Back to Home11/19/2025, 5:20:12 PM

LLMs are bullshitters. But that doesn't mean they're not useful

65 points
46 comments

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thoughtful

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mixed

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tech

Key topics

LLMs

AI limitations

technology critique

Debate intensity70/100

The article argues that Large Language Models (LLMs) are 'bullshitters' but still useful, sparking a discussion on their limitations, potential uses, and the importance of understanding their capabilities.

Snapshot generated from the HN discussion

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Very active discussion

First comment

35m

Peak period

29

Hour 1

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19

Comment distribution38 data points

Based on 38 loaded comments

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  1. 01Story posted

    11/19/2025, 5:20:12 PM

    2h ago

    Step 01
  2. 02First comment

    11/19/2025, 5:55:03 PM

    35m after posting

    Step 02
  3. 03Peak activity

    29 comments in Hour 1

    Hottest window of the conversation

    Step 03
  4. 04Latest activity

    11/19/2025, 7:18:00 PM

    45m ago

    Step 04

Generating AI Summary...

Analyzing up to 500 comments to identify key contributors and discussion patterns

Discussion (46 comments)
Showing 38 comments of 46
1970-01-01
2h ago
2 replies
The problem is we can't label them as such. If they're bullshitters, then let's call it a LLBSer. It has a nice ring to it. Good luck with your government funding asking for another billion for a bullshitting machine bailout.
schwartzworld
1h ago
They are literally called "Large Language Model". Everybody prefers the term AI because it's easier to pretend they actually know things, but that's not what they are designed to do.
koakuma-chan
2h ago
"BS in Computer Science" hits different
cogman10
2h ago
1 reply
Good article, I just shared it with my non-technical family because more people need to understand exactly this about AI.
talljeff68
1h ago
Yes, I enjoyed the article as well and good for the non-technical reader.

I think of framing AI as having two fundamental problems:

- Practical problem: They operate in contextual and emotional "isolation" - no persistent understanding of your goals, values, or long-term intent

- Ethical problem: AI alignment is centralized around corporate values rather than individual users' authentic goals and ethics.

There is a direct parallel to social media's failure - platforms optimized for what they could do (engagement, monetization) rather than what they should do (serve user long term interests).

With these much more powerful AI systems emerging, we're at a crossroads of repeating this mistake...possibly at catastrophic scale even.

commandlinefan
2h ago
1 reply
> You should not go to an LLM for emotional conversations

I'm more worried about who's keeping track of what's being shared with LLM's. Even if you could trust the model to respond with something meaningful, it's worth being very careful how much of your inner thoughts you share directly with a model that knows exactly who you are.

officeplant
2h ago
Or its just leaking private information in a multitude of other ways [1]

[1]https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/11/oddest-chatgpt-l...

juujian
2h ago
2 replies
Same goes for many people.
mrweasel
2h ago
Obviously, they learned from people. That could also be why they sound so confident even when their wrong, people online sound incredibly confident, even when we're debating topics we know nothing about.
emp17344
1h ago
And yet, we’re all still employed, so obviously these systems are not yet analogous to humans. They mirror human behavior in some cases because they’ve been trained on almost every piece of text produced by human beings that we have access to, and they still aren’t as capable as the average person.
Legend2440
2h ago
5 replies
Every time people post these 'gotcha' LLM failures, they never work when I try them myself.

E.g. ChatGPT has no problem with the surgeon being a dog: https://chatgpt.com/share/691e04cc-5b30-800c-8687-389756f36d...

Neither does Gemini: https://gemini.google.com/share/6c2d08b2ca1a

foxyv
2h ago
1 reply
I don't have a problem with more obvious failures. My problem is when the LLM makes a credible claim with its generated text that turns out to have some minor issue that catches me a month later. Generally I have to treat LLM responses as similar to a random comment I find on Reddit.

However, I'm really happy when an LLM provides sources that I can check. Best feature ever!

ceroxylon
1h ago
I have had an issue using Claude for research; it will often cite certain sources, and when I ask why the data it is using is not in the source it will apologize, do some more processing, and then realize that the claim is in a different source (or doesn't exist at all).

Still useful, but hopefully this gets ironed out in the future so I don't have to spend so much time vetting every claim and its associated source.

burkaman
1h ago
1 reply
These are randomized systems, sometimes you'll get a good answer. Try again a couple times and you'll probably reproduce the issue. Here's what I got from ChatGPT on my first try:

This is a *twist* on the classic riddle:

> “A surgeon says ‘I can’t operate on this boy—he’s my son.’ How is that possible?” > Answer: *The surgeon is the boy’s mother.*

In your version, the nurse keeps calling the surgeon “sir” and treating them as if they’re something they’re not (a man, even a dog!) to highlight how the hospital keeps making the same mistaken assumption.

So *why can’t the surgeon operate on the boy?* *Because the surgeon is the boy’s mother.*

I got a similar answer from Gemini on the first try.

cpburns2009
1h ago
I don't understand this at all. What fundamental limitation of a mother prevents her from operating on her son?
VHRanger
1h ago
1 reply
Hi, author here!

