curves are parameterized functions where bezier handles are the parameters. During training, these parameters are continuously adjusted so that the output of the overall function gets closer to the expected result. Neural networks are just really flexible functions for which you can choose parameters to get any expected result, provided you have enough of them (similar to bezier curves in this regard).
---
When training, you make an LLM learn that
I use arch = downscale(upscale(I use))
If you want to predict the next word after that, you do next in sequence the following:
I use arch btw = downscale(upscale(I use arch))
Now, multi-token prediction is having two downscale functions, one for each of the next two words, and learning it that way, basically, you have a second downscale2() that learns how to predict the next-to-next word.
i.e in parallel:
I use arch = downscale1(upscale(I use))
I use ____ btw = downscale2(upscale(I use))
However, this way you'll need twice the number of parameters downscale needs. And if you want to predict more tokens ahead you'll need even more parameters.
What Qwen has done, is instead of downscale1 and downscale2 being completely separately parameterized functions, they set downscale1(.) = lightweight1(downscale_common(.)) and downscale2(.) = lightweight2(downscale_common(.)). This is essentially betting that a lot of the logic is common and the difference between predicting the next and next-to-next token can be captured in one lightweight function each. Lightweight here, means less parameters. The bet paid off.
So overall, you save params.
Concretely,
Before: downscale1.params + downscale2.params
After: downscale_common.params + lightweight1.params + lightweight2.params
Edit: its actually downscale_common(lightweight()) and not the other way around as I have written above. Doesn't change the crux of the answer, but just including this for clarity.
I use ____ ___ = downscale_common(lightweight1(.)) + downscale_common(lightweight2(.)) ?
And does it generate 2 at a time and keep going that way, or is there some overlap?If you try to predict the whole thing at once you might end up with
I like cats because they are all the rats and they garden
> Overlap
Check out an inference method called self-speculative decoding which solves(somewhat) the above problem of k-token prediction, which does overlap the same ___ across multiple computations.
Thanks for the tailored response! ^^
Unlike many disciplines, AI is an arena that doesn't have a lot of intuitive simplified models that are accurate -- most of the simplified models available do not accurately describe what's going on enough to reason about and understand them. So, you just have to start reading!
I don't think it move this fast.
I mean there is very little fundamental differences between GPT-2 and gpt-oss-120b, it's just about incremental improvement that don't change much to the full picture (using a variation of the attention architecture and masking, a different activation function, the positional encoding and changing the NLP layers to a sparse “mixture of expert”), at the end of the day, from Mistral to Deepseek going through llama and Qwen3 it's always the same stack of transformers layers with slight variations between two architectures.
This Qwen3-Next is special though, as it's the first time a major player is releasing something that different (lesser players have made hybrid architecture LLMs for the past two years, but when it comes to language models, IBM really isn't comparable to Alibaba). This is what I expected Llama4 to be.
Qwen3-Next — A family of large language models from Qwen (Alibaba).
DeepSeek R1 — Another large open-source language model from DeepSeek AI.
Linear attention — A type of transformer attention that scales linearly with sequence length, making long-context processing cheaper.
MTP (Multi-Token Prediction) — Training/inference trick where the model predicts multiple future tokens at once, speeding things up.
Embedding — Converts words/tokens into vectors (numbers) the model can work with.
Un-embedding — The reverse step: mapping the model’s internal vector back into tokens.
embed_tokens — The big lookup table of embeddings (token → vector).
shared_head.head tensors — Extra weight matrices used for prediction; they can be huge.
[129280, 7168] — The shape of such a tensor: ~129k rows (tokens in the vocab) × 7k columns (hidden dimension).
FP8 — Floating-point format using 8 bits (compact, faster, less precise).
Active parameters — The weights that actually need to be loaded in GPU memory to run the model.
Inference — Running the model to generate text (as opposed to training it).
GB savings — If you avoid duplicating giant matrices, you save GPU memory and speed things up.This stuff can run on a local machine without internet access, correct?
And it can pretty much match Nano Banana? https://github.com/PicoTrex/Awesome-Nano-Banana-images/blob/...
Also -- what are the specs for a machine to run it (even if slowly!)
Make sure to lurk on r/LocalLlama.
Please do take everything you read there with a bit of salt though, as the "hive-mind" effect is huge there, even when compared to other subreddits.
I'm guessing the huge influx of money + reputations on the line + a high traffic community is ripe for both hive-minding + influence campaigns.
Yes.
> And it can pretty much match Nano Banana?
