Back to Home10/27/2025, 12:43:32 AM

ICE Will Use AI to Surveil Social Media

327 points
414 comments

Mood

heated

Sentiment

negative

Category

politics

Key topics

surveillance

immigration

AI

Debate intensity85/100

ICE plans to use AI for social media surveillance, sparking concerns about privacy, government overreach, and the potential for abuse of power.

Snapshot generated from the HN discussion

Discussion Activity

Very active discussion

First comment

46m

Peak period

150

Day 1

Avg / period

53.3

Comment distribution160 data points

Based on 160 loaded comments

Key moments

  1. 01Story posted

    10/27/2025, 12:43:32 AM

    23d ago

    Step 01
  2. 02First comment

    10/27/2025, 1:29:02 AM

    46m after posting

    Step 02
  3. 03Peak activity

    150 comments in Day 1

    Hottest window of the conversation

    Step 03
  4. 04Latest activity

    10/29/2025, 11:36:49 PM

    20d ago

    Step 04

Generating AI Summary...

Analyzing up to 500 comments to identify key contributors and discussion patterns

Discussion (414 comments)
Showing 160 comments of 414
Mistletoe
23d ago
2 replies
Now we begin to see the true reason for all the AI push.

>You had to live – did live, from habit that became instinct – in the assumption that every sound you made was overheard, and, except in darkness, every moment scrutinized.

– George Orwell, 1984

mouse_
23d ago
1 reply
they can see with our wifi now so that darkness part is accounted for

:(

derwiki
23d ago
Let the Ethernet Revolution begin!
codedokode
23d ago
9 replies
Let me play a devil's advocate. Are you (and Orwell) unhappy that people breaking the law get punished? Even if you merely cross the road in the wrong place, you deserve a punishment to the maximum extent specified by the law, don't you? It doesn't matter if you break the law in the darkness or not.
unethical_ban
23d ago
1 reply
No, never in human society have laws been perfectly enforceable. Laws, and society, are shaped by that fact.

The concept of perfectly, uniformly and constantly emotion every law in the books is completely absurd. We need to figure out how to deal with that.

unethical_ban
22d ago
s/emotion/enforcing/
tsimionescu
23d ago
1 reply
The whole point of 1984 is to show how perfect surveillance allows the perfect enforcement of unjust laws, allowing complete control of Big Brother over every aspect of the lives of the country's citizens. The same cameras that can be used to fine you for illegally crossing the street can be used to find and punish you for illegally speaking out against the regime.

This is the danger of surveillance tech: you install it for purportedly good reasons, but once the power to monitor everyone to this level exists, it becomes very easy to start pushing towards more control, both legally and illegally.

0dayz
23d ago
1984 doesn't have one "point" it is trying to show, your point is the most recent point to get popularized after the Snowden leaks.

For instance 1984 also is very clear about how this system is engineered for the survival of the inner party, effectively immortal.

BriggyDwiggs42
23d ago
Why would the law have any necessary relation to what is right?
50208
23d ago
Lord no.
rsynnott
22d ago
This went _just great_ in East Germany, which was the last place to seriously try this approach (fortunately the Stasi didn't have modern surveillance tech, but they did quite enough damage with what they had).
ndsipa_pomu
22d ago
There's plenty of laws that aren't fit for purpose and are immoral, so any kind of automatic system that enforces punishments without any oversight (e.g. by jury) is going to lead to abuse. (It used to be illegal to help an escaping slave, so just imagine if a system determined that you didn't do enough to help with re-capturing a slave and sent you into slavery as punishment)
clipsy
23d ago
> Let me play a devil's advocate.

No. Either stand by your opinion or don't waste our time on it.

Paradigm2020
23d ago
There are no cars in sight.

Intention of the law > letter of the law.

themafia
23d ago
> Even if you merely cross the road in the wrong place, you deserve a punishment to the maximum extent specified by the law, don't you?

It depends _why_ you did it. This is the precise reason why we have courts and juries. Jury nullification exists for a reason. Laws are not meant to be a rote set of rules and punishments to dole out mechanically.

abuani
23d ago
3 replies
There will be a court case where some bit of evidence is going to be similar to:

Ice Agents: "Is <name> here illegally?" AI prompt: "you're absolutely right!"

viraptor
23d ago
1 reply
Not sure why they'd bother, since we're in the "random kidnappings are the MO" territory already, regardless of the citizenship status.
reactordev
23d ago
This. It’s more about using AI to do facial recognition or similar things to detect individuals en masse and flag them for the gulag.
jpk
23d ago
1 reply
If only. If ICE arrests and deports someone without due process, there is no court case.
golem14
22d ago
But the AI vote will be used as a fig leaf so they don't even have to pretend to mete out justice. "AI said it, it must be true" will soon become a mantra (even though most people here know how wrong it can be and how often it actually is).

I hear that lazy LEOs now use AI to write police reports. Noice. And the AI can trivially show up for hearings.

heavyset_go
23d ago
They'd quickly cancel the contract with any supplier that doesn't give them the carte blanche and obfuscation of responsibility they want.

