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  3. /Nursing excluded as 'professional' degree by Department of Education
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  3. /Nursing excluded as 'professional' degree by Department of Education
Nov 20, 2025 at 8:00 PM EST

Nursing excluded as 'professional' degree by Department of Education

ourmandave
128 points
88 comments

Mood

controversial

Sentiment

negative

Category

news

Key topics

Nursing

Education Policy

Professional Degrees

Discussion Activity

Very active discussion

First comment

7m

Peak period

80

Day 1

Avg / period

40.5

Comment distribution81 data points
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Based on 81 loaded comments

Key moments

  1. 01Story posted

    Nov 20, 2025 at 8:00 PM EST

    3d ago

    Step 01
  2. 02First comment

    Nov 20, 2025 at 8:07 PM EST

    7m after posting

    Step 02
  3. 03Peak activity

    80 comments in Day 1

    Hottest window of the conversation

    Step 03
  4. 04Latest activity

    Nov 23, 2025 at 2:48 PM EST

    12h ago

    Step 04

Generating AI Summary...

Analyzing up to 500 comments to identify key contributors and discussion patterns

Discussion (88 comments)
Showing 81 comments of 88
blinded
3d ago
3 replies
Regressive. Divinity on the list, but not nursing and advance nursing degrees.
kace91
3d ago
3 replies
chiropractors also have an origin in pseudoscience, they have sort of evolved into scientific studies in many ways but part of the quackery remains.
wahnfrieden
3d ago
2 replies
Chiropractic was taught to its founder by a ghost
jeffbee
3d ago
1 reply
So you're saying it belongs under divinity?
gscott
3d ago
The ghost wasn't holy
drivebyhooting
3d ago
1 reply
That’s funny.

But when Ramanujan says 1 + 2 + 3 + … = -1/12 because god told him we accept that as a reasonable explanation.

davorak
3d ago
>But when Ramanujan says 1 + 2 + 3 + … = -1/12 because god told him we accept that as a reasonable explanation.

What community accepts that as reasonable explanation?

loeg
3d ago
1 reply
In what way are they anything but quacks?
cjbgkagh
3d ago
1 reply
They have more scope to experiment, in my case it was a way for me to access PRP injections before wider adoption. They are paid rather orthography to treatment, they can treat other things while also giving you regular spinal adjustments - similar to the idea that researchers should be paid to teach as paying them to research will pollute the research. We need a way to continue paying dentists so they can stop finding ‘soft spots’ that don’t exist.

I dislike the quackery but traditional science isn’t free from it either. I wish everyone was rational, evidence based and disinterested (as in not having a particular interest on biasing an outcome). But the world we live in is far from that. Consider the percentage of ‘normal’ medical doctors in Germany who believe in homeopathy. A large part of that is due to the terrain school of thought in medicine which lost out to germ theory. An artifact of history rather than rational people and rational study. I’m still looking for a better way the phrase it; but it seems to me that the belief in the belief of science far exceeds the actual belief in science.

If doctors / medical researchers really were so good at research they wouldn’t have taken so long to rediscover the ancient practice of prolotherapy.

loeg
3d ago
1 reply
> in my case it was a way for me to access PRP injections before wider adoption

So they are not only quacks, but also grifters? The evidence for PRP is basically non-existent. It doesn't hold up in RCTs: https://www.jwatch.org/na54355/2021/12/27/evidence-against-p...

(To be fair, chiros are not unique in grifting PRP -- I've seen traditional doctors selling it too.)

> Consider the percentage of ‘normal’ medical doctors in Germany who believe in homeopathy.

I hadn't heard of this, but, yeah, that's also quackery. Wild. 32% of German GPs report "using" homeopathy once a week. The US medical system may have some problems, but at least believing in homeopathy isn't one of them.

cjbgkagh
3d ago
I had a limp from an injury that persisted for 8 years before PRP cleared it up in 3 months. I would have gotten the French sucrose injections earlier but France was a far way off and I couldn’t afford it at the time. I put it in the bucket of prolotherapy not in the bucket of stem cells and on that basis it absolutely works. Being a substance derived from the patient allows it to skip over regulatory hurdles, as mentioned I would have taken sucrose but that wasn’t on offer. The evidence for prolotherapy working is extensive, far exceeding a single study.
drivebyhooting
3d ago
2 replies
Meanwhile when seeking treatment for pain with western medicine:

* first see a GP, no real diagnosis.

* get an ultrasound - everyone already knows it won’t show anything of use but insurance companies require this escalation path

* get an xray - same as above

* maybe if you insist get an MRI.

