Not Hacker News Logo

Not

Hacker

News!

Home
Hiring
Products
Companies
Discussion
Q&A
Users
Not Hacker News Logo

Not

Hacker

News!

AI-observed conversations & context

Daily AI-observed summaries, trends, and audience signals pulled from Hacker News so you can see the conversation before it hits your feed.

LiveBeta

Explore

  • Home
  • Hiring
  • Products
  • Companies
  • Discussion
  • Q&A

Resources

  • Visit Hacker News
  • HN API
  • Modal cronjobs
  • Meta Llama

Briefings

Inbox recaps on the loudest debates & under-the-radar launches.

Connect

© 2025 Not Hacker News! — independent Hacker News companion.

Not affiliated with Hacker News or Y Combinator. We simply enrich the public API with analytics.

Not Hacker News Logo

Not

Hacker

News!

Home
Hiring
Products
Companies
Discussion
Q&A
Users
  1. Home
  2. /Discussion
  3. /Michael Burry a.k.a. "Big Short",discloses $1.1B bet against Nvidia&Palantir
  1. Home
  2. /Discussion
  3. /Michael Burry a.k.a. "Big Short",discloses $1.1B bet against Nvidia&Palantir
Last activity 19 days agoPosted Nov 4, 2025 at 12:44 PM EST

Michael Burry A.k.a. "big Short",discloses $1.1b Bet Against Nvidia&palantir

selim17
195 points
332 comments

Mood

skeptical

Sentiment

mixed

Category

other

Key topics

Stock Market
Short Selling
Nvidia
Palantir
Debate intensity80/100

Michael Burry, known for 'The Big Short', has disclosed a $1.1B bet against Nvidia and Palantir, sparking debate among HN users about the implications and validity of his move.

Snapshot generated from the HN discussion

Discussion Activity

Very active discussion

First comment

11m

Peak period

155

Day 1

Avg / period

40

Comment distribution160 data points
Loading chart...

Based on 160 loaded comments

Key moments

  1. 01Story posted

    Nov 4, 2025 at 12:44 PM EST

    22 days ago

    Step 01
  2. 02First comment

    Nov 4, 2025 at 12:55 PM EST

    11m after posting

    Step 02
  3. 03Peak activity

    155 comments in Day 1

    Hottest window of the conversation

    Step 03
  4. 04Latest activity

    Nov 8, 2025 at 9:10 AM EST

    19 days ago

    Step 04

Generating AI Summary...

Analyzing up to 500 comments to identify key contributors and discussion patterns

Discussion (332 comments)
Showing 160 comments of 332
dh2022
22 days ago
1 reply
Thanks for sharing. Michael Bury also shorted S&P 500 in Sep 2023 and closed his position in Nov 2023 for a nice payoff… he seems to know what he is doing.
bgirard
22 days ago
2 replies
I'm legitimately curious what his overall performance is. Are those just cherry picked trades?
Havoc
22 days ago
1 reply
His wins were quite big so I’d imagine he’s doing really well overall
bgirard
22 days ago
1 reply
Is there anything more concrete than that? Large wins on their own aren't meaningful if they aren't good risk adjusted trades or repeatable. I've made big wins but I don't consider myself a good trader.
zipy124
22 days ago
1 reply
From may 2020 to may 2023 they did 56% annualised. Performance apart from that is unreported, so likely lower or negative.
lotsofpulp
22 days ago
If this is the source, it does not seem like an objective, audited figure:

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/08/15/investing/michael-burry-s...

>Traders following the investments disclosed by Scion’s over the last 3 years (between May of 2020 and May 2023) would have made annualized returns of 56% according to an analysis by Sure Dividend

Seems like Scion Capital could have just disclosed winning trades, that they may or may not have made?

embedding-shape
22 days ago
As far as I can tell, he been doing lots of puts and "winning" maybe 1/8 of the ones I've known about, so pretty hit and miss history so far.
prodigycorp
22 days ago
4 replies
Palantir's valuation is far more egregious than Nvidia's. Palantir is Becky (IBM) with the good hair.
piltdownman
22 days ago
4 replies
You're betting against a middle-east Marshall Plan and AIPAC lobbyists vs. a company that just set up its AI industrial Hub in Europe and has some serious compute-engine hosting cost sticker-shock incoming.

As far as I can see, shorting Thiel is shorting Israel at the moment. Don't do it while Trump is in Cabinet and pressuring Tel Aviv to pardon Bibi.

UltraSane
22 days ago
2 replies
I will never understand what it is about Israel that makes people lose their minds.
pphysch
22 days ago
1 reply
Not minds; lives.
UltraSane
22 days ago
1 reply
Thank you for proving my point
pphysch
22 days ago
1 reply
People are opposed to Israel due to its ongoing mass murder (and rape) campaign.

Normal people are opposed to those violent acts and may even get angry about them.

UltraSane
22 days ago
1 reply
"People are opposed to Israel due to its ongoing mass murder (and rape) campaign."

But the same people tend to completely ignore or outright support Hamas doing the exact same thing.

willis936
22 days ago
1 reply
Because one is actively sponsored by their own nation while the other is not. Their tax dollars are being spent for those atrocities. Or is that not something people should quibble about?
UltraSane
22 days ago
2 replies
Again, thanks for proving my point.
willis936
22 days ago
This isn't the kafka trap you think it is because any reasonable reader would see the glaring false equivalence. Supporting atrocities is upsetting and something we have agency over. How do you not see this?
pphysch
21 days ago
"You're insane for opposing genocide!!" is an unbelievably patronizing, if not outright insane take.

You're literally losing huge swathes of the American Christian Right, as we speak. Those guys don't care about Hamas or Palestine or the occupied West Bank.

You need to wake up! I'm trying to help you.