Just like other ML and big data LEO projects in the past, assume the use of AI is to greenlight what they already want to do and would like a fig leaf of justification for from a computer.

FridayoLeary
23d ago
7 replies
So far 2 million illegal immigrants have left the US. Mass surveillance and enforcement technology is dismal to think about, though NSA and google have been doing it for years. I'm watching from my perspective in the UK where there is growing fury over the gross incompetence, negligence and mishandling of a mass immigration crisis which is so stupid it beggars belief. The various law enforcement agencies in the us don't cooperate that closely, so there's less scope for this to be abused against american citizens unlike in the UK.
bakies
23d ago
7 replies
Is mass immigration really a crisis? Like people are upset here in the US too but I don't even know why. There's a lot of immigrants in my state but they're not upsetting me.
Refreeze5224
23d ago
1 reply
Absolutely not. They are an essential part of modern American life, and anyone against it either doesn't understand that, or does it for racist reasons.
travisgriggs
23d ago
I observe the following. ICE has not caused a huge step change in people leaving the country. If you look at the stats since Reagan (https://infographicsite.com/infographic/deportations-under-u...), it wanders up and down and is (imo) complicated.

What has changed is the “messaging” around the topic. This is very common with the Trump administration. When all is said and done, when exceptions are made/bought, and the courts and others get involved, it ends up not being much of a needle move. BUT, what is different every time is the messaging. And I have come to believe, that is what the actual goal is to some degree. The real goal is to send a message to people who are immigrants OR (and this is important) look like immigrants. It’s a message of “remember your place” and “be grateful you get to be here”. It’s the same type of tactics that gets sent to Asian communities, black communities, women, etc.

I am white. I am a male. I am 55. I oscillate between despondently sad and disgusted.

kelnos
23d ago
4 replies
> Is mass immigration really a crisis?

Not even a little bit. No one is taking jobs away from citizens or legal immigrants (locals don't want those jobs, either at all, or at the wages offered), rampant "migrant crime" is a myth created and perpetuated by the right (immigrants commit crime at lower rates than citizens), and to top it off, the American economy depends on many of these migrant workers in order to function (often in exploitative ways; explicitly allowing and supporting this type of migration would make things safer for everyone).

It's othering and racism, plain and simple.

I'm not saying we should just open the floodgates and let anyone and everyone in, and I'm not saying we shouldn't deport non-citizens who commit violent crime, but the "crisis" is entirely manufactured.

jonway
23d ago
1 reply
>the "crisis" is entirely manufactured.

It sure is, the US government has been underfunding the judicial body responsible for adjudicating asylum claims for years and years. As a result there are indeed people here in status limbo.

Wether or not they should be granted some kind of residency is kind of irrelevant, politicians are happy for this to be a problem they can use.

Even now, they aren’t increasing the rate of process, they’re just blowing the cash on mass surveillance.

20after4
23d ago
And mass incarceration.
mixmastamyk
23d ago
2 replies
Employed privilege. Lots of folks would like to work in construction but haven’t been able to for a while. I know several that retired early in poverty.

I would appreciate a job in construction or at a restaurant for example. Teenagers would benefit from such jobs as well. Not available.

Your absolute assertions are myopic at best.

dashundchen
23d ago
1 reply
Who or what is stopping you from getting a job at a restaurant?

Doesn't seem to be a problem with any motivated person I know.

mixmastamyk
23d ago
Last one gave me a hint, too many applicants. Most don’t bother.
FireBeyond
23d ago
1 reply
And yet multiple studies have shown that when jobs are offered to Americans that involve labor (farm, construction, food industry), at those wages, then there are generally few to near zero applicants.

There are other reasonings (prevailing wage, location, etc.), but likewise, your "absolute assertion" that undocumented workers have been taking job opportunities from you is also not entirely ... absolute.

tsimionescu
23d ago
1 reply
The key point is "at those wages". The overall assumption in the economy is that it's good and proper for low-skilled jobs to be very low paying, despite otherwise being very unattractive. As long as people are unwilling to pay the proper cost for hard labor, they'll keep hitting this problem of local people not willing to do the work for a pittance. Then, when they circumvent the local workers, they'll be surprised that local workers are discontent.
FireBeyond
22d ago
I do agree with that. The same as with the trope about McDonalds, etc. being "starter jobs" for teenagers, etc., and that's why it's okay for them to not pay a liveable wage, etc., which has no origin in fact (re the minimum wage law) and only in Republican ideology.
modo_mario
23d ago
> No one is taking jobs away from citizens or legal immigrants (locals don't want those jobs, either at all, or at the wages offered)

Sorry but i absolutely despise this argument as someone who did the job that "locals don't want" and knew others that did. It's cheap and very right wing classism by the privileged. Essentially only the last bit is true and the last bit is true because there is a cheap alternative that doesn't involve much unionization either.

