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  1. Home
  2. /Story
  3. /Court filings allege Meta downplayed risks to children and misled the public
  1. Home
  2. /Story
  3. /Court filings allege Meta downplayed risks to children and misled the public
Nov 23, 2025 at 10:18 AM EST

Court filings allege Meta downplayed risks to children and misled the public

binning
166 points
59 comments

Mood

calm

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  1. 01Story posted

    Nov 23, 2025 at 10:18 AM EST

    16h ago

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  2. 02First comment

    Nov 23, 2025 at 11:17 AM EST

    60m after posting

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  3. 03Peak activity

    33 comments in Hour 2

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  4. 04Latest activity

    Nov 24, 2025 at 2:45 AM EST

    5m ago

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Discussion (59 comments)
Showing 145 comments
kryogen1c
15h ago
2 replies
> a Meta spokesperson said in a statement to TIME. "The full record will show that for over a decade, we have listened to parents, researched issues that matter most, and made real changes to protect teens

Omegalol. Cigarette maker introduces filter, cares about your health.

mtillman
14h ago
2 replies
Every cig exec lied under oath and only received monetary fines.
flag_fagger
12h ago
2 replies
Cigarette makers were a dying cry of the old aristocracy. Silicon Valley is the rallying cry of the new aristocracy.

While I don’t quite believe they’ll achieve their Feudal dreams in the near-medium future. I do expect the US to transition to a much more explicitly an oligarchic republic as a large, with the pretense of “Government of the people, by the people, for the people” is largely pushed to the side.

Only solution seems to be to drop out of society to whatever degree possible.

samdoesnothing
11h ago
2 replies
The government and massive corporations being in bed with each other is nothing new. Different breed same species. Except tech execs think they're a lot smarter than they are.
Refreeze5224
2h ago
1 reply
It's nothing new, as it is essentially the only logical outcome of capitalism. It's not an aberration, it's an intended feature. Capital is power, and law and government is how that power is expressed and enacted over those without capital.
samdoesnothing
1h ago
1 reply
It's actually the logical outcome of any system with a consolidated monopoly on political power (the government). Blaming capitalism is ridiculous because alternative systems suffer from the exact same issue.
Refreeze5224
5m ago
Sort of. Capitalism cannot exist without a monopoly of coercive state power backing it. So it makes sense to criticize it when that's what's actually happening. Other systems can work without coercive state power, are in fact intended to, and result in more freedom for the members of the resulting society, so I agree with your take on government generally.
pclmulqdq
10h ago
Pretty much all execs throughout time have thought that.
Loughla
11h ago
Cashless payments, always connected software and devices, and required app use for basic services like power, water, and heat as well as extreme data collection as it exists today makes dropping out of society more difficult than ever.

While his crimes were atrocious, Ted Kaczynski might be right in some ways. The industrial and technological revolutios have improved life dramatically for n many humans and we live in a tube of astonishing abundance, but at what cost?

aaaaannndd now I'm on a list somewhere.

kryogen1c
14h ago
The comparison was not accidental. I expect a similar, meaningless outcome for poisoning children.
nielsbot
3h ago
I bet true but misleading:

> listened to parents

...but not taken significant actions

> researched issues that matter most

...but ignored the results of the research

> made real changes to protect teens

...sure, insignificant changes

binarymax
15h ago
12 replies
Look, most of us here know that meta is a terrible company that has done terrible things. But what is actually being done about it? So far just some token fines and petty wrist slaps. What’s really the plan here? Because they’re not going to stop.
PessimalDecimal
15h ago
3 replies
Are there any serious attempts to enact a "corporate death penalty" in the US? Is there even a viable route to getting something like that in the current regime?
binarymax
15h ago
4 replies
My opinion is that if corporate personhood is OK, then the corporation should face the same consequences as people do when they break the law. So facilitation of human trafficking should go to criminal court.
Aurornis
14h ago
3 replies
> So facilitation of human trafficking should go to criminal court.

Be careful what you wish for.

Who else should go to criminal court for facilitating human trafficking? The airlines because they sold flights to these people, statistically speaking? What if they used a messaging app you use, like Signal? Should the government shut that down or ban it too? I have a feeling these calls to regulate platforms don’t extend to platforms actually used by commenters, they just want certain platforms they don’t use shut down and don’t care how much the law is bent to make it happen, as long as the law isn’t stretched for things they do like.