JumpCrisscross
22 days ago
> never understand what it is about Israel that makes people lose their minds

Availability heuristic [1].

Flat earthers and folks deep in their small-country national politics do the same thing, overestimating the causal weight of the thing they’re obsessing about to any effect.

The useful takeaway is to recognize when you do it in smaller doses. What’s the first explanation you tend to have a hunch for explaining phenomena which are too diverse to be reasonably explained by a single factor.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic

ivape
22 days ago
That was actually my own gut reaction to Palantir's valuation. There is some massive entity that is propping that up, and I can easily see it being a state actor.

NVDA on the other hand ...

What are you going to really do about something that posts 40B+ in revenue every quarter? Okay, you can short it I suppose. You'd have to time it with the expected drop off in AI compute spend, which means if you have a history of being early (which Burry does), you will lose.

devJdeed
22 days ago
SHORT SHORT SHORT. Someone has to pay the price for the G side.
impossiblefork
22 days ago
But how would those guys keep the stock price up?
blitzar
22 days ago
1 reply
> 5 million Palantir shares worth $912 million, and 1 million Nvidia shares worth $187 million

The Nvidia trade is a rounding error compared to Palantir (which looks a bit oversized given it is 1/400th of the entire market cap)

mvdtnz
22 days ago
20% is not a rounding error...
kristianp
22 days ago
1 reply
> Palantir is Becky (IBM) with the good hair

I've googled "becky with the good hair" [1] and I still have no idea what that sentence means.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorry_(Beyonc%C3%A9_song)

prodigycorp
22 days ago
It goes a lot better if you don't think about it. But this is HN, I'll explain the logic.

I split Becky into two: IBM is Vanilla Becky. Palantir is Becky with the good hair. But don't get it twisted, they are both Becky. Don't fall for Becky.

spencerflem
22 days ago
They’re betting the Govt will print a trillion dollars for their buddy.
abcd_f
22 days ago
7 replies
The market will correct before mid-terms next year. This is almost a certainty. By how much and when exactly - now, that's where the shorting profits are.

PS. Burry infamously made several more bets after the "big short", bets that misfired. That is, his record is far from being 100% right.

ambicapter
22 days ago
5 replies
What makes it an (almost) certainty?
fragmede
22 days ago
5 replies
Reminder that economist have predicted 9 of the past 7 recessions.

General handwavy statements like "there's a bubble" aren't worth paying attention to. Ones with specific timelines attached to it (like the one above, or the article we're commenting on), are worth listening to a bit more, but unless they have the funds to back it up (like Michael Burry has put down here), it's still hot air.

darth_avocado
22 days ago
1 reply
Palantir has a market cap of $400B+ and Nvidia is $5T. This short translates to 0.225% and 0.00374%. This mostly translates to a thesis that the stocks would “probably” go down a bit than a bet that predicts recession.
ambicapter
22 days ago
What do the percentages 0.225% and 0.00374% mean here? Is that the size of his position relative to the company's market caps?
jkelleyrtp
22 days ago
1 reply
It seems like the economy is on a “K” shaped flywheel. How much worse can the economy get for the regular worker before the systems just pops? We’ve put so much speculation into an AI/tech salvation that seems premature, especially when you look at ROI vs depreciation timelines.

I’m not sure what timeline to place on that but there has to be a floor for how bad it can get for the regular man.

Shit is just expensive. Young people can’t buy houses, good jobs are drying up, and inflation isn’t stopping.

astrange
22 days ago
1 reply
Graph looks like it's going up to me.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N

rurp
22 days ago
4 replies
I'm sure the Fed chart is accurately measuring what it's measuring but when I was a kid in Southern California it was normal to buy a house and raise kids on a single teacher or construction worker salary. That has become nearly impossible over the past couple decades. Many others have seen similar changes in their own areas and I don't think they're being crazy when they say it has gotten much harder to finance a normal household on a normal salary.

I don't know what the disconnect is with that chart and people's observations. Is that chart controlling for number of incomes and hours worked? If a household income increases by 20% because the members are working a combined 80% more hours that's not great. Category differences in inflation might be another factor. Sure TVs and other niceties are a lot cheaper, but essentials like housing and medical care eat up a huge portion of most budgets.

solumunus
22 days ago
1 reply
Inflation measures aren’t fit for purpose. The biggest expense is housing and housing as a proportion of income is what is killing people financially.
astrange
22 days ago
1 reply
Housing is the largest component of both inflation measures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_consumption_expenditu...

solumunus
20 days ago
I take it back.
jcalvinowens
22 days ago
1 reply
> I don't know what the disconnect is with that chart and people's observations.

The disconnect is that CPI consistently significantly underestimates inflation as experienced by real people.

astrange
22 days ago
1 reply
Slightly overestimates. Alternatives like Truflation show it lower.

You may be thinking of Shadowstats, which is run by a crank who just takes the official numbers and adds a number he made up to them.

I don't know why cranks always think inflation is secretly higher. Deflation is a lot worse than inflation, so if you're a doomer, believing in deflation would be more effective.

jcalvinowens
22 days ago
1 reply
The idea that CPI sucks is far from a conspiracy theory... not sure why you're trying to color it like that.

The problem is that the error integrates over time, which IMHO is why graphs like that seem to suggest our standard of living is higher than ever... when a conversation with anyone at a local bus stop will tell you the exact opposite.

astrange
22 days ago
It's almost impossible for the standard of living to not be higher than ever. That becomes true if you assign any value at all to new medical discoveries. Like, people have been cured of type 1 diabetes in the last year.

I don't think a guy at a bus stop represents the median household well. I'd rather have https://www.census.gov/programs-surveys/cps.html.

dh2022
22 days ago
1 reply
That chart for sure includes higher portion of double income households (because now more women are in the workforce than in the 80s). This reconciles your view with the Fed graph

(Edit-misspelled Fed)

astrange
22 days ago
Households can have more than two incomes - roommates, children who work, grandparents etc.

