Michael Burry A.k.a. "big Short",discloses $1.1b Bet Against Nvidia&palantir
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Michael Burry, known for 'The Big Short', has disclosed a $1.1B bet against Nvidia and Palantir, sparking debate among HN users about the implications and validity of his move.
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https://edition.cnn.com/2023/08/15/investing/michael-burry-s...
>Traders following the investments disclosed by Scion’s over the last 3 years (between May of 2020 and May 2023) would have made annualized returns of 56% according to an analysis by Sure Dividend
Seems like Scion Capital could have just disclosed winning trades, that they may or may not have made?
As far as I can see, shorting Thiel is shorting Israel at the moment. Don't do it while Trump is in Cabinet and pressuring Tel Aviv to pardon Bibi.
Normal people are opposed to those violent acts and may even get angry about them.
But the same people tend to completely ignore or outright support Hamas doing the exact same thing.
You're literally losing huge swathes of the American Christian Right, as we speak. Those guys don't care about Hamas or Palestine or the occupied West Bank.
You need to wake up! I'm trying to help you.
Availability heuristic [1].
Flat earthers and folks deep in their small-country national politics do the same thing, overestimating the causal weight of the thing they’re obsessing about to any effect.
The useful takeaway is to recognize when you do it in smaller doses. What’s the first explanation you tend to have a hunch for explaining phenomena which are too diverse to be reasonably explained by a single factor.
NVDA on the other hand ...
What are you going to really do about something that posts 40B+ in revenue every quarter? Okay, you can short it I suppose. You'd have to time it with the expected drop off in AI compute spend, which means if you have a history of being early (which Burry does), you will lose.
I've googled "becky with the good hair" [1] and I still have no idea what that sentence means.
I split Becky into two: IBM is Vanilla Becky. Palantir is Becky with the good hair. But don't get it twisted, they are both Becky. Don't fall for Becky.
PS. Burry infamously made several more bets after the "big short", bets that misfired. That is, his record is far from being 100% right.
General handwavy statements like "there's a bubble" aren't worth paying attention to. Ones with specific timelines attached to it (like the one above, or the article we're commenting on), are worth listening to a bit more, but unless they have the funds to back it up (like Michael Burry has put down here), it's still hot air.
I’m not sure what timeline to place on that but there has to be a floor for how bad it can get for the regular man.
Shit is just expensive. Young people can’t buy houses, good jobs are drying up, and inflation isn’t stopping.
I don't know what the disconnect is with that chart and people's observations. Is that chart controlling for number of incomes and hours worked? If a household income increases by 20% because the members are working a combined 80% more hours that's not great. Category differences in inflation might be another factor. Sure TVs and other niceties are a lot cheaper, but essentials like housing and medical care eat up a huge portion of most budgets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_consumption_expenditu...
The disconnect is that CPI consistently significantly underestimates inflation as experienced by real people.
You may be thinking of Shadowstats, which is run by a crank who just takes the official numbers and adds a number he made up to them.
I don't know why cranks always think inflation is secretly higher. Deflation is a lot worse than inflation, so if you're a doomer, believing in deflation would be more effective.
The problem is that the error integrates over time, which IMHO is why graphs like that seem to suggest our standard of living is higher than ever... when a conversation with anyone at a local bus stop will tell you the exact opposite.
I don't think a guy at a bus stop represents the median household well. I'd rather have https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/cps.html.
(Edit-misspelled Fed)
In practice, household sizes have gone down over time as more people live on their own, which means the income graph is lower than it otherwise would be.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=cWvT
As for dual income families, they're mostly a good thing that happens when women can afford to pay for childcare. That is, that book The Two-Income Trap was mostly false. This is part of the topic of Claudia Goldin's economics Nobel, the other part being that the gender wage gap is caused by motherhood interrupting women's careers.
https://www.nobelprize.org/uploads/2023/12/goldin-lecture-sl...