crtasm
14h ago
1 reply
Knowing facilitation. Facebook knows about specific users, it's not a case of statistics.
twen_ty
12h ago
This. I've reported scammers so many times in Facebook, it's so obvious but obviously it's not a priority for them.
rfrey
11h ago
This is solved with humans. Mens Rea is usually required for successful prosecution. A taxi driver who takes a fare to a bank, who then robs the bank, is not prosecuted. A getaway driver is.
knuppar
14h ago
Nah I'd feel pretty okay with more regulation. In your two examples predictable crimes happened in these platforms. An airline should most definitely be liable to enable that, just like they are liable for letting people without visas boarding a flight. Signal should also be liable for enabling a crime, but realistically all they could do in an investigation is give e2e encryption logs with some timestamps.
dragonwriter
14h ago
1 reply
Corporate crimes can and sometimes do go to criminal court (PG&E, for instance, has convicted of 84 counts of involuntary manslaughter for the 2018 Camp Fire, obstruction and various criminal pipeline safety violations in the 2010 San Bruno pipeline explosion, and various other crimes at other times), but aside from fines most criminal punishments don’t apply to corporations. You can’t imprison a corporation as such, nor can you execute it except metaphorically. So, ultimately, that’s largely just a higher standard of proof route to fines than civil court (though probation restrictions are also a thing.)
vlovich123
13h ago
2 replies
You can prosecute and imprison officers and/or the board. A corporation isn’t a magical immunity shield for them - for some reason prosecutors have shied away from piercing the corporate veil.
dragonwriter
12h ago
> You can prosecute and imprison officers and/or the board.

Right, that's just normal individual criminal prosecution; it doesn't require prosecuting the corporation.

Of course, it's possible for the corporation to be guilty of a crime without any individual officer or board member being guilty.

> A corporation isn’t a magical immunity shield for them - for some reason prosecutors have shied away from piercing the corporate veil.

Piercing the corporate veil is holding shareholders liable for certain debts (including criminal or civil judgements) of the corporation. It has nothing directly to do with criminal prosecution of corporate officers or board members for crimes committed in the context of the corporation (though there are certainly cases where both things are relevant to the same circumstances.)

tpmoney
10h ago
Imagine that prosecutors don’t pierce the corporate veil for public companies often because “DA charges 87 year old grandmother with stake in Evil Corp in her pension fund with manslaughter, local union members brace for additional charges against members” doesn’t make for good headlines or good justice either.
parineum
12h ago
The entire point of corporate personhood is to be able to hold corporations liable for their actions.
benoau
15h ago
Exactly. And same for games for children that somehow don't detect pedophiles spending $100s and $1000s to lure children. And same for the platforms taking immense fees from Meta and such games that are suspiciously unaware of what's going on.
llbbdd
14h ago
Only among the terminally unserious
dragonwriter
14h ago
Charter revocation is, I think, technically on the books in every state, but its not used for variety of reasons, one of which is because while it destroys the corporate entity, it mostly punishes the people least responsible for any wrongdoing (it can sometimes be accompanied by real punishment for the responsible actors, but those are separate processes that doesn’t require charter revocation, such as individual criminal prosecution or civil process that ends with fines, being barred from serving as a corporate officer, etc.)
blactuary
15h ago
2 replies
We have vote with our dollars/attention and stop using their products. Including pressuring our friends and family to stop using them.
binarymax
15h ago
2 replies
Has that ever really worked? And considering meta has billions of users on not just Facebook, but also WhatsApp and instagram, I’m skeptical. I know people who hate meta, but can’t shake instagram.
armchairhacker
13h ago
1 reply
It protects you and your friends+family from the negative effects of using Meta platforms.
Fargren
11h ago
It does not. Social media platforms have had massive societal impact. From language, to social movements, to election results, social media has had effects, positive or negative, that can't be avoided by just not using them.
blactuary
14h ago
Then we are well and truly cooked, if we are so addicted to a specific photo-sharing platform that we will let this abuse continue
tjpnz
14h ago
1 reply
When my kids were born I told my family I wouldn't be posting their pictures on any Meta owned platform. That was all I needed to move the family group, photos etc. to another app.
ares623
13h ago
Which app did you move to?
Aurornis
15h ago
14 replies
> But what is actually being done about it?

Serious question: What exactly do you want to see done? I mean real specifics, not just the angry mob pitchfork calls for corporate death penalty or throwing Mark Zuckerberg in jail.

dkdcio
15h ago
3 replies
ban digital advertisement at a federal level and 95% of the underlying problems are solved at the incentive level
justapassenger
14h ago
2 replies
We can also solve global warming problems by banning oil, coal and cows, and solve hunger by banning having kids.
Aurornis
14h ago
2 replies
“Just ban everything I don’t like as long as it won’t impact anything I do like” is a frequent take on HN these days.

Then when states start doing things like adding ID requirements for websites it’s shock and rage as the consequences of banning things (even for under 18s) encounter the realities of what happens when you “just ban” things.

opan
14h ago
1 reply
I think we can separate the banning of things which affect personal freedom from the rest. Like if oil were "banned", I'm imagining it's not illegal to possess oil, but rather oil companies wouldn't be able to drill it up and sell it anymore. A bit like fazing out asbestos. The ordinary people with asbestos tiles in their basement don't get into trouble, but new house builds can't/won't use that tile anymore.

ID requirements seem like the main burden is being put on ordinary people instead of corporations, and by extension seems clearly bad.

Aurornis
13h ago
2 replies
> Like if oil were "banned", I'm imagining it's not illegal to possess oil, but rather oil companies wouldn't be able to drill it up and sell it anymore.

What does that have to do with anything?

It doesn’t matter where you ban it, if you turn off oil overnight a lot of people are left stranded from their jobs, sectors of the economy collapse, unemployment becomes out of control.