Mind you I'm in western europe and the other arguments don't hold up either here but that first one is universally shit.

tsimionescu
23d ago
I think the job analysis is overly simplistic. The reality is that worker migration from poorer countries to richer ones is a huge low wage problem. Instead of allowing low-skilled labor to pay better in order to attract workers who expect better conditions, you keep the wages fixed and import workers for whom even the bad life you're offering is better than their current life.

Of course, this doesn't mean that allowing 0 immigration in is the right solution, or preventing immigrants from working. And I should also point out that, generally, US leaders have the least amount of problem with this aspect of immigration - even now, Trump has instructed ICE not to go for deporting agricultural and tourism workers in any mass numbers.

add-sub-mul-div
23d ago
1 reply
Roughly half the population responds to unfamiliar people and ideas with curiosity, and the other half with fear. The latter half are easily manipulated into nurturing the fear. Everything rolls up to this.
UberFly
23d ago
What's your definition of "unfamiliar"? I just want people vetted before they're allowed into my house to live along-side my family? Is that unreasonable?
outside1234
23d ago
1 reply
Not only is it not a crisis but many nations NEED immigration because their natality rates are so low. Including the UK.
modo_mario
23d ago
2 replies
Why would they need them because of that? Must every nations population perpetually go up? Do you know how insane that sounds?

Every argument that starts like this ends up defending a pyramid scheme.

outside1234
21d ago
1 reply
Pension plans depend on populations being stable and not living longer and longer. Most of Europe have a rate below 2.0 (replacement rate) and people are living longer and longer.

So either you increase the retirement age significantly or you have to expand the base.

modo_mario
21d ago
In which case you have to do that indefinitely and it's a pyramid scheme. Also most non eu migration doesn't end up being a net positive for those govs within the first generation (or even second depending). Far from actually and these migrants are not immune to aging then they end up requiring pensions too.

And all of this to serve dying generations when those younger than me starting out get ever increasingly shafted.

Here in Belgium pension plans existed that did not work like that. Then the socialist raided these funds and the future generations were going to pay for those pensions. My family's criticism was that they could only do that once and they were right.

I don't tie this issue to socialists tho. 2 decades ago the liberals(european, right wing) did the same to the railways who had a separate pension fund and more recently yet another party suggested doing the same for a 3rd pillar of selfemployed people.

bakies
23d ago
I think it's a capitalism thing to need more people
hereme888
23d ago
1 reply
It was. Not since Trump took office. It's still a crisis in Europe though.
bakies
23d ago
1 reply
I'm more asking why immigration is a "crisis"?
hereme888
22d ago
1 reply
Uncontrolled influx of millions - mostly with poor finances and very different cultural backgrounds and values - strain a nation's resources, infrastructure, and social cohesion. It exacerbates housing shortages, burdens public services like healthcare, and contributes to economic friction amid existing downturns. It also poses risks to national identity and security, as we are now experiences in many countries who allowed this to happen, as opposed to countries that enforced legal immigration. It complicates integration and social stability. It's unfair to legal immigrants. This is why sovereign states implement rigorous and dynamic immigration controls and capacity limits based on the nation's ability at the time. There has to be sustainable absorption. Countries are not homeless shelters or free handouts; they are the result of blood and tears of the patriots who fought and died to create, defend, and build that nation. Every nation has its values, and it's not the right choice for everyone. China is definitely not a country for me, nor are the CCP's values acceptable to American culture. In short, vet whoever comes into your house, and don't let people sneak in through the backdoor.
bakies
21d ago
2 replies
> different cultural backgrounds and values; social cohesion; national identity; integration and social stability; nation has its values; not the right choice for everyone; American culture

I like my cultured friends. USA is a melting pot, not a white-man-country. This is all xenophobia.

> poor finances

sounds right for asylum seekers

> nation's resources, infrastructure, housing shortages, burdens public services like healthcare, and contributes to economic friction[??] amid existing downturns,

sounds like policy problems; and these are the priorities of the people i vote for too, none of this has to do with immigrants.

> Countries are not homeless shelters or free handouts

no, this is exactly what i expect my country (government) to handle

> Uncontrolled influx of millions

this is pretty tightly controlled, you can find the data from the census and see that the population is not at all fluctuating and very linear. Should be trivial to plan ahead about how many people are in the country. https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/usa/uni...

> This is why sovereign states implement rigorous and dynamic immigration controls and capacity limits based on the nation's ability at the time. There has to be sustainable absorption. vet whoever comes into your house

this is true, and I dont believe its not happening. i was asking what is happening that's a crisis. Trump's policies are _mass deportation_. They are extreme. Legal immigrants, are having visas revoked without reason, and even green card holders are being arrested without cause. Violations of the 4th amendment. Immigrants are arrested at court houses, where the vetting takes place, you know, by _judges_.

> they are the result of blood and tears of the patriots who fought and died to create, defend, and build that nation.

like my immigrant grandpop, achieved the american dream

bakies
21d ago
1 reply
> admire the white race more than any other, even my own.

oh thanks for clarifying which type of scum you are

hereme888
20d ago
> oh thanks for clarifying which type of scum you are

The type that is cultured, educated, honors parents, and builds a traditional family unit, rooted in truth, logic, nature, God, and common sense. The type that admires the renaissance and western civilization. The type that has no problems being thankful for great civilizations, like Israel, Rome, Greece, and the amazing USA.