No, Qwen3-Next is not a multimodal model, it has no image generation function.
the model discussed here is text model, so similar to ChatGPT. You can also run it on your local machine, but not yet, as apps need to be updated with Qwen 3 Next support (llama.cpp, Ollama, etc)
This has nothing to do with nano banana, or image generation. For that you want the qwen image edit[1] models.
Which llama.cpp flags are you using, because I am absolutely not having the same bug you are.
Please publish your own benchmarks proving me wrong.
LM Studio defaults to 12/36 layers on the GPU for that model on my machine, but you can crank it to all 36 on the GPU. That does slow it down but I'm not finding it unusable and it seems like it has some advantages - but I doubt I'm going to run it this way.
- Prompt processing 65k tokens: 4818 tokens/s
- Token generation 8k tokens: 221 tokens/s
If I offload just the experts to run on the CPU I get:
- Prompt processing 65k tokens: 3039 tokens/s
- Token generation 8k tokens: 42.85 tokens/s
As you can see, token generation is over 5x slower. This is only using ~5.5GB VRAM, so the token generation could be sped up a small amount by moving a few of the experts onto the GPU.
It's really not that much code, though, and all the actual capabilities are there as of about mid this year. I think someone will make this work and it will be a huge efficiency for the right model/workflow combinations (effectively, being able to run 1T parameter MoE models on GB200 NVL4 at "full speed" if your workload has the right characteristics).
But in practice you need a bit more than that. You also need some space for context, and then for kv cache, potentially a model graph, etc.
So you'll see in practice that you need 20-50% more RAM than this rule of thumb.
For this model, you'll need anywhere from 50GB (tight) to 200GB (full) RAM. But it also depends how you run it. With MoE models, you can selectively load some experts (parts of the model) in VRAM, while offloading some in RAM. Or you could run it fully on CPU+RAM, since the active parameters are low - 3B. This should work pretty well even on older systems (DDR4).
That being said, there are libraries that can load a model layer by layer (say from an ssd) and technically perform inference with ~8gb of RAM, but it'd be really really slow.
Here's a classic ASCII art representation of SpongeBob SquarePants:
.------.
/ o o \
| |
| \___/ |
\_______/
llm -m chutes/Qwen/Qwen3-Coder-480B-A35B-Instruct-FP8 \
"An ASCII of spongebob"
Here's an ASCII art of SpongeBob SquarePants:
.--..--..--..--..--..--.
.' \ (`._ (_) _ \
.' | '._) (_) |
\ _.')\ .----..--.' /
|(_.' | / .-\-. \---.
\ 0| | ( O| O) | |
| _ | .--.____.'._.-. |
\ (_) | o -` .-` |
| \ |`-._ _ _ _ _\ /
\ | | `. |_||_| |
| o | \_ \ | -. .-.
|.-. \ `--..-' O | `.`-' .'
_.' .' | `-.-' /-.__ ' .-'
.' `-.` '.|='=.='=.='=.='=|._/_ `-'.'
`-._ `. |________/\_____| `-.'
.' ).| '=' '='\/ '=' |
`._.` '---------------'
//___\ //___\
|| ||
||_.-. ||_.-.
(_.--__) (_.--__)
Meta: I generated a few dozen spongebobs last night on the same model and NONE where as good as this. Most started well but collapsed into decoherence at the end - missing the legs off. Then this morning the very same prompt to the same model API produced a perfect bob on the first attempt. Can utilization affect response quality, if all else remains constant? Or was it just random luck?Edit: Ok, the very next attempt, a few minutes later, failed, so I guess it is just random, and you have about a 1 in 10 chance of getting a perfect spongebob from qwen3-coder, and ~0 chance with qwen3-next.
Humans do it too. I have given up on my country's non-local information sources, because I could recognize original sources that are being deliberately omitted. There's a satiric webpage that is basically a reddit scrape. Most of users don't notice and those who do, don't seem to care.
llm -m chutes/Qwen/Qwen3-Coder-480B-A35B-Instruct-FP8 \
"An ASCII of spongebob"
Here's an ASCII art of SpongeBob SquarePants:
```
.--..--..--..--..--..--.
.' \ (`._ (_) _ \
.' | '._) (_) |
\ _.')\ .----..--. /
|(_.' | / .-\-. \
\ 0| | ( O| O) |
| _ | .--.____.'._.-.
/.' ) | (_.' .-'"`-. _.-._.-.--.-.