Banning things like this is just fantasy talk that only makes sense to people who can’t imagine consequences or think they don’t care. I guarantee you would change your mind very quickly about banning oil overnight as soon as the consequence became obvious.

fzeroracer
11h ago
1 reply
I'm curious: Where do you put the line? For example, leaded gas improved car performance and arguably key to economic performance. But it was also incredibly neurotoxic and damaging to society. Do you believe banning it was a bad idea because it resulted in a lot of people losing their jobs?
warkdarrior
6h ago
1 reply
> Do you believe banning [leaded gas] was a bad idea because it resulted in a lot of people losing their jobs?

Who lost their job when leaded gas was banned? A web search did not give me any examples.

fzeroracer
4h ago
The Ethyl Corporation primarily, they had to quickly diversify and adjust their business model as a result of the US phase out of tetraethyllead. They managed to stem some of the bleeding by simply just...selling the rest to other countries before they instituted their own restrictions on leaded gas (which tells you how ethically sound said business was) but this was a massive change at the time considering just about every vehicle used leaded gas.
squigz
12h ago
Who suggested "turning oil off overnight"? What does that even mean?

GP (and I) have given you several examples of stuff society learned was harmful and then phased out with regulations/legislation. No, it didn't and does not happen overnight.

Why are you acting in such bad faith, trying to disregard people you don't agree with as "not being able to imagine consequences"?

terminalshort
12h ago
It really has turned into a bitter losers bitch fest in here.
opan
14h ago
I was on board until the end. If we don't have kids, we're wiping ourselves out even faster than with climate change. I also wonder with oil if we'd need it for some things still, though maybe it's fine if it's made from something else. Gasoline has some obvious alternatives in most areas, but oil seems to be more than fuel. It's also a lubricant.
vincnetas
14h ago
1 reply
There is a substantial opposing force to that "US$790 billion ad market for 2024"
dkdcio
13h ago
yep! it’d be hard, but we’re already at most people nodding their head when you say “social media is addictive, detrimental to individual mental health, and overall negative for society”

you just got to get enough people to nod at “…and this is caused by the underlying incentives from digital advertisement” then to “and the most effective course of action is to ban digital advertisement”

I truly don’t believe it’s a big leap, especially after a few more years of all this

Aurornis
14h ago
2 replies
> ban digital advertisement at a federal level

This is what I meant by angry mob pitchfork ideas. This isn’t a real idea, it’s just rage venting.

It’s also wrong, as anyone familiar with the problems in pay-to-play social video games for kids, which are not ad supported, can tell you. These platforms have just as many problems if not more, yet advertising has nothing to do with it. I bet you could charge $10/month for Instagram and the same social problems would exist. It’s a silly suggestion.

squigz
14h ago
1 reply
Banning advertisement seemed to work for smoking.

https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/early/2025/01/22/tc-2...

Why do you think it would be ineffective here?

I'm also curious on how you think we might tackle these issues.

Aurornis
14h ago
1 reply
The parent comment called for banning all advertising, not for banning ads promoting social media platforms.

They don’t want anyone to be able to advertise anything. Not even your local contractors trying to advertise their businesses that you want to find, because that’s advertising.

The tobacco ad ban isn’t relevant to what was claimed.

squigz
12h ago
> The parent comment called for banning all advertising, not for banning ads promoting social media platforms.

This wasn't my reading of it, but it does appear that's what GP meant. I don't agree with that. Even so, if you were interested in having a good faith discussion about solutions here, you might have responded to both interpretations.

You may consider this me putting forth the suggestion as an answer to your question, if you must.

dkdcio
14h ago
1 reply
literally the opposite of a pitchfork idea; quite simple, relatively easy to implement, and immediately effective. incentives from advertising is the underlying issue with the addictive nature of these platforms (and much more)
Aurornis
14h ago
3 replies
> literally the opposite of a pitchfork idea

The mere fact that commenters think banning advertising is a simple and realistic idea, without any constitutional road blocks or practical objections, is what I mean when I say these comment sections are just angry bloviating with unrealistic expectations.

If you think banning all advertising is “simple” then I don’t know what to say, but there isn’t a real conversation here.

dkdcio
14h ago
2 replies
so is it a pitchfork idea? I want Mark’s head? or it’s impractical? you’ve changed your apprehension to my idea twice in two comments

constitutional roadblock…to banning digital advertisement? please do explain!

I didn’t claim it’s easy to get it done in the real world, but it’s not a reactive/vindictive pitchfork idea. it’s really not that hard, if people wanted it we’ve banned plenty of things at the federal level in this country over the years (the hard part is of course people realizing how detrimental digital advertising is)

it’s a simple solution that’s very effective. obviously any large-scale change, to fix a large-scale problem, is not “simple” to implement, but it’s also not fucking rocket science on this one mate

you’re clearly not having a conversation in good faith. you asked, I answered, I’m done with this

Aurornis
14h ago
1 reply
I’ve not changed anything, I was asking for realistic suggestions. You’re throwing out unrealistic suggestions.

Why stop there? Why not just shut down the whole internet? Simple and effective. Ban cell phones. Simple and effective.