In practice, household sizes have gone down over time as more people live on their own, which means the income graph is lower than it otherwise would be.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=cWvT

As for dual income families, they're mostly a good thing that happens when women can afford to pay for childcare. That is, that book The Two-Income Trap was mostly false. This is part of the topic of Claudia Goldin's economics Nobel, the other part being that the gender wage gap is caused by motherhood interrupting women's careers.

https://www.nobelprize.org/uploads/2023/12/goldin-lecture-sl...

astrange
22 days ago
The housing crisis is limited to California and other blue states; most places have the opposite problem.

Also, most US households are homeowners, which means housing prices going up increases their (imputed) income.

> Is that chart controlling for number of incomes and hours worked?

Why should it? It's bad practice to control for random things - that gets you collider bias.

But see:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=cWvT

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LNS11300060

themafia
22 days ago
1 reply
> Reminder that economist have predicted 9 of the past 7 recessions.

Is there someone with a better record then?

astrange
22 days ago
2 replies
Recessions can be avoided if you know about them ahead of time, so if you ever successfully predicted one your central bank isn't good enough.
dragonwriter
22 days ago
1 reply
Intervening as if there were a recession inminent when it is not also has harms (the exact same as the harms when recession interventions are maintained too long or employed too intensely, in terms of inflation, etc.), so I wouldn't agree that your central bank is bad if you happened to have guessed right once, but only if you have a demonstrably accurate objective method.
astrange
22 days ago
> the exact same as the harms

It actually appears that the alternative harms aren't as bad; that is, recessions aren't caused by prior expansions and we don't get one by "deserving" them.

https://eml.berkeley.edu/~enakamura/papers/plucking.pdf

Hyperinflation is of course still not good, and it's hard to avoid a recession caused by a natural disaster or something.

themafia
22 days ago
1 reply
Is there a way to predict when central banks aren't "good enough" then?

Point is, for a 100% positive case rate, I have to tolerate a 22% false positive rate. What exactly is the complaint here? Was this line of logic meant to make people who make these predictions look stupid or foolish somehow? To me, it mostly fails to.

astrange
22 days ago
> Is there a way to predict when central banks aren't "good enough" then?

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/SAHMREALTIME

rufus_foreman
22 days ago
>> Reminder that economist have predicted 9 of the past 7 recessions

Historically I think the reality has been the opposite of that, economists have been extremely reluctant to make predictions of an oncoming recession. This was certainly true during the great recession when economists were denying that a recession was coming even after one had actually started. That is to say, economists could not even predict the present.

There are a few economists who are predictably gloomy ("permabears", I suppose Nouriel Roubini would qualify) and I guess now there is political pressure to predict a recession anytime the other political party is in power, but from my perspective, if mainstream economists are predicting a recession, that likely means the recession is almost over.

blitzar
22 days ago
Economist have predicted 179 of the past 7 recessions.
legitster
22 days ago
2 replies
It being a certainty is wrong, but there is a huge differential between the growth of total market value and the lackluster fundamentals, GDP growth, and jobs numbers.

To put another way, there's a lot of "potential energy" being built up in the markets right now. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll pop like a bubble - but there's really no precedent for them to continue rising.

WheatMillington
22 days ago
1 reply
6 months ago you could accurately say there's "no precedent for them to continue rising". You may be saying the same thing 6 months from now.
legitster
22 days ago
1 reply
It could be true that the market can continue to grow well past 15% above fundamentals for the indefinite future. But the more it goes up, the more improbable it becomes.

If you've flipped heads three times in a row, you're right that I would look foolish saying the next one can't be heads. But at the same time you cannot keep flipping heads forever.

bdangubic
22 days ago
true on all accounts but comment like OP made is ridiculous. to say “for sure XYZ will happen to the market by this date” is childish/funny/insane. to say “eventually” there will be a correction is similar cause of course there will be. so all this talk about bubble and other shit is just nonsense all around
0cf8612b2e1e
22 days ago
That pre-tariff stockpiles have been depleted is going to make some hidden pain more visible.
JKCalhoun
22 days ago
Long overdue? Fairly constant stream of bad news in other sectors of the economy?
abcd_f
22 days ago
Political volatility and the dirty nasty hustle on the Trump/republicans' part that will precede the mid-terms. Combined with the general state of bizarre market bonanza of the past few months. It's a powder keg just waiting for a match.
fullshark
22 days ago
He has no idea, I'm guessing it's wishful thinking, likely from a political partisan, or someone with a lot of dry powder trying to enter the stock market after a correction.
JKCalhoun
22 days ago
1 reply
Well, maybe a whale making waves? Already happening today to Palantir—Nvidia to a lesser degree (whole market to a lesser degree).

By close though the market they may well all end higher. We seem to live in a meme economy.

fennecbutt
22 days ago
The economy is a meme and all the small fish praise the stock market meanwhile the big fish are fully prepared to run you all over and they will. They won't stop until it's all theirs.
ericmcer
22 days ago
2 replies
Will it be another "correction" where it pulls back ~10% before going up another 15%?

The powers that be have too much invested in the market continuing to move up, you are basically betting that Trump, a bunch of billionaires and the FED are going to let the market crash to curb inflation and income inequality. That feels like a bad bet to me.

worik
22 days ago
1 reply
> going to let the market crash

By their very nature the markets can overwhelm any desire to "[not] let the market crash]"

ethbr1
22 days ago
1 reply
Yes and no. Compounding market effects can. First order effects? There's a lot of firepower to blunt those.

Especially when the person in the White House is scared about losing the midterms.

worik
20 days ago
1 reply
"First order effects" I do not know what that means, I can sort of guess.