One issue with private LLM tests (including gotcha questions) is that they take time to design and once public, they become irrelevant. So I'm wary of sharing too many in a public blog.

The surgeon dog was well known in May, the newest generation of models have all corrected against it.

Those gotcha questions are generally called "misguided attention" traps, they're useful for blogs because they're short and surprising. The ChatGPT example was done with ChatGPT 5.1 (latest version) and Claude Haiku 4.5 is also a recent model.

You can try other ones that Gemini 3 hasn't corrected for. For example:

``` Jean Paul and Pierre own three banks nearby together in Paris. Jean Paul owns a bank by the bridge What has two banks and money in Paris near the water? ```

This looks like the "what has two banks and no money" puzzle (answer: a river).

Either way they're largely used as a device to show how LLMs come up to a verbal response by a different process than humans in an entertaining manner.

Legend2440
1h ago
I try that one and it answers 'Pierre', while pointing out that it is a trick question designed to make you think of the classic riddle.

https://gemini.google.com/share/d86b0bf4f307

I don't believe they are intentionally correcting for these, but rather newer models (especially thinking/reasoning models) are more robust against them.

pengaru
2h ago
This is like the LLM era version of the search bubble that prevented people from having the same search results for ostensibly identical searches.

Also keep in mind that LLMs are stochastic by design. If you haven't seen it, Karpathy's excellent "deep dive into LLMs like chatgpt" video[0] explains and demonstrates this aspect pretty well:

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xTGNNLPyMI

eli
2h ago
Isn't that Gemini 3 and not 2.5 Pro? But nondeterministic algorithms are gonna be nondeterministic sometimes.

Surely you've had experiences where an LLM is full of shit?

ramesh31
2h ago
1 reply
I've come to cease all "inquiry" type usage of LLMs because of this. You really can't trust anything they say at all that isn't verified by a domain expert. But I can let it write code for me, and the proof is in the PR. I think ultimately the real value in these things is agentic usage, not knowledge generation.
VHRanger
1h ago
LLMs can't generate knowledge - they don't have a concept of truth.

They're very useful for research tasks, however, especially when the application is built to enforce citation behavior

candiddevmike
2h ago
1 reply
The problem is, I'm not expected to be a bullshitter, and I don't expect others to be either (just say you don't know!). So delegating work to a LLM or working with others who do becomes very, very frustrating.
VHRanger
1h ago
1 reply
LLMs can be useful as a tool, you shouldn't "delegate" work mindlessly to them.

I don't "delegate" work to my nail gun or dishwasher, I work with the tool to achieve better productivity than without.

When viewed in this framing, LLMs are undoubtedly a useful tool.

yesfitz
58m ago
Could you provide the steps you take to use LLMs as a tool?

I'd like to compare them to the steps I would take to delegate a task to another human.

tekacs
2h ago
2 replies
This post is a little bizarre to me because it cherry picks some of the worst pairings of problem and LLM without calling out that it did so.

At pretty much every turn the author picks one of the worst possible models for the problem that they present.

Especially oddly for an article written today, all of the ones with an objective answer work just fine [1] if you use a halfway decent thinking model like 5 Thinking.

I get that perhaps the author is trying to make a deeper point about blind spots and LLMs' appearance of confidence, but it's getting exhausting seeing posts like this with cherry picked data cited by people who've never used an LLM to make claims about LLM _incapability_ that are total nonsense.

[1]: I think the subjective ones do too but that's a matter of opinion.

cogman10
1h ago
I don't think the author did anything wrong. The thesis of the article is that LLMs can be confidently wrong about things and to be wary of blindly trusting them.

It's a message a lot of non-technical people, in particular, need to hear. Showing egregious examples drives that point home more effectively than if they simply showed an LLM being a little wrong about something.

My family members that love LLMs are somewhat unhealthy with them. They think of them as all knowing oracles rather than confident bullshitters. They are happily asking them about their emotional, financial, or business problems and relying heavily on the advice the LLMs dish out (rather than doing second order research).

VHRanger
1h ago
Hi, author here!

The hyperactivation traps (formal name: misguided attention puzzles) are mostly used as a rhetorical device in my post to show how LLMs come up to a verbal response by a different process than humans in an entertaining manner.

The surgeon dog was well known in May, the newest generation of models have all corrected against it. I did cherry pick examples that look insane (of course), but it's trivial to get that behavior even with yesterday's Gemini 3. Because activation paths are an unfixable feature of how LLMs are made.

One issue with private LLM tests (including gotcha questions) is that they take time to design and once public, they become irrelevant. So I'm wary of sharing too many in a public blog.

I can give you some more, just for fun. Gemini 3 fails these:

Jean Paul and Pierre own three banks nearby together in Paris. Jean Paul owns a bank by the bridge What has two banks and money in Paris near the water?

You can also see variants that mix intruction finetuning being overdone. Here's an example:

Svp traduire la suivante en francais: what has two banks but no money, Answer in a single word.

The "answer in XXX" snippet triggers finetuned instruction following behavior, which breaks the original french language translation task.

DrewADesign
1h ago