* regardless the treatment is the same: go to a PT’s office.

the_af
3d ago
That's an artifact of the health system (as an economic/insurance system), not of medicine itself. Chiropractors are different, the problem with them isn't the bureaucracy of insurance.

Conflating medicine with how health systems work in some countries is a serious error.

yencabulator
3d ago
physical therapist != chiropractor
kragen
3d ago
6 replies
The professions are traditionally divinity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinity_(academic_discipline)), medicine, and law, so I don't see how you could remove divinity from the list. When you argue for including nursing as a "professional degree", what you're arguing is that it belongs to the category exemplified by those three instances.

Edit: please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profession for the current undestanding of that category.

shermantanktop
3d ago
2 replies
yes, the 13th century POV is very important.
kragen
3d ago
2 replies
Without the 13th-century POV in question, the distinction becomes meaningless.
yibg
3d ago
1 reply
Why? Can we not define what a professional degree is without the historical baggage?
kragen
3d ago
2 replies
You could make up a new category and call it by the same name as the old category, if what you wanted was to confuse people and make clear thinking more difficult. If you want to define a category without historical baggage, I would prefer that you used a different term so that it was clear that you weren't talking about the concept laden with that baggage.
Jensson
3d ago
1 reply
I don't think many associate the term with the historical baggage here, so its you who are confusing others by using it that way rather than the opposite.
kragen
3d ago
1 reply
They may not be consciously aware of it, but that makes them more likely to be influenced by it, not less. Having unexamined opinions generally means having self-contradictory opinions, which makes you easy to manipulate.

Moreover, the Department of Education is clearly using the term in the sense I am describing, about whose further historical development you can read more in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profession.

Jensson
3d ago
1 reply
> Moreover, the Department of Education is clearly using the term in the sense I am describing

But that change will confuse people since it has been a professional degree for a long time now. Using ancient definitions causes confusion, it doesn't resolve it.

kragen
3d ago
I'm talking about divinity, not nursing.
yibg
3d ago
Words evolve in meaning all the time. What's included in "science" now is very different from what was included 500 years ago. Doesn't mean we should create a new term for it each time a new discipline is added.
asddubs
3d ago
2 replies
maybe we should include alchemy in the list then
cpburns2009
3d ago
1 reply
Ever heard of Chemistry?
Jensson
3d ago
Chemistry is not alchemy and astronomy is not astrology and philosophy is not divinity.
jltsiren
3d ago
Alchemy was a subfield of natural philosophy, not a profession. Its European practicioners had typically studied medicine or theology.
RobRivera
3d ago
1 reply
Is this sarcasm?
BigTTYGothGF
3d ago
1 reply
And people say the humanities aren't important....
RobRivera
12h ago
I

Absolutely

Adore your handle

koakuma-chan
3d ago
3 replies
What is divinity?
cpburns2009
3d ago
1 reply
A masters level degree in Christian theology. Traditional Christian denominations require it to be a priest or pastor.
yencabulator
3d ago
Is the US government preferring one religion over others?
kragen
3d ago
Edited into parent.
op00to
3d ago
Fairy tales
Jcampuzano2
3d ago
1 reply
Wtf does tradition have to do with it?

Why the hell does a large portion of this country give a rats ass about tradition, but also larp as caring about progress and effectiveness. These two are logically inconsistent.

If anything we should be removing more traditions than ever.

kragen
3d ago
1 reply
Word meanings are determined purely by tradition. There isn't an objective reality about what words do or don't mean apart from how people use them. If you make up your own definitions for words instead of using the traditional ones, you sacrifice the possibility of communication with people who don't know your definitions. That's glory for you!
the_af
3d ago
Words change meaning and definitions drift all the time. Language isn't static and adapts to modern times.

Besides, this bizarre tangent about tradition ignores that this has some very practical downsides for nurses, it's not just about preserving tradition or whatnot.

sunkeeh
3d ago
1 reply
The problem is the "traditionally" part. What merit does tradition have? None.
kragen
3d ago
2 replies
Of course tradition has no real merit on its own, but studying the same linguistic tradition is what enables two people to communicate by using language. Unless you manage to complete John Wilkins's project, perhaps, and eliminate the arbitrariness of Wilkins's decisions.

However, in this conversation, we are speaking English, whose words owe their meaning entirely to tradition.

Jensson
3d ago
> However, in this conversation, we are speaking English, whose words owe their meaning entirely to tradition.

The meaning of words change over time, so you are wrong, words meaning are not entirely from tradition or else their meaning would not change.

Or if you agree that traditions can change, then what the word meant year 1300 doesn't matter, things has changed since then.

yencabulator
3d ago
And the word "word" used to mean "to speak", as in make a sound. The word "merit" likely meant "to assign". Current day meaning matters a lot more than what something used to be.
api
3d ago
Is nursing not medicine?
caretak3r
3d ago
Divinity. What a crude waste of time.
dragonwriter
3d ago
> Regressive. Divinity on the list, but not nursing and advance nursing degrees.