Also, most US households are homeowners, which means housing prices going up increases their (imputed) income.
> Is that chart controlling for number of incomes and hours worked?
Why should it? It's bad practice to control for random things - that gets you collider bias.
But see:
Is there someone with a better record then?
It actually appears that the alternative harms aren't as bad; that is, recessions aren't caused by prior expansions and we don't get one by "deserving" them.
https://eml.berkeley.edu/~enakamura/papers/plucking.pdf
Hyperinflation is of course still not good, and it's hard to avoid a recession caused by a natural disaster or something.
Point is, for a 100% positive case rate, I have to tolerate a 22% false positive rate. What exactly is the complaint here? Was this line of logic meant to make people who make these predictions look stupid or foolish somehow? To me, it mostly fails to.
Historically I think the reality has been the opposite of that, economists have been extremely reluctant to make predictions of an oncoming recession. This was certainly true during the great recession when economists were denying that a recession was coming even after one had actually started. That is to say, economists could not even predict the present.
There are a few economists who are predictably gloomy ("permabears", I suppose Nouriel Roubini would qualify) and I guess now there is political pressure to predict a recession anytime the other political party is in power, but from my perspective, if mainstream economists are predicting a recession, that likely means the recession is almost over.
To put another way, there's a lot of "potential energy" being built up in the markets right now. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll pop like a bubble - but there's really no precedent for them to continue rising.
If you've flipped heads three times in a row, you're right that I would look foolish saying the next one can't be heads. But at the same time you cannot keep flipping heads forever.
By close though the market they may well all end higher. We seem to live in a meme economy.
The powers that be have too much invested in the market continuing to move up, you are basically betting that Trump, a bunch of billionaires and the FED are going to let the market crash to curb inflation and income inequality. That feels like a bad bet to me.
By their very nature the markets can overwhelm any desire to "[not] let the market crash]"
Especially when the person in the White House is scared about losing the midterms.
By now is not the AI market beyond any sensible definition of "first order"?
What can overwhelm them is if those effects cascade and compound into second-order effects, typically multiplied in magnitude.
That's essentially what the fuck-up in 2008 was. The government let Bear Stearns fail because it could handle the effects. What it couldn't handle (or at least, was barely able to) were the second order effects of credit tightening, mortgage derivative repricing, counterparty trust loss, etc. etc.
The government could absolutely prop up the AI bubble, possibly indefinitely. What it can't do is cover second order fallout, if it turns out a lot of risky money was somehow tied into the bubble.
The stock market isn't that important (though Trump does care about it). It's the bond market that everyone pays attention to when it stops working.
In a sense, stock market crashes are good for young people because you can buy stocks cheaper. In practice this isn't true because too many people are in debt and you get a balance sheet recession.
With that said, Burry is often credited for "Calling 18 of the past 2 recessions". Even a broken clock....
If you are having to ask an LLM how to do it, I strongly suggest NOT starting with shorting.
Ask about Put options, which is what Burry is doing here — not even Burry is shorting for this situation.
I'm no expert trader, but the potential losses for shorting are unlimited. You borrow X shares of a stock, and will have to repay your loan in that stock, whatever it costs. If the trade goes against you, you will get a margin call and will need to (re-)fill your account with whatever funds are necessary to pay that amount, or all your other holdings and that position will get sold automatically at whatever that loss amount is. Situations called a "Short Squeeze" arise not infrequently, and even though they are temporary, they can cause a stock price to skyrocket, specifically because so many people are shorting it, and everyone needs to buy to fill their short positions & margin calls. The fact that the price soon falls again helps you not one bit. Plus, the maximum profit is limited to the value of the short. E.g., you short the stock at $100/share, if the company goes bankrupt, you can repay the shares for $zero, making $100/share; but you could lose $1000/share if it goes up 10x.
In contrast, purchasing Put options, the right to sell the stock at a certain price, limits your loss to the cost of the Put options — if your idea turns out to be no good, it just fails and expires worthless.