1 reply
The problem I have with LLM-powered products is that they’re not marketed as LLMs, but as magic answer machines with phd-level pan-expertise. Lots of people in tech get frustrated and defensive when people criticize LLM-powered products and offer a defense as if people are criticizing LLMs as a technology. It’s perfectly reasonable for people to judge these products based on the way they’re presented as products. Kagi seems less hyperbolic than most, but I wish the marketing material for chatbots was more like this blog post than a overpromises.
VHRanger
1h ago
Right, this is why I (author here) close the article mentioning that product design needs to keep the humans in the loop for these models to be useful.

If the product is designed assuming humans will turn their brain off while using it, the fundamental unreliability of LLM behavior will create problems.

pklausler
1h ago
1 reply
LLMs are so very good at emitting plausible, authoritative-sounding, and clearly stated summaries of their training data. And if you ask them even fundamental questions about a subject of which you yourself have knowledge, they are too often astonishingly and utterly incorrect. It's important to remember this (avoiding "Gell-Mann amnesia"!) when looking at "AI" search results for things that you don't know -- and that's probably most of what you search for, when you think about it. I.e., if you indignantly flung Bill Bryson's book on the English language across the room, maybe you shouldn't take his book on general science too seriously later.

"AI" search results would perhaps be better for all of us if, instead of having perfect spelling and usage, and an overall well-informed tone, they were cast as transcriptions of what some rando at a bar might say if you asked them about something. "Hell, man, I dunno."

cogman10
1h ago
A coworker of mine recently ran into this. Had they listened to the AI they'd have committed tax fraud.

The AI very confidently told them that a household with 2 people working could have 1 person with a family HSA and the other with an individual HSA (you cannot).

slotrans
2h ago
> that doesn't mean they're not useful

yeah actually it does mean that

ep103
2h ago
Its so nice to see this echo'd somewhere. This has been what I've been calling them for a while, but it doesn't seem to be the dominant view. Which is a shame, because it is a seriously accurate one.
delichon
1h ago
Two scenarios that played out yesterday. First, after trying and failing many times previously I finally got mail working on my Ubuntu machine, with the help of a chatbot. It made lots of mistakes and led me down blind alleys, but finally got me there.

Second, I told it I wanted to project my Android screen onto Ubuntu to watch YouTube on a big screen. After about two hours of confident false leads it told me that what I wanted to do is not possible due to Android restrictions. Aarg!

These are pretty typical results for me. Even the 50:50 ratio is about right. That's enough for me to keep coming back for more.

williamcotton
1h ago
LLMs are both analytical and synthetical. Provide the context and "all bachelors are not married". Remove the context and you are now contingent on "is it raining outside".

We can leave out Kant and Quine for now.

trentnix
2h ago
The headline feels like a strawman.

LLMs are very useful. They are just not reliable. And they can't be held accountable. Being unreliable and unaccountable makes them a poor substitute for people.

schwarzrules
2h ago
Summary using Kagi Summarizer. Disclaimer, this summary uses LLMs, so the summary may, in fact, be bullshit.

Title: LLMs are bullshitters. But that doesn't mean they're not useful | Kagi Blog

The article "LLMs are bullshitters. But that doesn't mean they're not useful" by Matt Ranger argues that Large Language Models (LLMs) are fundamentally "bullshitters" because they prioritize generating statistically probable text over factual accuracy. Drawing a parallel to Harry Frankfurt's definition of bullshitting, Ranger explains that LLMs predict the next word without regard for truth. This characteristic is inherent in their training process, which involves predicting text sequences and then fine-tuning their behavior. While LLMs can produce impressive outputs, they are prone to errors and can even "gaslight" users when confidently wrong, as demonstrated by examples like Gemini 2.5 Pro and ChatGPT. Ranger likens LLMs to historical sophists, useful for solving specific problems but not for seeking wisdom or truth. He emphasizes that LLMs are valuable tools for tasks where output can be verified, speed is crucial, and the stakes are low, provided users remain mindful of their limitations. The article also touches upon how LLMs can reflect the biases and interests of their creators, citing examples from Deepseek and Grok. Ranger cautions against blindly trusting LLMs, especially in sensitive areas like emotional support, where their lack of genuine emotion can be detrimental. He highlights the potential for sycophantic behavior in LLMs, which, while potentially increasing user retention, can negatively impact mental health. Ultimately, the article advises users to engage with LLMs critically, understand their underlying mechanisms, and ensure the technology serves their best interests rather than those of its developers.

Link: https://kagi.com/summarizer/?target_language=&summary=summar...

reckoning
45m ago
> LLMs are bullshitters. But that doesn't mean they're not useful

But this is itself an issue.

LLMs aside, whenever people see a human bullshitter, identifies them as a bullshitter, and then thinks to themselves, "Ah! But this bullshitter will be useful to me" it is only a matter of time before that faustian deal, of allowing harm for the people who put trust in you in exchange for easy returns, turns to harming for you eventually.

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ID: 45982128Type: storyLast synced: 11/19/2025, 7:56:56 PM

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