/ .''. | .' `-. .-'-. .-'"`-.`-._)
.'.' | | | | | | | | | |
.'.' | | | | | | | | | |
.'.' | | | | | | | | | |
.'.' | | | | | | | | | |
.'.' | | | | | | | | | |
.'.' | | | | | | | | | |
```And that is also exactly how we want them not to work: we want them to be able to solve new problems. (Because Pandora's box is open, and they are not sold as a flexible query machine.)
"Where was Napoleon born": easy. "How to resolve the conflict effectively": hard. Solved problems are interesting to students. Professionals have to deal with non trivial ones.
speak for yourself, I like solving problems and I'd like to retire before physical labor becomes the only way to support yourself
> they are not sold as a flexible query machine
yeah, SamA is a big fucking liar
Meanwhile, there is no turning back and as the mockery of intelligence was invented, the Real Thing must be urgently found.
Edit: I have just read the title "Amateurish plan exposed failing diplomacy". The giants' list includes McNamara, Kissinger, Brzezinski: if some say that their efforts have not been sufficient - and failures are very costly -, what do we need?
The larger model already has it in the training corpus so it's not particularly a good measure though. I'd much rather see the capabilities of a model in trying to represent in ascii something that it's unlikely to have in it's training.
Maybe a pelican riding a bike as ascii for both?
Typically less than 1% of training data is memorized.
A scuffed but fully original ASCII SpongeBob is usually more valuable than a perfect recall of an existing one.
One major issue with highly sparse MoE is that it appears to advance memorization more than it advances generalization. Which might be what we're seeing here.
.--..--..--..--..--..--.
.' \ (`._ (_) _ \
.' | '._) (_) |
\ _.')\ .----..---. /
|(_.' | / .-\-. \ |
\ 0| | ( O| O) | o|
| _ | .--.____.'._.-. |
\ (_) | o -` .-` |
| \ |`-._ _ _ _ _\ /
\ | | `. |_||_| |
| o | \_ \ | -. .-.
|.-. \ `--..-' O | `.`-' .'
_.' .' | `-.-' /-.__ ' .-'
.' `-.` '.|='=.='=.='=.='=|._/_ `-'.'
`-._ `. |________/\_____| `-.'
.' ).| '=' '='\/ '=' |
`._.` '---------------'
//___\ //___\
|| ||
||_.-. ||_.-.
(_.--__) (_.--__)
Enjoy your SpongeBob ASCII!And unless their terminal details are included in the context, they'll just have to guess.
In fact everything from ' ' to ' '79 all have a single token assigned to them on the OpenAI GPT4 tokenizer. Sometimes ' 'x + '\n' is also assigned a single token.
You might ask why they do this but its to make it so programming work better by reducing token counts. All whitespace before the code gets jammed into a single token and entire empty lines also get turned into a single token.
There are actually lots of interesting hand crafted token features added which don't get discussed much.
With Qwen3's sparse-MoE, though, the path to that memory is noisier: two extra stochastic draws (a) which expert(s) fire, (b) which token gets sampled from them. Add the new gated-attention and multi-token heads and you've got a pipeline where a single routing flake or a dud expert can break vertical alignment halfway down the picture.
Anyway, I think qwen3-coder was uniquely trained on this - so it's not a fair comparison. Here are some other qwen3 models:
Model: chutes/Qwen/Qwen3-235B-A22B
/~\
( * * )
( o o o )
\ - /
\ /\ /
\ /
\/
/|||\
/|||||\
/||||||||\
( o o o )
\ W /
\___/
Model: chutes/Qwen/Qwen3-235B-A22B-Instruct-2507 /\_/\
( o.o )
> ^ <
/ \
| |
| |
\ /
'-'-'
Model: chutes/Qwen/Qwen3-235B-A22B-Thinking-2507 .-----------.
| [] [] |
| |
| __ __ |
| | || | |
| |__||__| |
| |
'-----------'
Model: chutes/Qwen/Qwen3-Next-80B-A3B-Instruct __
/ \
/ \
/ \
/ \
/__________\
| o o |
| __ |
| \____/ |
| |
| ________ |
| \ / |
| \____/ |
| |
|____________|
___________
/ \
/ \
| _______ |
| | | |
| | ___ | |
| | | | | |
| | |___| | |
| |_______| |
| |
|_______________|
Model: chutes/Qwen/Qwen3-Next-80B-A3B-Thinking .-.