Here's some MUCH better information:
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/06/sellingoptions.a...
is my understanding right?
I make a PUT option on a stock for a price. This price is usually lower than the current market price of the stock.
1.When I do that, the premium amount is to be paid by me when i make the PUT option or I get paid while making the PUT option.
2. Do I have to pay upfront money before hand, while making the PUT option?
3. Is there a deadline for my PUT option. For example, if it doesn't happen, what form of loss do I experience?
A put option represents a belief that the price will fall, which makes "right to sell the stock" valuable. Similarly, a call option represents a belief that the price will rise. Both can be bought and sold; you do not "make" them but rather trade in them, just as you would in stock. But the relationship between the stock price and the result from an option is not linear; selling a put and buying a call are both nominally "long" the stock, but are not equivalent.[0]
When you buy an option, you are always immediately out for the cost of the option itself (the "premium"). This is separate from the strike price. It's the market's assessment of how much your "right to sell later" is worth, in itself. By doing this, you are speculating that you can recover that money later, based on how the stock performs. (Depending on your strategy, this can involve buying or short-selling the "underlying" stock, as well as other options.)
So if you buy a put, you pay money (the premium) up front, and you potentially just lose that money completely. Sane options strategies take your entire portfolio into account, and use options to hedge the risk profile of the rest of the profile (rather than trying to use the rest of the profile to justify taking on risk using options).
----
Some details, and further exploration.
Options represent essentially zero-sum speculation on top of the actual price movement. For example, holding everything else constant, a call option increases in value as the price of the underlying increases (the right to buy stock at a fixed price becomes worth more, when the stock is worth more). When a company does well, everyone who holds the actual stock shares in the company's good fortune; but the profit of call holders comes at the expense of those who sold (or "wrote") those calls.
The option is priced according to market expectations of risk (how likely is it that the stock's price will fall below the chosen mark?), and according to duration (the longer you reserve the right to exercise the option, the more likely it is that you'll get a profitable opportunity; therefore, the more valuable and thus expensive the option is). For long-term options (especially now that interest rates are non-trivial) there's a second meaningful duration factor: buying an option comes with the opportunity cost of not holding cash (or treasury bonds) for that period, and that also has to be priced in.
"American" options give you the right to exercise at any point before the deadline; "European" options only allow you to exercise at the deadline. This is also priced in; having more flexibility is worth more.
If you have chosen well, the market price for the stock goes down by a lot. This allows you to profit when you exercise the option.
If you have chosen poorly, you never get the opportunity to profit. Your options "expire worthless"; an option to sell at a point that has already passed has no value. You have been left holding the bag.
In between, you might exercise in a way that recovers only part of the premium you paid.
Much riskier is to sell options against securities you don't hold. (You will likely be legally barred from attempting this at all, and even wealthy experienced traders will be required to hold some percentage of the security value that their options represent.) You are hoping that the option expires worthless, so that you simply claim its value uninhibited. If it doesn't, you may be "assigned" i.e. legally on the hook for someone else's exercise of the option. If you sold a put, you may be forced to pay an inflated price for a stock that crashed. If you sold a call, you may be forced to acquire stock in order to sell it at a discount in order to fulfill your option. The potential loss for selling a put typically far exceeds the maximum potential profit; the potential loss for selling a naked call is unlimited (as we suppose the stock's value can go to infinity).
But if your sale of a call is "covered", or your sale of a put is "cash secured", this means you fully own the security (underlying stock, or liquid assets respectively) corresponding to the option. The cash secured put still incurs the risk of wiping out your entire cash supply, much as if you'd simply bought 100 shares directly, and it puts a hard limit on your upside. But it lets you profit from the stock without actually holding it.
Given sensibly chosen strike prices, covered calls actually end up with a similar risk/benefit profile. As the stock goes to zero, all you end up with is the option premium, because you were holding the stock. If the stock does well, your net profit is limited to the option premium, because the profit from holding the stock cancels out the liability of the option. (Equivalently: you are required to sell the stock at the strike price, but you already have that stock; no matter how high the underlying stock value gets, you can only claim the strike price.)