These are just silly ways of thinking about the world.

dkdcio
14h ago
1 reply
you’re just doing ad hominems and strawmans. I’m not suggesting banning anything other than digital advertisement. you’re not open to having a productive discussion about it, just misdirection and whataboutism

please stop ascribing intent I do not have and words I did not say in your juvenile attempt to win an argument

p.s. still would love to hear your constitutional argument against it! banning digital advertisement at the federal level is not unrealistic and if you've actually given it the thought you’re pretending to and still reach that conclusion, I do have an ad hominem to throw back at you

Aurornis
13h ago
> p.s. still would love to hear your constitutional argument against it!

You don’t need to hear my argument against it. The fact that advertising your services is free speech is well established. It’s a major challenge for movements like those trying to tackle pharmaceutical advertising.

Also, if you can’t see how I’ve been addressing your arguments and you think it’s all ad hominem then I don’t think there’s any real conversation to be had here. Between all the downvotes you’re collecting and the weird attempts to ignore everything I say and pretend it’s ad hominem as a defensive tactic, this is pure trolling at this point.

Supermancho
6h ago
> so is it a pitchfork idea?

What constitutes an advertisement is not a simple proposition. eg Is a paragraph describing some facts (phrased carefully) about a product or company an advertisement?

To what effect speech would have to be controlled to enforce this, is unthinkable. While some handwaving is necessary, as anyone can agree (since even the simplest legislation would be corrupted by the US political class), "banning advertising" is not a practical goal.

ChrisMarshallNY
13h ago
2 replies
Just FYI. For a very long time, strong alcohol ads were banned on TV, and the same with tobacco.

I don't watch regular TV, anymore, so I don't know if it still is in place.

Mentioning "banning advertising" on HN is bound to draw downvotes. A significant number of HN members make money directly, or indirectly, from digital advertising.

It's like walking into a mosque, and demanding they allow drinking.

Won't end well.

fn-mote
12h ago
1 reply
In this case, the suggestion of banning advertising is drawing downvotes from me because I see it as politically unrealistic.

At least in my state, there isn’t even a ban on advertising online gambling!! It is quite a stretch to think we could move from there to banning any kind of advertising.

It has nothing to do with the fact that a bunch of HN readers make money from ads. I don’t.

cycomanic
11h ago
Somewhat meta question, do you believe that down voting opinions we don't like is a good way of engaging with one another on HN?

I wish we could discuss the issue here, and instead would have liked to hear from you why you think it is a pitically unrealistic proposal, and what your criteria is for seeming something politically unrealistic.

integralid
11h ago
There's a large difference between banning strong alcohol ads, and instantly collapsing a whole huge advertisement economy (that indirectly funds most of the free things people take for granted).

Either I misunderstand something or I'm baffled how anyone can consider that easy.

flag_fagger
13h ago
> The mere fact that commenters think banning advertising is a simple and realistic idea, without any constitutional road blocks

Of course not, clearly you just need a captured congress and an EO. Can’t be too hard to find a reason to turn Trump against Zuckerberg.

wyre
15h ago
1 reply
Larger fines, more robust methods for Meta to keep children off their platforms, more robust methods to stop the spread of propaganda and spam on their platforms, for Meta to start prioritizing connection between others instead of attention.
loosescrews
13h ago
1 reply
If you want a company to do something, you do need to ensure that the fine is bigger than the amount of money they made or will make by doing the thing you are trying to discourage. You need there to be a real downside. I don't think any of the fines that have been discussed are anywhere close to the levels that I am talking about.
nandomrumber
11h ago
Don’t corporate fines often come with requirements that the company also discontinue certain activities, start certain other ones, and be able to prove this or that to a regulator?
slg
13h ago
6 replies
Amend Section 230 so that it does not apply to content that is served algorithmically. Social media companies can either allow us to select what content we want to see by giving us a chronological feed of the people/topics we follow or they can serve us content according to some algorithm designed to keep us on their platform longer. The former is neutral and deserves protection, but the latter is editorial. Once they take on that editorial role of deciding what content we see, they should become liable for the content they put in front of us.
Manuel_D
12h ago
5 replies
So Hacker News should lose section 230 protection?

Because the content served here isn't served in chronological order. The front page takes votes into account and displays hotter posts higher in the feed.

sleight42
12h ago
1 reply
And there's also moderator control?

Yup. Accountable.

Manuel_D
12h ago
1 reply
So to be clear, anything other than a 4chan-like unmoderated chronological feed results in loss of section 230 protection?

Heck, even 4chan wouldn't qualify, because despite considerably looser content rules they still actually do perform moderation.

sokoloff
6h ago
[delayed]
slg
12h ago
4 replies
Technically sorting by timestamp is an "algorithm" too, so I was just speaking informally rather than drafting the exact language of a piece of legislation. I would define the categories as algorithms determined by direct proactive user decisions (following, upvoting, etc) versus algorithms that are determined by other factors. Basically it should always be clear why you're being served what you're being served, either because the user chose to see it or because everyone is seeing it. No more nebulous black box algorithms that give ever user an experience individually designed to keep them on the platform.