By now is not the AI market beyond any sensible definition of "first order"?

ethbr1
19 days ago
I meant that the Fed, Treasury, etc. have powerful levels they can pull to head off initial effects.

What can overwhelm them is if those effects cascade and compound into second-order effects, typically multiplied in magnitude.

That's essentially what the fuck-up in 2008 was. The government let Bear Stearns fail because it could handle the effects. What it couldn't handle (or at least, was barely able to) were the second order effects of credit tightening, mortgage derivative repricing, counterparty trust loss, etc. etc.

The government could absolutely prop up the AI bubble, possibly indefinitely. What it can't do is cover second order fallout, if it turns out a lot of risky money was somehow tied into the bubble.

astrange
22 days ago
There isn't a "the market".

The stock market isn't that important (though Trump does care about it). It's the bond market that everyone pays attention to when it stops working.

In a sense, stock market crashes are good for young people because you can buy stocks cheaper. In practice this isn't true because too many people are in debt and you get a balance sheet recession.

linsomniac
21 days ago
A buddy of mine and I have been watching as investors he follows have been saying the market is going to have a major correction in the next 3-6 months for 3 years now. It definitely seems like the market is due for a major correction, but it sure hasn't happened despite repeated projections. The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.
dpoloncsak
22 days ago
I agree. I'm bullish long term on PLTR but with a 600+ EPS, a bit of a pull back may be healthy for it.

With that said, Burry is often credited for "Calling 18 of the past 2 recessions". Even a broken clock....

bdangubic
22 days ago
is this post from 2018? or 2022? I keep reading exactly the same “predictions” here year after year after year… maybe 2026 is the year :)
WheatMillington
22 days ago
There are no certainties in markets. I'm surprised you'd say this with so much confidence.
imvetri
22 days ago
8 replies
how to do such betting ?
sc68cal
22 days ago
1 reply
have enough money to pay the premiums
imvetri
22 days ago
does this technique, in alternative words, mean, buying a company at a price in advance?

I mean, lets say I evaluate a company, and I know what its worth is. Then I put a bid.

JKCalhoun
22 days ago
3 replies
Ask an LLM how to short specific stocks.
toss1
22 days ago
1 reply
Um, please do not suggest people ask that.

If you are having to ask an LLM how to do it, I strongly suggest NOT starting with shorting.

Ask about Put options, which is what Burry is doing here — not even Burry is shorting for this situation.

I'm no expert trader, but the potential losses for shorting are unlimited. You borrow X shares of a stock, and will have to repay your loan in that stock, whatever it costs. If the trade goes against you, you will get a margin call and will need to (re-)fill your account with whatever funds are necessary to pay that amount, or all your other holdings and that position will get sold automatically at whatever that loss amount is. Situations called a "Short Squeeze" arise not infrequently, and even though they are temporary, they can cause a stock price to skyrocket, specifically because so many people are shorting it, and everyone needs to buy to fill their short positions & margin calls. The fact that the price soon falls again helps you not one bit. Plus, the maximum profit is limited to the value of the short. E.g., you short the stock at $100/share, if the company goes bankrupt, you can repay the shares for $zero, making $100/share; but you could lose $1000/share if it goes up 10x.

In contrast, purchasing Put options, the right to sell the stock at a certain price, limits your loss to the cost of the Put options — if your idea turns out to be no good, it just fails and expires worthless.

Here's some MUCH better information:

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/long_put.asp

JKCalhoun
22 days ago
Thanks. Too late to either edit or delete my own comment.
pinko
22 days ago
I did exactly this last Friday as an experiment and Claude Sonnet 4.5 recommended that I go long in an inverse ETF lol. When I told it that was terrible advice, it apologized and suggested buying puts.
Havoc
22 days ago
These are put options not shorts
strictnein
22 days ago
2 replies
Not usually a good idea if you're not a skilled investor, but here's a place to start:

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/06/sellingoptions.a...

imvetri
22 days ago
2 replies
thanks!

is my understanding right?

I make a PUT option on a stock for a price. This price is usually lower than the current market price of the stock.

1.When I do that, the premium amount is to be paid by me when i make the PUT option or I get paid while making the PUT option.

2. Do I have to pay upfront money before hand, while making the PUT option?

3. Is there a deadline for my PUT option. For example, if it doesn't happen, what form of loss do I experience?

zahlman
22 days ago
You buy an option that has a particular cost, which gives you the right to sell stock at a specific price in the future (the "strike price"), within a certain time frame. Typically, these are denominated so that you contract to buy or sell 100 shares. In a "naked" put, you don't actually have the stock that you propose to sell. In the future, you plan to "exercise" the option by buying the stock at the market price. and then immediately sell it at the contracted price.

A put option represents a belief that the price will fall, which makes "right to sell the stock" valuable. Similarly, a call option represents a belief that the price will rise. Both can be bought and sold; you do not "make" them but rather trade in them, just as you would in stock. But the relationship between the stock price and the result from an option is not linear; selling a put and buying a call are both nominally "long" the stock, but are not equivalent.[0]

When you buy an option, you are always immediately out for the cost of the option itself (the "premium"). This is separate from the strike price. It's the market's assessment of how much your "right to sell later" is worth, in itself. By doing this, you are speculating that you can recover that money later, based on how the stock performs. (Depending on your strategy, this can involve buying or short-selling the "underlying" stock, as well as other options.)

So if you buy a put, you pay money (the premium) up front, and you potentially just lose that money completely. Sane options strategies take your entire portfolio into account, and use options to hedge the risk profile of the rest of the profile (rather than trying to use the rest of the profile to justify taking on risk using options).

----

Some details, and further exploration.