[0]: Doing both gives risk exposure roughly equivalent to holding the stock, without actually buying it. This is called a "synthetic long". As you can imagine, that is effectively unlimited leverage in itself, and if you attempt it you will be required to hold a significant amount of cash to limit your leverage, and jump through a lot of regulatory hoops to prove both your competence and solvency. I didn't mention this at the start, because you need the details to understand it.
If you sell a PUT, your exposure is much greater; you're the one who has to pay up if the option ends up in the money.
The deadline is the date of the option.
If you do lose money, it's a capital loss (tax benefit) and vice versa for capital gains.
You either sell the stock short or buy puts.
A downward move could also see volatility go up significantly and increase the value of the options you are short, especially longer dated options.
If everyone followed your advice no one would ever do anything, as we all begin somewhere, something that should OK.
Of course, don't do million dollar trades when you begin, but we shouldn't push back on people wanting to learn, feels very backwards compared to hacker ethos.
That, and because snarky answers get more imaginary internet points than helpful ones.
Since when is this a problem? For gods sake, let people fuck up and harm themselves if they're stupid enough to take the risks, or not.
I think it's fine to say "Remember, this is risky because of A, B and C, but here's how to do it anyways..." but straight up "If you have to ask, you shouldn't" seems so backwards and almost mean, especially when we talk about money which is mostly "easy come, easy go". Let the fool be parted with their money if that's what they want :)
Leverage can be a fearful thing.
Totally! But also keep in mind this :)
https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1570:_Engineer_Sy...
Former options market maker here. Please don’t buy options as a retail investor. (Maybe write to generate income.)
I'm told that covered-call ETFs generally underperform (in addition to being inefficient) and "generating income" is best accomplished by just selling shares as needed.
Options are always overpriced. They're fundamentally an insurance product. You should expect to lose money when buying insurance. If you're hedging, you should expect to lose on your options leg. Same as with any insurance product.
Options are governed by tight mathematical relationships between each other and with their underlyings. These can be atomically arbitraged, i.e. you don't need someone else to believe your thesis to make money. As a retail investor, you are on the other side of a system designed to efficiently price and reprice options to ensure the dealer doesn't lose money.
> I'm told that covered-call ETFs generally underperform (in addition to being inefficient)
I haven't looked into covered-call ETFs, but my prior is strategy ETFs are bullshit even when the underlying strategy may not be.
> "generating income" is best accomplished by just selling shares as needed
Yes. (Or borrowing against them.)
It works as long as you understand you're selling the options below their expected value (EV). It's closer to EV than an option buyer, on average. But the price you get will always represent less reward for risk than my option pricers running on microwave-linked FPGAs a few feet from servers in New Jersey and Chicago can bid and offer.
If that works for you--if the benefits of income or whatever outweigh that theoretical cost--you can do it sensibly. If you're selling puts to enhance your returns, you're probably going to, at the very least, lose your accumulated gains at some point.
So he bought (he's long on the PUTs) 10 000 PUTs on NVDA and 50 000 PUTs on PLTR. I don't know at which expiration dates nor at which strikes.
A PUT option can be either a bet (like in TFA) that an underlying shall go down below a certain price before a certain date of it can be an hedge when you own the stock, believe it could go up some more, but also want to be protected should it crash. Now of course hedging has a cost and it's not cheap: an option is an insurance. Even the terminology is the same: the buyer pays a premium and the seller (i.e. the one selling the insurance) collects that premium.
Now if you want to learn about full-on degenerate gambling, these last years there's been an explosion in "0DTE": options with zero day to expiration. Because they're 0DTE, there's very little "extrinsic" value in these. So it's a "cheap" way to get basically 100x leverage (either short or long).