This will still impact HN because of stuff like the flame war downranker they use here. However, that doesn't automatically mean HN loses Section 230 protection. HN could respond by simplifying its ranking algorithm.

Manuel_D
11h ago
1 reply
So a simple "most viewed in last month" page would trigger a loss of protection? Because that ranking is determined by number of views, rather than a proactive user decision like upvoting.
slg
11h ago
1 reply
>So a simple "most viewed in last month" page would trigger a loss of protection?

The key word there is "page". I have no problem with news.ycombinator.com/active, but that is a page that a user must proactively seek out. It's not the default or even possible to make it the default. Every time a user visits it, it is because they decided to visit it. The page is also the same for everyone who visits it.

Manuel_D
10h ago
To be clear, even the front page of Hacker News is not just a simple question of upvotes. Views, comments, time since posting, political content down ranking, etc. all at a factor in the ordering of posts.
rafabulsing
11h ago
2 replies
I think the best way to put it is, users with the same user picked settings should see the same things, in the same order.

That's a given on HackerNews, as there's only one frontpage. On Reddit that would be, users subscribed to the same subreddits would always see the same things on their frontpages. Same as users on YouTube subscribed to the same channels, users on Facebook who liked the same pages, and so on.

The real problem starts when the algorithm takes into account implicit user actions. E.g., two users are subscribed to the same channels, and both click on the same video. User A watches the whole video, user B leaves halfway through. If the algorithm takes that into account, now user A will see different suggestions than user B.

That's what gets the ball rolling into hyper specialized endless feeds which tend to push you into extremes, as small signals will end up being amplified without the user ever taking an explicit action other than clicking or not suggestions in the feed.

As long as every signal the algorithm takes into account is either a global state (user votes, total watch time, etc), or something the user explicitly and proactively has stated is their preference, I think that would be enough to curb most of the problems with algorithmic feeds.

Users could still manually configure feeds that provide hyper personalized, hyper specific, and hyper addictive content. But I bet the vast majority of users would never go beyond picking 1 specific sport, 2 personal hobbies and 3 genres of music they're interested in and calling it a day. Really, most would probably never even go that far. That's the reason platforms all converged on using those implicit signals, after all: they work much better than the user's explicit signals (if your ultimate goal is maximizing user retention/addiction, and you don't care at all about the collateral damage resulting from that).

slg
11h ago
1 reply
Yes, you said it better than me. If you know the user's choices, you should be able to reproduce what that user sees.
Manuel_D
10h ago
2 replies
But Meta's content ranking would conform to this too: in theory a user that had the exact same friends, is a member of the exact same groups, had the exact same watch history, etc. would be served the same content. Although I'm pretty sure there's at least some degree of randomization, but putting that aside it remains unclear how you're constructing a set of criteria that does Hacker News, and plenty of other sites but not Meta.
rafabulsing
10h ago
1 reply
Even that, I don't think is entirely true. I'm pretty sure they use signals as implicit as how long you took to scroll past an autoplaying video, or if you even hovered your mouse pointer over the video but ultimately didn't click on it.

Same with friends, even if you have the exact same friends, if you message friend A more than friend B, and this otherwise identical account does the opposite, than the recommendation engine will give you different friend-related suggestions.

Then there's geolocation data, connection type/speeds, OS and browser type, account name (which, if they are real names such as on Facebook, can be used to infer age, race, etc), and many others, which can also be taken into account for further tailoring suggestions.

You can say that, oh, but some automated system that sent the exact same signals on all these fronts would end up with the same recommendations, which I guess is probably true, but it's definitely not reasonable. No two (human) users would ever be able to achieve such state for any extended period of time.

That's why we are arguing that only explicit individual actions should be allowed into these systems. You can maybe argue what would count as an explicit action. You mention adding friends, I don't think that should count as an explicit action for changing your content feed, but I can see that being debated.

Maybe the ultimate solution could be legislation requiring that any action that influences recommendation engines to be explicitly labeled as such (similar to how advertising needs to be labeled), and maybe require at least a confirmation prompt, instead of working with a single click. Then platforms would be incentivized to ask as little as possible, as otherwise confirming every single action would become a bit vexing.

Manuel_D
10h ago
> Even that, I don't think is entirely true. I'm pretty sure they use signals as implicit as how long you took to scroll past an autoplaying video,

And? These are still user's choices. They choose long long to view videos or scroll past them.

slg
10h ago
1 reply
>had the exact same watch history

Watching the content that is being served to you is a passive decision. It's totally different from clicking a button that says you want to see specific content in the future. You show me something that enrages me, I might watch it, but I'll never click a button saying "show me more stuff that enrages me". It's the platform taking advantage of human psychology and that is a huge part of what I want to stop.

>it remains unclear how you're constructing a set of criteria that does Hacker News, and plenty of other sites but not Meta.

I already said "This will still impact HN because of stuff like the flame war downranker...". I don't know this and the other comment seem to be implying that I think HN is perfect and untouchable. My proposal would force HN to make a choice on whether to change or lose 230 protections. I'm fine with that.