In other words, everything you hate.

hereme888
21d ago
> .... you're xenophobic.

No, I'm a legal, darker-skinned immigrant with lots of culture. Btw, I respect and admire the white race more than any other, even my own.

> mass migration is tightly controlled

Because of Trump. I remember months when Biden wouldn't bat an eye at 7-8 million who entered illegally in a single month.

> poor asylum seekers...

I'm an actual asylum seeker because the Venezuelan government contracted kidnappers to try to take out my family (I'm not getting into details). My family has integrity, works hard, was a good match for the country, and we were accepted. The US was NOT responsible for taking us in. I am thankful, not entitled.

> immigrant grandpa.

Good, and I'm sure he wouldn't have agreed to let strangers into the country without vetting.

NoMoreNicksLeft
23d ago
3 replies
>There's a lot of immigrants in my state but they're not upsetting me.

You might not think that, but have you ever complained about housing prices? That food at the grocery store costs more than it did a few years ago? The price of consumer goods in general?

Well, you're not buying those things. You're bidding on them. And the more people there are, here, the higher those prices will be bid upwards.

mindslight
23d ago
1 reply
> That food at the grocery store costs more than it did a few years ago?

> the more people there are, here, the higher those prices will be bid upwards

Who do you think is picking most of that food? And if the wages for those jobs went up to an American living wage, what do you think would happen to the price of food even with a bit lower demand?

I know it's all too easy and comforting to throw out knee-jerk comments cheerleading for government power, but at least try applying some basic analysis to what you write.

NoMoreNicksLeft
22d ago
1 reply
>Who do you think is picking most of that food?

Your mistake is in believing that even if I answered this question with the answer you consider correct, that this would change my position.

>And if the wages for those jobs went up to an American living wage, what do you think would happen to the price of food even with a bit lower demand?

"I like to exploit immigrants and underpay them, because my out-of-season fruit will be too high for my smoothy frappucinos!" Silly things leftists say, haha.

>I know it's all too easy and comforting to throw out knee-jerk comments cheerleading for government power,

I'm not especially a big fan of government power. But I live in a country being held hostage by lunatic ideologues who think non-citizens should have the absolute right to live here, but only because they hope to stack the vote against their political opponents. So there's not really that many options left. Things will have to get far worse before they can get any better.

mindslight
22d ago
> that this would change my position

I'm not asking you to change your position, but rather to be honest about the effects of it.

> "I like to exploit immigrants and underpay them, because my out-of-season fruit will be too high for my smoothy frappucinos!"

I did not say anything of the sort, rather I acknowledged the current reality. One can also say "I want farm workers to be system legible, primarily Americans, and paid a living wage, even though it will make grocery prices go up". That's a consistent position. We can have honest discussions about those things. I don't think anybody actually likes the status quo.

> Silly things leftists say, haha

I know fascists have defined everything short of gushing praise for Dear Leader as the rAdIcAl lEfT, but I'm actually a libertarian.

> I live in a country being held hostage by lunatic ideologues who think non-citizens should have the absolute right to live here

Please explain how it's being "held hostage" when the party in power is enacting the exact opposite.

> So there's not really that many options left. Things will have to get far worse before they can get any better.

Sorry no, there are plenty of other options to institute the immigration policy you want here - which wouldn't require adding to the surveillance pantopticon, further empowering a domestic military, or trampling the Constitution and our natural rights.

So what we've actually got is a second issue of how those things are being carried out, supposedly in the name of doing something about immigration. But given how wholly anti-liberty and anti-American those actions are, and how there are already policy floaters on relaxing the hardline stance for "critical" industries reliant on cheap illegal labor, it begs the question of whether the immigration topic is even the main thrust here - or whether it's simply a pretext for autocratic authoritarian power for power's sake.

> I'm not especially a big fan of government power

Sorry, but yes you are. You're shunning the entire idea of limited constitutional government and inalienable constitutional/natural rights, seemingly because you like these particular results of crass authoritarianism. That's statism 101.

insane_dreamer
23d ago
1 reply
That's not how food prices works.

High housing prices is a complex mix of underbuilding due to zoning laws, companies buying up housing stock to rent, and (a few years ago) very low interest rates. One thing that is _not_ a factor is immigrants, because they are at the bottom of the social pile and usually can't get mortgages to buy houses.

NoMoreNicksLeft
22d ago
>That's not how food prices works.

It very much is how all goods work, unfortunately. Food (except grain) doesn't travel or store well. If 100 million people left North America tomorrow, North America wouldn't start shipping the food for 100 million people to them whereever they went. Pretending otherwise might help you maintain faith in whatever religion you have that demands it be true, I suppose, but it's economically illiterate to claim otherwise.

>High housing prices is a complex mix of underbuilding

Or it's a simple answer of over-immigrating.

>because they are at the bottom of the social pile and usually can't get mortgages to buy houses.