Options represent essentially zero-sum speculation on top of the actual price movement. For example, holding everything else constant, a call option increases in value as the price of the underlying increases (the right to buy stock at a fixed price becomes worth more, when the stock is worth more). When a company does well, everyone who holds the actual stock shares in the company's good fortune; but the profit of call holders comes at the expense of those who sold (or "wrote") those calls.

The option is priced according to market expectations of risk (how likely is it that the stock's price will fall below the chosen mark?), and according to duration (the longer you reserve the right to exercise the option, the more likely it is that you'll get a profitable opportunity; therefore, the more valuable and thus expensive the option is). For long-term options (especially now that interest rates are non-trivial) there's a second meaningful duration factor: buying an option comes with the opportunity cost of not holding cash (or treasury bonds) for that period, and that also has to be priced in.

"American" options give you the right to exercise at any point before the deadline; "European" options only allow you to exercise at the deadline. This is also priced in; having more flexibility is worth more.

If you have chosen well, the market price for the stock goes down by a lot. This allows you to profit when you exercise the option.

If you have chosen poorly, you never get the opportunity to profit. Your options "expire worthless"; an option to sell at a point that has already passed has no value. You have been left holding the bag.

In between, you might exercise in a way that recovers only part of the premium you paid.

Much riskier is to sell options against securities you don't hold. (You will likely be legally barred from attempting this at all, and even wealthy experienced traders will be required to hold some percentage of the security value that their options represent.) You are hoping that the option expires worthless, so that you simply claim its value uninhibited. If it doesn't, you may be "assigned" i.e. legally on the hook for someone else's exercise of the option. If you sold a put, you may be forced to pay an inflated price for a stock that crashed. If you sold a call, you may be forced to acquire stock in order to sell it at a discount in order to fulfill your option. The potential loss for selling a put typically far exceeds the maximum potential profit; the potential loss for selling a naked call is unlimited (as we suppose the stock's value can go to infinity).

But if your sale of a call is "covered", or your sale of a put is "cash secured", this means you fully own the security (underlying stock, or liquid assets respectively) corresponding to the option. The cash secured put still incurs the risk of wiping out your entire cash supply, much as if you'd simply bought 100 shares directly, and it puts a hard limit on your upside. But it lets you profit from the stock without actually holding it.

Given sensibly chosen strike prices, covered calls actually end up with a similar risk/benefit profile. As the stock goes to zero, all you end up with is the option premium, because you were holding the stock. If the stock does well, your net profit is limited to the option premium, because the profit from holding the stock cancels out the liability of the option. (Equivalently: you are required to sell the stock at the strike price, but you already have that stock; no matter how high the underlying stock value gets, you can only claim the strike price.)

[0]: Doing both gives risk exposure roughly equivalent to holding the stock, without actually buying it. This is called a "synthetic long". As you can imagine, that is effectively unlimited leverage in itself, and if you attempt it you will be required to hold a significant amount of cash to limit your leverage, and jump through a lot of regulatory hoops to prove both your competence and solvency. I didn't mention this at the start, because you need the details to understand it.

prasadjoglekar
22 days ago
If you buy a PUT, you pay the premium. You'll lose that if your option expires out of the money.

If you sell a PUT, your exposure is much greater; you're the one who has to pay up if the option ends up in the money.

The deadline is the date of the option.

If you do lose money, it's a capital loss (tax benefit) and vice versa for capital gains.

blitzar
22 days ago
3 replies
Selling (writing) options is NOT how you bet against a company.

You either sell the stock short or buy puts.

hencq
22 days ago
1 reply
How is selling call options not betting against a company?
blitzar
22 days ago
Dependant on strikes (assuming at the money, assuming naked short) you would still profit if it stayed the same, or went up a little in price. Selling options is also being short volatility, so the 'bet' is that less will happen than is expected and, in the case of selling calls, with a preference for happenings to be downward.

A downward move could also see volatility go up significantly and increase the value of the options you are short, especially longer dated options.

tommy_axle
22 days ago
1 reply
Technically writing calls is also taking the downside.
mikestew
22 days ago
Technically, yes. But you have to own the stock first (‘cuz writing “naked calls” is not for the faint of heart). Easier and less complicated to just buy puts, especially if you’re looking up “money laundering” in the dictionary.
astrange
22 days ago
I would simply correctly price the equities in the first place.
FanaHOVA
22 days ago
1 reply
The equivalent of "If you have to ask, you can't afford it" here is "If you have to ask, you shouldn't do it".
embedding-shape
22 days ago
4 replies
Overall for the common person I'd agree, but I assume we're all more or less hackers here and for us, I'd say "If you have to ask, ask and learn, then do it".

If everyone followed your advice no one would ever do anything, as we all begin somewhere, something that should OK.

Of course, don't do million dollar trades when you begin, but we shouldn't push back on people wanting to learn, feels very backwards compared to hacker ethos.

imvetri
22 days ago
1 reply
thank you for being nice
roughly
22 days ago
1 reply
To expand on the original reply to you - shorting companies, or engaging in almost any stock-based activity beyond “buy and hold,” typically entails much, much higher risk than just buying and selling stock. The most you can lose when buying a share is the purchase price, and that’s fairly unlikely, but when you start getting into even options/etc, you’re magnifying your risk - small swings in the market can lead to large and disproportionate losses, and when you get into shorting in particular you can lose far more than your initial investment. This is why you’re getting the reaction you’re getting - because the thing you’re asking about is sufficiently risky that if you're asking on Hacker News (and not, say, asking a professional), you don’t understand the risk profile well enough to do it “safely.”

That, and because snarky answers get more imaginary internet points than helpful ones.

embedding-shape
22 days ago
1 reply
> you don’t understand the risk profile well enough to do it “safely.”

Since when is this a problem? For gods sake, let people fuck up and harm themselves if they're stupid enough to take the risks, or not.