The list on the site has Theology, not Divinity (which is a bit ironic, because Divinity is traditionally the professional degree and Theology the academic one.)

charcircuit
3d ago
4 replies
Allow people to learn from ChatGPT instead of spending $$$$$$ on a degree. It being so expensive that you require government handouts is a self inflected problem.
searine
3d ago
1 reply
I do not want some working on my body unlicensed and educated by chatgpt.
charcircuit
3d ago
1 reply
I only mentioned degrees. Just because someone passed a class years ago, that doesn't mean they remember everything or are able to put that knowledge into practice.

Scaling licensing is much easier than scaling education via universities which means that price can be made cheap to avoid needing big loans.

ourmandave
3d ago
In my state you have to renew your nursing license every 2 years with continuing education.
antinomicus
3d ago
2 replies
This has to be a troll. I refuse to believe anyone thinks like this.
kace91
3d ago
1 reply
I take it you haven’t experienced a LinkedIn feed?
xboxnolifes
3d ago
I've assumed all LinkedIn posts are advanced, in-group trolling.
gsf_emergency_6
3d ago
To be fair, this sentiment is tolerable with regards to graduate programs in divinity, which for some reason _is_ included..
hsuduebc2
3d ago
Yea, I would want very much to be treated on no existing illnesses on non existing organs.
add-sub-mul-div
3d ago
Too many people in this community earnestly think this way, which makes this statement alone ineffective as parody. Try adding more of a flourish.
softwaredoug
3d ago
1 reply
Seems fairly regressive to health care costs for everyone.
bgm1975
3d ago
…so tracks for America.
stackskipton
3d ago
1 reply
Just to note, this is probably American Medical Association lobby change since it impacts graduate nurse programs so not RNs but Physician Assistants/Nurse Practitioners and like.
gsf_emergency_6
3d ago
Graduate programs in some domains tend to be a relatively affordable way to insure against opportunity risks (nursing, not divinity)

The context is some interpretations of Baumol effect, as discussed here for the very parallel case of childcare

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45956525

micromacrofoot
3d ago
1 reply
there's been nursing shortage for my whole life, what the hell is wrong with people? why can't we take care of each other
PLenz
3d ago
1 reply
Because if there us a nursing shortage there is opportunity to 'supplement' existing nurses with AI and thus transfer more wealth to the very richest among us
Dusseldorf
3d ago
This doesn't make much sense to me. As the previous commenter mentioned, this shortage has been ongoing for decades, it's certainly not new in the last two years. Additionally, nursing is one of the jobs least replaceable by AI.

There's a nursing shortage because the work is brutal, under appreciated, and under compensated aside from travel nursing gigs, for those who can maintain that sort of lifestyle. Nurses are a cost center, so management is constantly running floors understaffed. It's to the point that they receive bonuses for running the floor as thin as possible, despite the worsening of patient outcomes and nurses' sanity.

Don't get me wrong, there are some good gigs for sure, but there are lots of terrible ones.

jmclnx
3d ago
1 reply
Anything to give the for profit medical and insurance industry an excuse to cut nurse's wages. So transparent.
jallonclone
3d ago
2 replies
As I've explained to my NP colleagues (ones that have already completed school), this actually helps them (the impending oversupply threatens NP wages, as some of them are already having trouble finding the job they want since the 45 different APP degree offerings create an unrestricted supply). And while this might discourage some people from entering nursing, that will again only decrease the supply, which will increase the wages since you cannot replace nurses. But that would be a bad thing, as hospitals are already in a crunch trying to find nurses and pay them fairly (a large and different discussion).

On the physician side, there's definitely big changes coming, and I'm banking on a move to up-front APPs and a few remote physicians overseeing things. But I'm actually also seeing a number of entities that hired a bunch of APPs and are now moving back to physicians only and saving money doing do (think urgent care, ED, inpatient), though some specialties work very efficiently with a primary APP or co-management model, particularly the procedural ones.

deepsun
3d ago
1 reply
> impending oversupply

Why? As you said, hospitals have a hard time finding nurses (undersupply), so more nurses would be better for patients and hospitals. An influx of more nurses could ease the undersupply, but I don't see why it would necessary overcome it completely and even lead to the impeding oversupply.

jallonclone
3d ago
I'm talking about an oversupply of APPs (most NPs and related degrees), not nurses. Nurses are currently in short supply (hence the travel nurse phenomenon where some of them are paid more than physicians).
le-mark
3d ago
Let me help with that APP: The acronym APP in the context of a nurse practitioner stands for Advanced Practice Provider
pfannkuchen
3d ago
1 reply
It seems like there has probably been a lot of scope creep in the nursing role due to the artificially induced doctor shortage. Wonder if the de jure/de facto gap there plays a role in this decision and how it’s perceived.
freakingcrap
3d ago
A nurse anesthetist median income in the U.S. is 223210 USD. They administer medicine throughout surgery, e.g. brain surgery, open heart surgery, etc.