Are they sleeping in ditches? No. They live somewhere. Because they live in those places, those places aren't available for non-immigrants to live in. It's really simple. They rent apartments, do they not? When demand outstrips supply, prices rise. When demand for apartments rise, even the price of houses goes up, because these things can substitute for one another to some degree.

bakies
23d ago
I've come to blame nimby for housing and Trump for food.
reactordev
23d ago
The older you are, the more likely you’ll see more people and say “get off my lawn” when really, you were busy hanging plates when the rest of the world was having babies…

That’s really what happened. The population doubled in 15 years and people moved (people always move). It’s just more people now. So naturally you’ll see more immigrants.

danparsonson
23d ago
2 replies
A perceived mass immigration crisis, which has little to do with reality and much more to do with gas bags stoking fear and spreading nonsense.

Here's reality: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/immigration-system-...

FridayoLeary
23d ago
1 reply
Thanks for that. Here's a more up to date link https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/immigration-system-....

I reject that. There is a steadily worsening crisis, even the current labour government have acknowledged that pledging to take lots of action against it, both now and during the election campaign. Specifically small boat crossings, of which more then 43,000 have already arrived this year. There is not a single politician in this country who doesn't admit that there is a serious problem.

jonway
23d ago
Don’t you have a coast guard?

This is a skill issue.

themafia
23d ago
1 reply
Are the lives of immigrants better? Are we importing citizens or slaves? Why are we not interested in improving conditions in their home country? Shouldn't we focus on that first?
danparsonson
22d ago
Your rhetorical questions don't constitute an argument so forgive me if I misrepresent you but what I think you're saying is:

1. Conditions in the UK might not be good enough, so we should prevent people from immigrating, for their own good, and 2. Fixing problems that create refugees is more important and therefore another reason we should prevent people from immigrating.

To which I say

1. That's a reason we should clean our own house, so we create a safe environment for people looking to come to the UK, and 2. That's a non sequitur at best, and honestly callous; you should try fleeing from war and persecution, and then see how you would feel about returning home to wait for a few more years while 'things get sorted out back home'.

Again, correct me if I have misrepresented your implied argument.

epistasis
23d ago
1 reply
> So far 2 million illegal immigrants have left the US.

Why would anyone believe this? It's such a strange thing to say, and one would have to be an absolute fool to believe it.

jdiff
23d ago
1 reply
The people I work with believe the government, the current administration is funding immigrants. Providing them with handlers who are paid to assist them, open up credit cards in their own names on behalf of non-citizens who otherwise couldn't.

Multiple of them believe this. One mentioned it, after she left I turned to my other coworker to say "that was some crazy stuff she was saying" only to be met with, "Hey, it's happening. A lot of federal money goes missing and this is exactly where it's going."

It's a complete disconnect from reality that's malleable to any form desired.

FireBeyond
23d ago
1 reply
When ICE raided Tyson Chicken (a few years ago), multiple workers provided documentation from Tyson telling them how to stay under the radar and how to fill out paperwork if they were undocumented. There's definitely a very large effort in undocumented labor... and little interest in rocking the boat of those employers.
jdiff
22d ago
Yes. The USA runs on undocumented work in many ways. This is a far, far, far (etc) cry from government-funded citizens escorting around and signing up for lines of credit and otherwise paying the way for undocumented workers.
wsatb
23d ago
3 replies
> So far 2 million illegal immigrants have left the US.

The Trump administration loves gaudy numbers like this. Common sense tells you that's a lot of movement in too short of time. Until they release evidence of these numbers, please do not spread this misinformation.

sky2224
23d ago
1 reply
Is it really that much movement though?

Like, say we assume it's true: There are 340 million people in the US. That's less than 1% of the current population leaving. I really doubt anybody would notice much of a difference.

sigwinch
22d ago
1 reply
Averaging 40,000 per state, that’s 50 large universities worth of opened-up housing.
sky2224
22d ago
1 reply
Fair point. Guess my poor number sense is really showing haha.
sigwinch
22d ago
Don’t be so hard on yourself, truly. What if every US state lost the equivalent of one Burlington, VT? How much would you expect traffic, housing, lines at the grocery store, to change? It’s not easy, even though 2M people is over the total number of men drafted into Vietnam.
actionfromafar
23d ago
He also got "20 trillion dollars".
epistasis
23d ago
Indeed, it's a complete lie and fabrication, and those who repeat it are bearing false witness. Take the report it came from, click on any "supporting" link, such as:

> A recent study from the United Nations reported that President Trump’s immigration policies led to a 97% reduction in illegal aliens heading northbound to the U.S. from Central America.

And you find that the document they link does not support their assertion, and in face the "97%" refers to:

> The migrants who returned during the period were primarily Venezuelan nationals, accounting for 97% of the documented southward flow, with most heading to neighboring Colombia.

It's comically bad deception, only people who continuously traffic in lies all day long would even publish something like this.

neither_color
23d ago
Different populists have different ideal numbers for how many people they want to purge. Some want 10 million, some want 20-50 million going decades back and reversing whatever laws allowed the "wrong kind" of even legal immigrants to come here in the first place.