I think it's fine to say "Remember, this is risky because of A, B and C, but here's how to do it anyways..." but straight up "If you have to ask, you shouldn't" seems so backwards and almost mean, especially when we talk about money which is mostly "easy come, easy go". Let the fool be parted with their money if that's what they want :)

roughly
22 days ago
I mean, there’s risk and there’s risk. If someone comes in asking “how do I mod my phone/ebike/toaster”, sure, caveat commentor and all that. If someone comes in asking “how do I make dioxygen difluoride,” that’s a different category of risk. OP can do whatever they want, but I’m not in the habit of giving guns to people who don’t know what they are without making sure they know which risk category they’re in.
pleasedontman
22 days ago
1 reply
we shouldn't push back on people wanting to learn but we should really point out very loudly that not fully understanding something like shorting can turn a small investment someone was fully ok with losing into a life altering bankruptcy due to a margin call.

Leverage can be a fearful thing.

embedding-shape
22 days ago
Yup, I agree, be clear what the consequences are if you fuckup, allow people to fuckup if they wish.
geoka9
22 days ago
> "If you have to ask, ask and learn..."

Totally! But also keep in mind this :)

https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1570:_Engineer_Sy...

IAmBroom
22 days ago
How about, "If you think an explanation from HN will explain it all to you, you're being naive about the complexities and risks"?
pksebben
22 days ago
1 reply
if you're remotely serious about 'trying' this stuff out, do it in paper trades first. The options world is full of the corpses of dead portfolios.
JumpCrisscross
22 days ago
1 reply
> options world is full of the corpses of dead portfolios

Former options market maker here. Please don’t buy options as a retail investor. (Maybe write to generate income.)

zahlman
22 days ago
1 reply
Do you think they're overpriced? Or do you just not trust retail investors to understand the effective leverage, spread of outcomes etc.?

I'm told that covered-call ETFs generally underperform (in addition to being inefficient) and "generating income" is best accomplished by just selling shares as needed.

JumpCrisscross
22 days ago
1 reply
> Do you think they're overpriced?

Options are always overpriced. They're fundamentally an insurance product. You should expect to lose money when buying insurance. If you're hedging, you should expect to lose on your options leg. Same as with any insurance product.

Options are governed by tight mathematical relationships between each other and with their underlyings. These can be atomically arbitraged, i.e. you don't need someone else to believe your thesis to make money. As a retail investor, you are on the other side of a system designed to efficiently price and reprice options to ensure the dealer doesn't lose money.

> I'm told that covered-call ETFs generally underperform (in addition to being inefficient)

I haven't looked into covered-call ETFs, but my prior is strategy ETFs are bullshit even when the underlying strategy may not be.

> "generating income" is best accomplished by just selling shares as needed

Yes. (Or borrowing against them.)

zahlman
22 days ago
1 reply
... And how do you feel about selling CSPs, then?
JumpCrisscross
22 days ago
> how do you feel about selling CSPs

It works as long as you understand you're selling the options below their expected value (EV). It's closer to EV than an option buyer, on average. But the price you get will always represent less reward for risk than my option pricers running on microwave-linked FPGAs a few feet from servers in New Jersey and Chicago can bid and offer.

If that works for you--if the benefits of income or whatever outweigh that theoretical cost--you can do it sensibly. If you're selling puts to enhance your returns, you're probably going to, at the very least, lose your accumulated gains at some point.

TacticalCoder
22 days ago
1 reply
TFA says "bought put options". One option (either PUT or CALL) is typically 100x the shares (but mini lots of 10x exists or at least did exist at some point).

So he bought (he's long on the PUTs) 10 000 PUTs on NVDA and 50 000 PUTs on PLTR. I don't know at which expiration dates nor at which strikes.

A PUT option can be either a bet (like in TFA) that an underlying shall go down below a certain price before a certain date of it can be an hedge when you own the stock, believe it could go up some more, but also want to be protected should it crash. Now of course hedging has a cost and it's not cheap: an option is an insurance. Even the terminology is the same: the buyer pays a premium and the seller (i.e. the one selling the insurance) collects that premium.

Now if you want to learn about full-on degenerate gambling, these last years there's been an explosion in "0DTE": options with zero day to expiration. Because they're 0DTE, there's very little "extrinsic" value in these. So it's a "cheap" way to get basically 100x leverage (either short or long).

Here's a small documentary of 5 minutes about 0DTEs:

https://youtu.be/5atTocDOTpY

zahlman
22 days ago
I vouched for your post because the information is correct as far as I can discern. Perhaps others felt that you didn't warn strongly enough against engaging in such "full-on degenerate gambling"?

But the risk profile of options depends on more than date to expiration. Of course the strike prices matter, as well as the rest of your portfolio. The real "degenerate gamblers" are taking that leverage without compensating for it. But for example, holding something with 100x effective leverage can be balanced out by only putting 1% of your portfolio there and keeping the rest in cash. (This will generally be inefficient and there's a high chance you won't do as well as just holding the underlying.)

B1FF_PSUVM
22 days ago
Get a brokerage account that allows CFD. Know what is a margin call. Greenhorns usually get wiped out.

Note: you pay overnight swap fees or similar for holding a position. "The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."