/ \
| o o|
| > |
| ---|
\___/
Model: chutes/Qwen/Qwen3-30B-A3B-Instruct-2507 _________________________
/ \
| _ _ _ _ |
| / \ / \ / \ / \ |
| | | | | | | | | |
| \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ |
| |
| _ _ _ _ |
| / \ / \ / \ / \ |
| | | | | | | | | |
| \_/ \_/ \_/ \_/ |
| |
| SpongeBob SquarePants |
|_________________________|Check out this great exercise - https://open.substack.com/pub/outsidetext/p/how-does-a-blind...
Llama 4's release in 2025 is (deservedly) panned, but Llama 3.1 405b does not deserve that slander.
https://artificialanalysis.ai/#frontier-language-model-intel...
Do not compare 2024 models to the current cutting edge. At the time, Llama 3.1 405b was the very first open source (open weights) model to come close to the closed source cutting edge. It was very very close in performance to GPT-4o and Claude 3.5 Sonnet.
In essence, it was Deepseek R1 before Deepseek R1.
> dense
> 405B model
Llama4 does not match any of these details. Maybe the commenter thinks their comment is about Llama4 (I don't see a reason to believe so) but readers familiar with these details know they are referring to Llama3.1.
Out of context, but i honestly hate how HN let itself get so far behind the times that this is the sort of inane commentary we get on AI.
I use ollama every day for spam filtering: gemma3:27b works great, but I use gpt-oss:20b on a daily basis because it's so much faster and comparable in performance.
It's amazingly accurate.
The interesting thing is that after experimentation I found that it's best if the prompt doesn't describe what is spam. The LLMs are somewhat "intelligent", so the prompt now describes me — who I am, what I do, my interests, etc. It's much more effective and generalizes better to fight new kinds of spam.
And a nice side observation is that this kind of system requires no training (so I no longer collect samples of spam) and can't be gamed, because it describes me instead of describing specific kinds of spam.
I have to write it up in a blog post.
I just tried Qwen3-Next-80B-A3B on Qwen chat, and it's fast! The quality seem to match Qwen3-235B-A22B. Quite impressive how they achieved this. Can't wait for the benchmarks at Artificial analysis
According to Qwen Chat, Qwen3-Next has the following limits:
Maximum context length: 262,144 tokens
Max summary generation length: 32,768 tokens
This is 2x higher on context length and 4x higher on summary generation compared to Qwen3-235B-A22B, damn
> Qwen3-Next [...] excels in ultra-long-context understanding and complex tasks
Even though their new hybrid architecture is fascinating, I think I'll continue to stick with Qwen2.5-Turbo because it's one of the few models that supports 1M tokens in context length. My use case is uploading large pdfs and ask questions across chapters
I still see the model becoming more intoxicated as turn count gets high.
please don't add any comments in the code unless explicitly asked to, including the ones that state what you changed. do not modify/remove any existing comments as long as they are valid. also output the full files that are changed (not the untouched ones), and no placeholders like "no change here" etc. do not output the xml parts in the output.xml file. focus on the individual files. before and after outputting code, write which file it would be and the path (not as a comment in the code but instead, before and after outputting code).
Attached is a 400k token xml file, being the output of:
https://pastebin.com/raw/SH6JHteg
Main prompt is a general description of the feature needed and PDF exports from figma.
All done for free in aistudio and I consistently get better results than the people using claude code.
I do sometimes chop up the PDF into smaller pdfs with their own individual chapters
> Qwen3-Next natively supports context lengths of up to 262,144 tokens. For conversations where the total length (including both input and output) significantly exceeds this limit, we recommend using RoPE scaling techniques to handle long texts effectively. We have validated the model's performance on context lengths of up to 1 million tokens using the YaRN method.
Source: https://huggingface.co/Qwen/Qwen3-Next-80B-A3B-Instruct#proc...
I read the article, but as I said Qwen chat only provides up to 262k tokens in context length, so I'll stick with Qwen2.5 Turbo which supports 1M tokens.
I am not in a position where I can self-host yet
Plus penetration is already very high in the areas where they are objectively useful: programming, customer care etc. I just don't see where the 100-1000x demand comes from to offset this. Would be happy to hear other views.
Besides, this would only apply for very few use cases. For a lot of basic customer care work, programming, quick research, I would say LLMs are already quite good without running it 100X.
Whatever is good enough now, can be much better for the same cost (time, computation, actual cost). People will always choose better over worse.
The compute/intelligence curve is not a straight line. It's probably more a curve that saturates, at like 70% of human intelligence. More compute still means more intelligence. But you'll never reach 100% human intelligence. It saturates way below that.
Thinking it will go beyond human limits is just wishful thinking at this point. There is no reason to believe it.
It's amazing how far and how short we've come with software architectures.
And it appears like it's thinking about it! /s
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