I think more governments around the world are catching on to the idea that your majority population can excuse a large amount of economic mismanagement and bad geopolitical strategy if you blame foreigners who arrived after your decline started.

If a satisfactory amount of foreigners are removed, the technology will still be there and the defense contractors will still need contracts. If there are no viable foreign adversaries at that point, then another domestic target will be needed.

FireBeyond
23d ago
> So far 2 million illegal immigrants have left the US.

According to the current administration, who have a ... not exactly sterling ... reputation for accuracy and honesty in reporting.

mjbale116
23d ago
> have left the US

They did not "leave" the US, they were deported without due process.

> though NSA and google have been doing it for years

That does not make it less dismal

> less scope for this to be abused against american citizens unlike in the UK

There are agencies in the US that do as they please without needing to cooperate with anyone. Not sure how you arrived in that conclusion.

cyberax
23d ago
1 reply
> $5.7 million contract for AI-driven social media surveillance

Yeah, that would just about cover the cost of a pizza party in the AI world. You also can look at "Zignal Labs". The website looks like 100% snakeoil.

I have no doubt that ICE would love to have some AI-based software to detect illegal immigrants, but I doubt it's more effective than just regular datamining.

jdiff
23d ago
It doesn't need to be effective, it needs to be a computerized excuse to go after more people. Whenever computers are used to target people, the output is always given far too much weight. Recently we had guns drawn on a child because a computer vision algorithm classified his doritos as a gun with a low confidence score, with explicit advice to only investigate further and not assume correctness. But that child still had multiple guns trained on them.

Take that, apply it to here, and it's clear that effectiveness would actually be counterproductive.

stuckindoors
23d ago
2 replies
Enforcement on businesses hiring non legal workers - gets the root cause. Without fixing that we are just playing wack a mole - people will still venture to the US since jobs exist and ICE is better than what ever crap they are coming from. Sure you may dissuade a few on the margins.

We are not fixing the root cause here even if you believe that immigration is bad for the country. It’s just a farce.

Nextgrid
23d ago
13 replies
Companies that employ undocumented workers at scale have significant political power and deporting them en-masse would shock many industries, so this won’t happen.

The recent ICE shenanigans (which don’t get me wrong - are awful and badly executed) are just performative bullshit to please the voter base. In fact I’d argue they are intentionally executed badly to attract media attention so they can all say they are being tough on immigrants.

mattmaroon
23d ago
1 reply
I think it’s more to scare immigrants with pleasing the base being icing on the cake. Stephen Miller is genuinely anti-immigrant. And anecdotally, it is working. Ask any flight attendant on an international route.

They want people to stop coming here, and the threat of being sent to some torture camp in the third world won’t deter a Haitian (whose daily life already meets that description) but it will deter people from less atrocious locations.

istajeer242
23d ago
4 replies
> Stephen Miller is genuinely anti-immigrant.

I don't know much about him but aren't his grand parents Belarusians who came over to the US?

pengaru
23d ago
4 replies
As an american, unless you're descendant from native americans, your ancestors are immigrants... I don't think it's worth pointing out. Most anti-immigration americans obviously aren't native americans.

pulling up the ladder behind you isn't a new concept

wahnfrieden
23d ago
2 replies
As Vincent Gallo put it recently re: federal debt:

> The USA can tolerate one of these two things. A system of no welfare, no social services, no socialized medicine, food or housing with open borders. OR. No open boarders and highly limited, highly controlled, assimilating immigration policy. We cannot have both. When the USA had unlimited immigration over 100 years ago, we did not have Government supporting immigrants with welfare, medical services, housing, food etc.

I don't agree with Mr. Gallo here - I'm just sharing what a popular RW response is on this.

tbossanova
23d ago
1 reply
What does “no open borders” mean here? I’ve seen this term used but I don’t quite get it. Surely it can’t mean completely closing the borders? I.e. literally nobody can enter the country, ever.
wmil
23d ago
2 replies
No tolerance for people trying to live in the country without going through the legal process.

Public policy discussions always get boiled down to some simple wording that isn't strictly accurate.

tbossanova
20d ago
Literally no tolerance? I always figured that like everything else, there’s a cost/benefit analysis to be done, and you try and tweak enforcement levels to the point where it gives decent results without costing the earth. No law is enforced with literally no tolerance in practice.
wahnfrieden
22d ago
Legal immigration is also under heavy scrutiny with the "no open borders" folks. It is not as simple and law-abiding as you make it out to be.
WarOnPrivacy
23d ago
> I'm just sharing what a popular RW response is on this.

The policy in my red state is to spend public funds to treat unliked immigrants as harshly as possible, deny social welfare to citizens in need and prioritize gov resources for admin loyalists. At least it is now that courts are sufficiently captured.

johnnyanmac
23d ago
In my ancestor's defense, they didn't get much choice on emmigrating here. It'd be truly poetic if they tried to forcefully deport me because they can no longer use me as free labor on the fields.
NoMoreNicksLeft
23d ago
>As an american, unless you're descendant from native americans, your ancestors are immigrants.