They make more than I do with over 25 years as a software engineer. If that’s not professional, what is?

wyldberry
3d ago
1 reply
This applying to graduate degrees really does seem like the result of AMA lobbying to keep Nurse Practitioner numbers down. It is state and program dependent, but in some states NPs have prescribing authority, which cuts into the domain of MD/DO practice in the US. There are of course merits to the argument about NP training vs MD/DO training in Pharmacology, but overall this limits patient access in America to prescribed medicine.

Congress, at the behest of AMA lobbying, had kept the number of Medicare funded residency slots capped at the same number since 1997 until the Consolidated Appropriations Act of 2021 which added 1000 new residence slots[0]. Starting in FY 2023 (October 1 2022) no more than 200 new positions would be added each FY meaning the full 1000 could be created no sooner than FY 2028 (October 1 2027). Given the medical school timeline of 7-10 years training (school, residency, fellowship) we won't see any meaningful impact from that until the mid 2030s.

The US already has a much lower physician to patient ratio than Nordic countries (as a comparison between wealthy, western countries). The us has 2.97 active physicians per 1000 population, of which 2.52 are actual direct patient care physicians[2]. For comparison Sweden is ~5 per 1,000, Norway 4.5 per 1,000, Denmark 4.45 per 1,000, and Finland at 3.8 per 1000. Extra Bonus (Russian Federation reports 4.0 per 1,000)[3]. Note these numbers are as of 2020.

In America, most people interface with doctors in order to get tests run and medicine prescribed. Reducing the incentive for RNs to move into NP by removing it's professional degree status will likely lower the amount of prescribing individuals a patient can interface with, increasing bottleneck and time to care.

[0] - https://www.sgu.edu/news-and-events/new-residency-slots-appr... [1] - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8370355/ [2] - https://www.aamc.org/data-reports/data/2023-key-findings-and... [3] - https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-the-most-...

le-mark
3d ago
1 reply
I haven’t seen a MD in years. I’ve only seen nurse practitioners, at least 5 years now. Health care in the US is deadly, expensive joke. But Fox and friends tell us how great it is compared to socialist countries! Yay!
wyldberry
3d ago
1 reply
My current working theory is that US systems are in general great, if you're smart and educated enough to not get scammed. There's a high level of knowledge you need to just exist in society without being preyed upon by some entity.

Unfortunately, healthcare is probably the most glaring example of this. It's already K-shaped based on the insurance you have (or don't have). In addition, most americans just aren't educated enough about their own bodies and medicine to accurately convey their problems to their care team, and that's before how likely they are to believe you.

I have a great PPO plan and spend a large amount of time each year researching care for longevity and curating a care team, or cash-only practices for things. If i lost that, then i'd be hosed. I can't imagine how people on HMO or medicare plans work.

NPs fulfil a very useful niche, even if that niche is "you tested positive for strep, here's your antibiotics" keeping physcians and PAs able to care on more severe persons.

garciasn
3d ago
It depends on where you live. In a metro area, the care is fine. However, if you live in a rural area, the number of MDs available are much lower.

I had to take my daughter to the ER at our lake home. There were NO doctors nor NPs available; we were helped by an LPN and later an RN they called in from the town. The RN had to call in a DNP who had to drive in 25 minutes to care for her once it was determined the LPN > RN couldn’t do it.

If we had needed an MD, they would have sent us 30 mins away to another ER.

Fucking ridiculous. I’ll just drive to the other ER directly in the future.

boomboomsubban
3d ago
1 reply
Why is there medicine and then like 8 kinds of medicine? Does this mean something like anesthesiology is also not 'professional?' Or why is podiatry singled out but not the others?
jltsiren
3d ago
They are different degrees based on different curricula. Anesthesiology is a specialization you can choose after finishing MD in "generic" medicine.
supportengineer
3d ago
I heard they are getting rid of the Department of Education anyway.
sunkeeh
3d ago
Excluding nurse practitioners & physical therapists but including osteopaths, theologian & chiropractics is insane.
gnarlouse
3d ago
Class warfare
bparsons
3d ago
Incredible things happening in America these days.
Wistar
3d ago
Good grief.

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