Here's a small documentary of 5 minutes about 0DTEs:
But the risk profile of options depends on more than date to expiration. Of course the strike prices matter, as well as the rest of your portfolio. The real "degenerate gamblers" are taking that leverage without compensating for it. But for example, holding something with 100x effective leverage can be balanced out by only putting 1% of your portfolio there and keeping the rest in cash. (This will generally be inefficient and there's a high chance you won't do as well as just holding the underlying.)
Note: you pay overnight swap fees or similar for holding a position. "The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."
FWIG you can't actually see what premium was paid on an option unless the buyer chooses to disclose that themselves.
Nor the strike or tenor. (Options are more thinly traded than stocks. This confidentiality is practical.)
They must be referring the the value of the shares the contracts represent?
There is enough bullish momentum that a trade of this size can actually be placed (of course in chunks).
Puts are calls and calls are puts [1]. On a certain level, all options of a given expiry and underlying are shadows of the same object.
Absolutely false.
Options theory typically starts with European non-dividend paying options for simplicity. PCP applies to American-style options on dividend-paying stocks, you just get a solution with pairs of inequalities defining bounds. That leads to similar arbitrage and conversion mechanics with similar implications for market participants.
To make the math easy, let’s assume it’s a PLTR 200 strike put expiring in February 2026. Each put is $20,000 notional so 10,000 puts would be $200M notional.
Feb PLTR 200Ps are trading for $3k or so each, so it would be $30M in premium for $200M notional with an in-the-money put.
If a market maker sells one 200P (52 delta) they are functionally long 52 shares, so they hedge by selling short 52 shares (or selling a call with 52 delta). If he has 10k contracts then the MM that sold the puts would be functionally long 520,000 shares and would need to short that many deltas to hedge.
Avg recent trading volume for PLTR is ~50M shares a day; 10,000 (50 delta) puts is roughly equal to 500,000 shares and be about 1% of a day’s trading volume.
Tl;dr: He’s holding 10k to 50k put contracts, depending on the moneyness and expiration date.
edit: smallmancontrov below pointed out that I wrote 'purchasing puts' was long, when I meant to write 'purchasing calls'
He may be. We may also only be seeing parts of the trade.
Fake news! I am not 5’6” (not that there is anything wrong with that).
And journalists reporting on 13Fs, none more fake.
This risk can be hedged with futures and options.
Short and a call, yes. Short and a future, no. Either way, infinite losses isn’t an unavoidable downside when it comes to shorting. Stock-borrow and margin risks are.
Sometimes you just want simple leverage, which the puts can provide.
Leverage, margin risk and stock-borrow risk. (The last refers to the folks who lent you the shares recalling them inconveniently.)
The relevant Greeks are delta, gamma and vega.
If your bet pays off, the price of the stock will decrease. Delta predicts how your option will increase in value with that; gamma if that relationship will accelerate or buffer. Vega, meanwhile, informs that the price suddenly crashing is volatility, which increases the value of your options.
Succinctly, if you are betting on a crash, options offer advantages. (And if the market, but not your company, gets bailed out, vega could put you middlingly in the black.)
Former options market maker here. We have insufficient data to conclude that.
I also happen to have experience unwinding correlation books after their originators shat the bed. Predicting a crisis is hard. Predicting correlations in a crisis for esoteric assets is almost impossible.
Burry wanted to bet on specific overvalued stocks. Not a general market crash. For that, puts are probably the best tool if the expectation is a sharp correction followed by, in all likelihood, a Trump put.
On what basis do you say this?
Glad to see someone say it. A lot of people have a hypothesis about the market, but fail to do the follow through to see if the market has already priced that in. The real aim should be to see when your model (mental or mathematical) prices things differently than the market.
In this case, it's actually quite reasonable to believe that the market has over priced the risk no matter how "sure" anyone is that these companies are over valued. It's entirely reasonable to pay for an option that you think reflects an unlikely scenario, but you also believe is mispriced notably by the market.
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