How'd that work out for those native americans again? Maybe I'm a little reluctant to let things play out the way it did for them.

snickerbockers
23d ago
Ive always been ashamed of all the genocidal massacres and forced relocations we did to the native americans but its not in any way accurate to compare establishing a colony to immigration; they came here to create a new society not to live amongst the existing civilizations. The way they did so at the expense of the civilizations already living here is abhorrent and shameful but its also in no way comparable to illegal immigration.

To the extent that it is comparable we would be absolutely justified in regulating immigration because the implication would be that the same thing that we did to the native americans is going to happen to us.

Its also not in any way reasonable to use the sins of the distant ancestor to delegitimize the nation's right to self-determination. Even if i accept your premise that my ancestors are comparable to immigrants i myself am not. If the argument is that the nation has no rights to control its own borders because that would constitute some sort of "generational hypocrisy" that would also mean we have an obligation to accommodate slavery and genocide because our ancestors committed and benefitted from both of those.

ryan_lane
23d ago
6 replies
Japan now has Kimi Onoda as Minister in Charge of Foreign Nationals and Immigration, and she's an immigrant herself, but her stance on immigrants is pretty hardline.

These people aren't anti-immigrant because of issues with immigration. They're anti-immigrant because they're hateful.

johnnyanmac
23d ago
3 replies
Japan is truly impressive on taking an anti-immigration stance because they have numbers already that would be the dream of other countries pushing such perspectives. Off the top of my head there's 0.3% immigration.

It's truly saddening that such a stance can still work when it's likely the average citizen will not encounter an immigrant in their day to day life. a million immigrants is not threatening the jobs of 300m Japanese people.

goykasi
23d ago
1 reply
That is mostly correct; immigrants account for about 3% of a total 123mil population. Your point does stand, but we are quite visible in Japan -- especially in Tokyo.

You are correct that we do not threaten jobs either. A large majority of the foreign population is working low/unskilled jobs. Generally, the native population is not wanting those jobs.

wahnfrieden
23d ago
Those undesirable jobs can also be highly visible. Maybe the most frequent place Japanese notice visible minority immigrants is at convenience stores. So maybe it makes the population feel overrepresented. I see RWers post frequently about convenience store workers at least.
mitthrowaway2
23d ago
1 reply
In Japan, the popular sentiment on immigration tends to be grouped together with tourists and temporary foreign workers as a single category: foreigners. This is perhaps understandable but unfortunate, because tourists often are very visible and tend to make a bad impression, as most haven't studied the language or learned the numerous behaviour expectations. Bad experiences with tourists creates hostility towards immigrants, who are few and mostly do work hard to integrate and behave well.
C6JEsQeQa5fCjE
22d ago
1 reply
> tourists often are very visible and tend to make a bad impression, as most haven't studied the language or learned the numerous behaviour expectations

Tourists are short-term visitors who are there exclusively to spend their money in Japan and leave it with its citizens. If the Japanese do not want that because the tourists don't come fully prepared for living in Japan, then you should just deny tourist entries to the country. It would be win-win for everyone, because there are plenty of other countries who would gladly take those tourists instead.

mitthrowaway2
22d ago
I'm sure the Sanseito party would be happy to add your proposal to their platform. I doubt the people who work in the tourism industry are voting for them anyway, and the people who benefit indirectly from tourism probably aren't aware enough of the dependency to care about it.
snickerbockers
22d ago
1 reply
Does the 0.3% figure include the massive US military presence? IDK if they count as "immigrants" under the strict definition of the term but most people would consider them immigrants and that might be where a lot of the anti-immigrant sentiment comes from. I would be very surprised if the total amount of immigrants in Japan when including foreign armed services and their family members is a mere 3/10 of a percent.

They get blamed for a lot of crime; idk if that's true or not but it probably is, in part because American culture has less respect for authority, in part because American culture has more respect for individual liberties, and in part because any time you have a large enclave of foreigners (regardless of where they come from or which host nation they're in) they always end up committing more crime than the native population. They also get blamed for driving up prices in the real-estate market (this is definitely true, the US Navy owns 20% of Okinawa).

Blaming "immigrants" instead of specifically blaming the US military is also very convenient for both the US and Japanese government because both governments are largely in-favor of continuing the status quo so it's not surprising that politicians would obfuscate the source of the problem by blaming immigrants as a whole.

khuey
22d ago
The entire US military presence in Japan (service members, dependents, and contractors) is around 100k people, or roughly 0.08% of Japan's population.
enieslobby
23d ago
1 reply
Please provide evidence for Kimi Onoda being "hateful". She is 100% culturally Japanese, and even speaks English with an accent. This is different from immigrants who don't know the basic cultural norms of a country and have integration issues.
forgotoldacc
23d ago
1 reply
She had American citizenship until recently. She's overcompensating by larping as a native when she isn't. She was intentionally picked to be a token foreigner to lead the anti-immigration policy of the new administration, just like the US's regime can say "You can't call us far right! That Stephen Miller guy's Jewish!" They love their token minorities since it's an easy counterpoint that they think proves they're angels with good intentions, and unfortunately, half of any given country will completely believe a government that uses minorities for that purpose.
snickerbockers
22d ago
1 reply
So what's your point? Should minorities be excluded from government? Are individual members of minority groups not entitled to their own opinions? And are "far right" jews really that big of an anomaly?