Manuel_D
10h ago
It's still unclear what choice Hacker News and other sites will have to make to retain section 230 protection in your proposed solution.

Again, something like counting the number of views in a video is, in your framing, not an active choice on the part of user. So simply counting views and and floating popular content to the top of a page sounds like it'd trigger loss section 230 protections.

jefftk
5h ago
> I think the best way to put it is, users with the same user picked settings should see the same things, in the same order. That's a given on HackerNews, as there's only one frontpage.

Are you sure? The algorithm isn't public, but putting a tiny fraction of "nearly ready for the frontpage" posts on the front page for randomly selected users would be a good way to get more votes on them without subjecting everyone to /new

terminalshort
4h ago
But what makes this neutral vs editorial? The definition there has nothing to do with whether it is personalized or universal content selection.
BrenBarn
10h ago
Another possibility would be to somehow incorporate the possibility of publishing the algorithm and providing some kind of "under the hood" view that reveals to people what determined what they're seeing. Part of the issue currently is that everything is opaque. If Facebook could not change their algorithm without some of kind of public registration process, well, it might not make things better but it might make it get worse a bit slower.
ryandrake
10h ago
3 replies
This is an unpopular opinion here, but I think in general the whole "immunity for third-party content" thing in 230 was a big mistake overall. If you're a web site that exercises editorial control over the content you publish (such as moderating, manually curating, algorithmically curating, demoting or promoting individual contents, and so on), then you have already shown that you are the ones controlling the content that gets published, not end users. So you should take responsibility for what you publish. You shouldn't be able to hide behind "But it was a third party end user who gave it to me!" You've shown (by your moderation practices) that you are the final say in what gets posted, not your users. So you should stand behind the content that you are specifically allowing.

If a web site makes a good faith effort to moderate things away that could get them in trouble, then they shouldn't get in trouble. And if they have a policy of not moderating or curating, then they should be treated like a dumb pipe, like an ISP. They shouldn't be able to have their cake (exercise editorial control) and eat it too (enjoy liability protection over what they publish).

SoftTalker
6h ago
1 reply
I’d go farther and say that any content presented to the public should be exempt from protection. If it’s between individuals (like email) then the email provider is a dumb pipe. If it’s a post on a public website the owner of the site should be ultimately responsible for it. Yes that means reviewing everything on your site before publishing it. This is what publishers in the age of print have always had to do.
terminalshort
4h ago
I don't want a law that requires a gatekeeper for communication between members of the public.
Manuel_D
7h ago
Moderating and ranking content is distinct from editorial control. Editorial control refers to editing the actual contents of posts. Sites that exercise editorial control are liable for their edits. For instance if a user posts "Joe Smith is not a criminal" and the website operators delete the word "not", then the company can be held liable for defaming Joe Smith. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230#Application_and_li...
bostik
10h ago
The thing that's missing is the difference between a unsolicited external content (ie. pay-for-play stuff) and directly user-supplied content.

If you're doing editorial decisions, you should be treated like a syndicator. Yep, that means vetting the ads you show, paid propaganda that you accept to publish, and generally having legal and financial liability for the outcomes.

User-supplied content needs moderation too, but with them you have to apply different standards. Prefiltering what someone else can post on your platform makes you a censor. You have to do some to prevent your system from becoming a Nazi bar or an abuse demo reel, but beyond that the users themselves should be allowed to say what they want to see and in what order of preference. Section 230 needs to protect the latter.

The thing I would have liked to see long time ago is for the platforms / syndicators to have obligation to notify their users who have been subjected to any kind of influence operations. Whether that's political pestering, black propaganda or even out-and-out "classic" advertising campaign, should make no difference.

erentz
9h ago
Can’t you just limit scope for section 230 by revenue or users?

E.g. it only applies to companies with revenue <$10m. Or services with <10,000 active users. This allows blogs and small forums to continue as is, but once you’re making meaningful money or have a meaningful user base you become responsible for what you’re publishing.

armada651
8h ago
I think the biggest problem is when we're all served a uniquely personalized feed. Everyone on Hacker News gets the same front page, but on Facebook users get one specifically tailored to them.

If Hacker News filled their front page with hate speech and self-harm tutorials there would be public outcry. But Facebook can serve that to people on their timeline and no one bats an eye, because Facebook can algorithmically serve that content only to people who engage with it.

FloorEgg
12h ago
This would be a huge step in the right direction.
worik
12h ago
They could use transparent adjustable algorithms

I would like to tweak my own feed

techblueberry
11h ago
Yeah, I wonder if the rules should basically state something like everything must be topical and you must opt in to certain topics (adult, politics, etc)People can request recommendations but they must be requested no accidental pro-Ana content. If you want to allow hate speech fine, but people have to opt in to every offensive category/slur explicitly.
ares623
13h ago
That’s the first reasonable take I’ve seen on this. Thanks for explaining it, I will use it for offline discussions on the subject. It’s been hard to explain.
parineum
12h ago
Chronological is an algorithm
__MatrixMan__
12h ago
1 reply
Other shareholders in jail also.

If my dog bites somebody, I'm on the hook. It should be no different with companies.