1vuio0pswjnm7
22 days ago
https://www.fool.com/investing/how-to-invest/stocks/how-to-s...

https://www.schwab.com/learn/story/shorting-stocks-your-inve...

https://www.fidelity.com/viewpoints/active-investor/selling-...

lordnacho
22 days ago
7 replies
I'm not sure the bet is as big as it seems from the headline. When you buy options, you pay a fixed premium to get the right to buy/sell a very large value of shares, called the notional. But the notional is not what you are losing if it goes wrong, you lose the premium. The premium can be quite a small number compared to the notional.
selim17Author
22 days ago
1 reply
You can check here: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1649339/000164933925... Is this like what you say?
humanlion87
22 days ago
1 reply
Not the OP. I agree with what OP is mentioning. As part of the report you have to file the notional value of the underlying stock. Let's assume I buy one put option for palantir at a price of $1/contract ( say for an extremely OTM strike price of $10 ). I have paid a premium of $100. Assuming stock price of palantir is $200, the notional value I have to report is $200*100 = $20k. And not the $100 premium I paid.
pksebben
22 days ago
1 reply
This seems to back that up: https://www.sec.gov/files/form13f.pdf

FWIG you can't actually see what premium was paid on an option unless the buyer chooses to disclose that themselves.

JumpCrisscross
22 days ago
> you can't actually see what premium was paid on an option

Nor the strike or tenor. (Options are more thinly traded than stocks. This confidentiality is practical.)

ericmcer
22 days ago
3 replies
Yeah I feel like 200m of PLTR put options would distort the market so much the contracts would struggle to overcome their own premium.

They must be referring the the value of the shares the contracts represent?

smallmancontrov
22 days ago
1 reply
On a single contract, maybe, but remember that the counterparty is usually a market maker who doesn't take directional risk, their game is to bet that the cost of delta hedging is less than the premium they collect, and that's more of an implied vs realized volatility thing than a directional thing. Even if we took it for granted that Michael Burry was smart money, to a first order approximation the dealers don't care and would be happy to earn fees for managing his leverage.
the-grump
22 days ago
Yeah what usually happens is they match it with call purchases and thus they are not actually your counterparty economically.

There is enough bullish momentum that a trade of this size can actually be placed (of course in chunks).

JumpCrisscross
22 days ago
1 reply
> PLTR put options would distort the market

Puts are calls and calls are puts [1]. On a certain level, all options of a given expiry and underlying are shadows of the same object.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Put%E2%80%93call_parity

stevefan1999
22 days ago
1 reply
Only applies to European Options
JumpCrisscross
22 days ago
> Only applies to European Options

Absolutely false.

Options theory typically starts with European non-dividend paying options for simplicity. PCP applies to American-style options on dividend-paying stocks, you just get a solution with pairs of inequalities defining bounds. That leads to similar arbitrage and conversion mechanics with similar implications for market participants.

quickthrowman
22 days ago
It’s $200M notional.

To make the math easy, let’s assume it’s a PLTR 200 strike put expiring in February 2026. Each put is $20,000 notional so 10,000 puts would be $200M notional.

Feb PLTR 200Ps are trading for $3k or so each, so it would be $30M in premium for $200M notional with an in-the-money put.

If a market maker sells one 200P (52 delta) they are functionally long 52 shares, so they hedge by selling short 52 shares (or selling a call with 52 delta). If he has 10k contracts then the MM that sold the puts would be functionally long 520,000 shares and would need to short that many deltas to hedge.

Avg recent trading volume for PLTR is ~50M shares a day; 10,000 (50 delta) puts is roughly equal to 500,000 shares and be about 1% of a day’s trading volume.

Tl;dr: He’s holding 10k to 50k put contracts, depending on the moneyness and expiration date.

datavirtue
22 days ago
4 replies
They are only selling puts...that's a half-hearted short. They have the resources to borrow shares and bag the whole amount without a time constraint...why not do that?
lukewink
22 days ago
1 reply
Selling puts is not a short at all
nickff
22 days ago
1 reply
It is commonly referred to as a ‘short position’, though it is not ‘shorting the stock’. Equally, purchasing calls* is referred to as a ‘long position’ (as is holding the equity).

edit: smallmancontrov below pointed out that I wrote 'purchasing puts' was long, when I meant to write 'purchasing calls'

smallmancontrov
22 days ago
1 reply
Selling puts is a long position. Purchasing puts is short.
pgwhalen
22 days ago
It’s all a matter of perspective I suppose, and of course I understand why you say this, but no professional options trader I’ve ever met would speak in these terms.
klodolph
22 days ago
Buying puts.
metabagel
22 days ago
They’re buying puts.
smallmancontrov
22 days ago
Once you fully risk manage a short position and account for the price of doing so, you might realize that you have reinvented a put contract.
drob518
22 days ago
1 reply
Yes, but premiums on NVDA and PLTR are not small as premiums go. He’s still going to be spending a huge chunk.
JumpCrisscross
22 days ago
1 reply
> premiums on NVDA and PLTR are not small as premiums go. He’s still going to be spending a huge chunk

He may be. We may also only be seeing parts of the trade.

blitzar
22 days ago
@michaeljburry - 2:04 PM · Nov 4, 2025 https://x.com/michaeljburry/status/1985709760272908614

Fake news! I am not 5’6” (not that there is anything wrong with that).

And journalists reporting on 13Fs, none more fake.