We have to create incentives to not invest in troublesome companies. Fines are inadequate, they incentivize buying shares in troublesome companies and then selling them before the harm comes to light.

mitthrowaway2
10h ago
3 replies
Where will you find a jail big enough to simultaneously imprison everyone who invested in S&P 500?
paulddraper
10h ago
Thanks, I have the same question.
__MatrixMan__
7h ago
No you just go after the top four or five.
bdangubic
10h ago
just 500?
knuppar
13h ago
> angry mob pitchfork calls

> corporate death penalty

I don't know man these don't seem very specific. From your whole comment I do agree Mark should be in jail

worik
12h ago
> Serious question: What exactly do you want to see done?

Confiscate their wealth

fakedang
9h ago
For one, I'd like the EU to use this as evidence to straight up ban Meta apps. If countries can ban TikTok, why not extend the same privilege to Meta?

But then again, the EU are a bunch of vacuous chicken shits incapable of pulling their heads out of their arses, never mind safeguarding their own children.

Drupon
9h ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020%E2%80%932021_Xi_Jinping_A...
GOD_Over_Djinn
11h ago
> throwing Mark Zuckerberg in jail.

…why not?

Refreeze5224
2h ago
Why is the corporate death penalty or Zuckerberg in jail reduced to angry mob ideas? I think both are valid responses to the social harms that Facebook and social media generally have caused.
tehjoker
11h ago
Why not? Those are effective ideas, it’s just impractical because our political system is so insulated from public input.
bluefirebrand
11h ago
I think with the harm that these companies are doing, the angry pitchfork mobs are a serious suggestion and not just hyperbole anymore

Keep in mind that not very long ago some random person assassinated an insurance CEO and many people's reaction was along the lines of "awesome, that fat cat got what he deserved"

Don't underestimate how much of society absolutely loathes the upper class right now.

I would bet that many people are one layoff away from calling for execs to get much worse than jail

flag_fagger
12h ago
Isn’t this what we have RICO for?

> she was shocked to learn that the company had a “17x” strike policy for accounts that reportedly engaged in the “trafficking of humans for sex.”

There’s no way in hell this isn’t just tacitly incentivized the facilitation of trafficking activities through the site.

BrenBarn
10h ago
I don't really get why corporate death penalty and Zuck in jail is not a good idea. It might not be the best idea, but I think it would absolutely be better than what we have now. Even a random-chainsaw-esque destruction of Facebook, Google, Amazon, and Apple would be better than what we have now.
kiba
14h ago
They're monopolies. Break them up, heavily regulate, or tax their economic rent privileges.

Georgism gave a good lenses on these kind of issue. All the sudden, late stage capitalism starts looking like monopolies.

nalekberov
15h ago
For them these fines are just cost of doing business. Apparently politicians don't care too, for them imposing fines is all about bringing extra money from time to time.
webdoodle
15h ago
They aren't going to stop because LifeLog was as Darpa project before they found a private stoog to build it for the military. Remember it's only dystopian to spy on every aspect of a persons life, if YOUR THE GOVERNMENT. Private entities in the U.S. basically can do anything they want, especially now when they can rent a President too pardon it away.
ThinkBeat
7h ago
For a while I worked for a company that was doing some shady and unethical things, but just within the law.

I took em a while to understand how things worked and when I did I found a different job.

Now this enterprise I left, could never have done what they did it was not for the developers that made it possible.

When we talk about the giants on social media, it it us, the developers who make it possible for them to do what they do.

If you are frustrated about how they are not being stopped from doing what they do, encourage people to leave. They money is great, but doe sit make it worth it?

From the other side, let us say that the US shut down Meta and the rest of the social media beasts, how many developers would be out on the street?

diego_moita
12h ago
Where? In the U.S.? Forget it. The U.S. is a plutocracy; any resemblance to democracy is just make-up.

In the EU? They might get there, but anytime the EU acts on something, it will take decades of talking.

In the rest of the world? Only China is willing and capable to face American plutocrats. Everyone else is scared of them.

kspacewalk2
15h ago
Specifically when it comes to children, lots of jurisdictions are enacting actual non-bullshit age verification to ensure children aren't on social media. In my opinion this is real, substantive change.
nccn67
11h ago
Its basically like the history of money before banks got regulated and central banks emerged to regulate money printing. In this case its all about Attention which is functioning exactly like currency.
chad_c
7h ago
Capital is orders of magnitude more powerful than labor. Until that changes, this story will be repeated.
pksebben
8h ago
At the surface, it's an antitrust issue (the scale of Meta doesn't have the capacity to behave better, so it doesn't). This, like so many other things, can be traced back to a broken system of governance on a root level.

Our system of incentives, operating within a system of governmental authority baked in an age where gunpowder was the new hotness, leads to a place where the movement of individual bits of law or policy don't matter. The forces at work will roll back whatever you do to make the social situation better, if they are antithetical to the interests of capital. Fix healthcare, and the insurance companies will find ways to twist it to their profit. Fix housing, and the banks and real estate developers will find ways to charge rent anyway.

The coupling between decision making and the vox populi is weak and must be strengthened. The coupling between decision making and capital is strong and must be broken. Unless we can accomplish either, any change we make is cosmetic.

I think what we need is a dissolution of representatives in favor of a more direct form of democracy, but most dismiss this as looney/impossible. I'm inclined to agree about the impossibility but that just kind of lands us back at 'what the hell do we do about it'.

Ranked choice is a good start, perhaps. Might not 'fix it' but maybe it's a foot in the door.

loloquwowndueo
15h ago
1 reply
Is it the same as this basically? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46019817
macintux
15h ago
Yes. I've flagged this post, hopefully it'll be merged.
blaufast
14h ago
1 reply
So much of this audience already knows the job is to collect comprehensive analytics and never run the analyses on your product’s externalities.

to be obvious enough to downplay, it must be impossible to miss while looking the other way. To be impossible to miss, it must be inextricably linked to the profits.

dalka
14h ago
3 replies
It's even more egregious in this case because Meta's employees were turning a blind eye to child sexual exploitation that they knew fine well their work was enabling.

Maybe those fat bonuses and generous stock options wiped away the feelings of guilt, if these Silicon Valley sociopaths even felt any in the first place.

olelele
8h ago
Similar to roblox debate raging now no?
blaufast
12h ago
We’re all just trying to get our nut.
fn-mote
12h ago
> You could incur 16 violations for prostitution and sexual solicitation

So although this is being spun as “trafficking”, that doesn’t seem accurate.

This classification sounds like it includes selling “your own services”.

ta9000
13h ago
1 reply
I mean, duh. They’re this generation’s cigarettes. Employees of Meta should be ashamed of themselves.

Edit: Meta employees, downvoting this comment won’t absolve you of your involvement in the largest child abuse organization we’ve seen yet. Look what your own company said about what it’s doing to teenage girls.

rvz
9h ago
They don't care. Grifters need to grift.
foofoo12
13h ago
1 reply
> 17x strike policy for accounts that reportedly engaged in the “trafficking of humans for sex.”

Yep. You can engage in sexually trafficking people 16 times with a warning. 17th is just too much dude.

What sort of a deranged psychopath comes up with these rules?

foofoo12
8h ago
I can see from voting that this comment is highly controversial. It's actively being downvoted. Make of that what you like.
Aeroi
11h ago
1 reply
The business model is misaligned with human's wellbeing. Everything can be traced back to this very problem.
MattRix
11h ago
This is true but it’s important to still blame the humans making specific harmful decisions as well.
brrNoBhmt
10h ago
1 reply
we'll milk teens like cows and we can't wait to stuff them into tiny little boxes, hooked up to and logged into our VR worlds where we serve all their needs while they serve ours. nothing sexual, there's places for that and we're not the types. we monitor our employees closely and can say that with certainty.

the current phase of social media is basically the scraping of minds. we throw hundreds of thousands of narrowly defined contexts at them, in different states and in between them. our systems learn, assimilate, adapt.

the world is going up in flames. we didn't do that. and we'd try to change it but we have a lot of data. it can't be done.

we've seen the good, the bad and the ugly. and we don't drink cheap milk. the food of the cows we get our milk from costs more than the compounded wealth of all graduates of an average European university at the end of their 30s and their health is better monitored, too. all for one glass of milk.

my first sentence was a provocation.

your teens will be fine. worry about their environment, not us. we know we lie in court. and you know why. because they kindly ask us to. they have friends and friends of friends who have been up our asses from day one. you think we know a lot? your intelligence services know a lot more. your local administrations and teachers conspire against your teens more often than you would like to know. some guys in your police likely know, too. as do your journalists and TV channels. it's more or less on a need to know, serve to know basis.

you think big tech is the threat? think again.

A/N: mostly gibberish, since I have no idea what I'm talking about but you're all wielding advanced tools and you're networked. you get it. I could kindly ask you to stop babbling. but without leverage nobody benefits.

brrNoBhmt
6h ago
ok, I was mostly serious. let's think this through: dafuq are you pros doing?
pengaru
13h ago
Corporation prioritizes profits over social harm, news at 11.

You won't want to miss this breaking story - water is wet.

sidcool
14h ago
Another report. Sadly nothing will come out of it. 5 years down the line there will be another smoking gun, accusing Meta of selling DNA data to advertisers illegally. Nada. Nothing will happen.
mlmonkey
15h ago
Meta misled the public?!?!? You don't say!

At this point nothing surprises me from Meta.

diogenescynic
12h ago
Social media is going to be seen to future generations the way we currently see tobacco and alcohol. Look at what social media has done to the wellbeing of teen girls. There's been a dramatic decline in the mental health of teen girls. All those filters, OF fans, stars with eating disorders (just look at the Wicked cast), is literally killing teen girls with social anxiety.
tap-snap-or-nap
6h ago
All governments need to classify recommendation based algo driven media content delivery injected within subscriptions as gambling.
catigula
14h ago
Focusing on meta doing this is fine, but misses the mark.

Every tech company is harming the public for profits.

ChrisArchitect
13h ago
[dupe] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46019817
concinds
15h ago
Check the front page before splitting an existing front-page discussion.
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