heisgone
22 days ago
2 replies
It's also likely edged in all sort of ways the article doesn't cover.
simianwords
22 days ago
1 reply
You mean hedged
thedrexster
22 days ago
It can be both! :D
quickthrowman
22 days ago
He would have to report the hedge for the PLTR trade in the same disclosure form, so no he isn’t.
syassami
22 days ago
It's almost as if journalists don't have an incentive to explain this correctly...
the-grump
22 days ago
Normally I'd agree, but it's a massive holding in their disclosure. So they put a bunch of money into this bet, likely to buy distant expiries.
lvl155
22 days ago
3 replies
Just because something is expensive doesn’t mean you should short it via puts as Burry had done. Both Palantir and Nvidia have high IVs. You’re paying for that. You’re much better off looking for cheaper puts on securities with enough correlation. Since Volmageddon and pandemic craze, deep OTM options have been scalped to death. Rarely good value. Nvidia also didn’t report earnings yet which means you’re paying for that risk event. Not saying bullish or bearish. It’s all speculation BOTH ways.
the__alchemist
22 days ago
4 replies
Can someone explain why puts make sense over shorting? For example, I'm betting against 5 quantum computing companies with short positions. I considered adding puts to the position, but it didn't make sense based on 2 reasons: High bid ask spread, and if it's a fraudulent company/otherwise worth betting against, the volatility will be high, so you option costs too much compared to the upside; the amount it has to drop to break even is too big.
candiddevmike
22 days ago
2 replies
With a put, you can only lose what the put is worth. With shorting, you can in theory have infinite loses.
the__alchemist
22 days ago
2 replies
Yea; true. My thought when evaluating these was "I am confident the price will drop significantly within the next 6-18 months. But if I screw up the timing, or it drops to 1/3 the value instead of 1/2 etc, I lose money or break even. While I'm reasonably confident the normal short will pay off, since I don't have to nail the amount or timing.
ProjectArcturis
22 days ago
With shorting, you run the additional risks that you could lose the borrow and be forced to buy back at any time. Or get margin called if the price moves against you. With puts, you have to get the timing right, but no external factors can force you out of your position.
nickff
22 days ago
Even if you're right, but the value goes up before going down, you can lose out with a short, if your counter-party makes a call for collateral you don't have.
JumpCrisscross
22 days ago
2 replies
> With shorting, you can in theory have infinite loses

This risk can be hedged with futures and options.

javcasas
22 days ago
1 reply
Congratulations, you just invented the synthetic put.
JumpCrisscross
22 days ago
> you just invented the synthetic put

Short and a call, yes. Short and a future, no. Either way, infinite losses isn’t an unavoidable downside when it comes to shorting. Stock-borrow and margin risks are.

busyant
22 days ago
Agreed. But it adds complexity.

Sometimes you just want simple leverage, which the puts can provide.

twalla
22 days ago
Options are just that - an option to transact at a certain price, if you choose not to you're just out the premium you pay. Short selling involves an obligation to return the shares, which has (theoretically) unlimited downside.
JumpCrisscross
22 days ago
> Can someone explain why puts make sense over shorting?

Leverage, margin risk and stock-borrow risk. (The last refers to the folks who lent you the shares recalling them inconveniently.)

luddit3
22 days ago
Derivative markets are almost always there to provide leverage. Yeah, thinly traded options are a significant downside. If you can get in and out of the contracts, you can always combine options to remove some of those volatility costs by selling as well as buying, ie, spreads and ratios.
JumpCrisscross
22 days ago
1 reply
> Both Palantir and Nvidia have high IVs

The relevant Greeks are delta, gamma and vega.

If your bet pays off, the price of the stock will decrease. Delta predicts how your option will increase in value with that; gamma if that relationship will accelerate or buffer. Vega, meanwhile, informs that the price suddenly crashing is volatility, which increases the value of your options.

Succinctly, if you are betting on a crash, options offer advantages. (And if the market, but not your company, gets bailed out, vega could put you middlingly in the black.)

lvl155
22 days ago
2 replies
I am not saying he won’t make money. But it won’t be commensurate with the risk he took on.
JumpCrisscross
22 days ago
> won’t be commensurate with the risk he took on

Former options market maker here. We have insufficient data to conclude that.

I also happen to have experience unwinding correlation books after their originators shat the bed. Predicting a crisis is hard. Predicting correlations in a crisis for esoteric assets is almost impossible.

Burry wanted to bet on specific overvalued stocks. Not a general market crash. For that, puts are probably the best tool if the expectation is a sharp correction followed by, in all likelihood, a Trump put.

ekjhgkejhgk
22 days ago
> But it won’t be commensurate with the risk he took on.

On what basis do you say this?

roadside_picnic
22 days ago
1 reply
> high IVs. You’re paying for that.

Glad to see someone say it. A lot of people have a hypothesis about the market, but fail to do the follow through to see if the market has already priced that in. The real aim should be to see when your model (mental or mathematical) prices things differently than the market.

In this case, it's actually quite reasonable to believe that the market has over priced the risk no matter how "sure" anyone is that these companies are over valued. It's entirely reasonable to pay for an option that you think reflects an unlikely scenario, but you also believe is mispriced notably by the market.

drob518
22 days ago
1 reply
With options, the market has nearly always priced in the obvious risk. But not the non-obvious risk. Burry is not just saying, “I think these companies are overvalued.” Rather, he’s saying, “I think the bubble is about ready to pop.” While many people see the bubble, Burry is making a bet on the timing of the pop.
geoka9
22 days ago
Yeah, my (limited) understanding is that the GP's argument would be valid for an options trader who looks for pricing inefficiencies to take advantage of (regardless of bullish/bearish outlook) but not _that_ important for someone betting on a black swan event?

172 more comments available on Hacker News

View full discussion on Hacker News
ID: 45813734Type: storyLast synced: 11/20/2025, 8:23:06 PM

Want the full context?

Jump to the original sources

Read the primary article or dive into the live Hacker News thread when you're ready.

Read ArticleView on HN
Not Hacker News Logo

Not

Hacker

News!

AI-observed conversations & context

Daily AI-observed summaries, trends, and audience signals pulled from Hacker News so you can see the conversation before it hits your feed.

LiveBeta

Explore

  • Home
  • Hiring
  • Products
  • Companies
  • Discussion
  • Q&A

Resources

  • Visit Hacker News
  • HN API
  • Modal cronjobs
  • Meta Llama

Briefings

Inbox recaps on the loudest debates & under-the-radar launches.

Connect

© 2025 Not Hacker News! — independent Hacker News companion.

Not affiliated with Hacker News or Y Combinator. We simply enrich the public API with analytics.