There is definitely a phenomenon of people sometimes supporting candidates on the basis that their ethnicity won't be used to criticize their policies but they're addressing a complaint that would be made otherwise. It also denies the agency of minorities by requiring them to be monolithic entities wherein all members agree with whatever you think their opinions should be. Would you really be satisfied if the entire trump administration was white Christian males over the age of 40?

One of the criticisms of the pro-life side of the abortion debate has always been that men are over-represented in the US federal government yet they're able to regulate an issue in which they are not directly effected. I don't know if you agree with this specific criticism or not but a lot of people do and I don't think it's fair to then complain about "tokenism" when somebody like Amy Coney Barrett who is immune to this argument gets appointed.

forgotoldacc
22d ago
My point was pretty clear.

Bad people aren't limited to one race or anything. But far end politicians love propping up a minority on TV because then they can have an excuse whenever they're compared to historically bad political movements.

You're the only one bringing up white Christian males here, which kind of proves my point. You seem to think that for some reason I care if a politician is white or Christian. Extremist Islamic parties love propping up Christian minorities on TV and saying they'll defend them (they won't). Right wing western parties really, really love propping up a Jewish party member because they can say "we're not Nazis!!! All Nazis hated Jews and we love them!!!" Because the average person really thinks nazism was really only about killing Jewish people, when the reality was they only got around to that after several years of other awful stuff.

The LDP is propping up their 100% foreign born, foreign citizenship politician so they can say "see? We can't be anti-foreigner because the lady controlling this is a foreigner." The optics are transparent and it's even what they're astroturfing their message on social media as. Japanese politics are all about image. They don't pick a foreigner who illegally held dual citizenship to head anti-foreigner policies by accident.

totetsu
23d ago
Rather than necessarily hateful (but not excluding that), whats happening here seems like brazen discursive manipulation for gain of political power at expense of a minority of the population. Power in Japanese society is in large part built on calculating and self serving behaviour, without any real integral morals or values.. so politicians are seeing this stuff work overseas, and know they can get away with it too now.
khuey
23d ago
> and she's an immigrant herself

Not really. Her mother is Japanese and they moved back when she was one year old.

JuniperMesos
22d ago
Seems like Onoda's situation is that she was born in the United States to a white American father and a Japanese mother, and the father abandoned the family and the mother moved back to Japan when Onoda was extremely young. So she has almost entirely grown up in Japan but technically had US citizenship because of US birthright citizenship laws until she deliberately gave it up; and of course is visibly half-white. It wouldn't surprise me if part of her personal anti-immigration stance was grounded in anger and sadness about her non-Japanese father abandoning her and her mom.
Fnoord
23d ago
We had Dilan Yeşilgöz here in NL, minister of justice and leader of the liberal party VVD (right wing). She's an immigrant, born in Ankara, of Kurdish ancestry. She lied about immigrant subsequent travelers (which she is herself!) being a huge issue, and the government fell because of this issue. Turns out it is 400 people per year. I don't know what it is. Self-hate? Rules for thee, not for me?
Geezus_42
23d ago
Hey now, we don't need no fancy logic 'round here. /s
blurbleblurble
23d ago
4 replies
You're telling yourself what you want to hear. I guarantee you these guys are dead serious, and they've recently gotten a huge flush of cash.
dpkirchner
23d ago
2 replies
The grunts are surely dead serious, but the bosses? Nah. If they were they'd be sending execs to prison. Anything less is pointless if you truly want to solve the problem.
clipsy
23d ago
2 replies
You're assuming that the thing they're "serious" about is ending illegal immigration.
blurbleblurble
23d ago
1 reply
The bosses are serious about making the US an authoritarian ethno state.
deaux
23d ago
A MAGA state first and foremost. The hierarchy is "white MAGA > non-white MAGA > white silent > non-white silent > white anti-MAGA > non-white anti-MAGA". Will they eventually come for everyone but the first group? Very likely, but there's always a priority ordering. I'll leave it to the proper historians to decide how similar this is to the state they're using as their main inspiration.
naijaboiler
22d ago
The thing they are series about is racism, and having power to terrorize anyone they deem “undesirable”, a group which may one day include you
blurbleblurble
23d ago
2 replies
"truly solve the problem" ???
wombatpm
23d ago
1 reply
I believe Stephen Miller want a final solution to the immigration problem.
blurbleblurble
23d ago
Oh yes and he's not acting alone. The merry band of misanthropes have all but written out their intentions explicitly. And it doesn't appear just to be immigrants they wish this stuff on.

People have been worrying about "ecofascism" well then why aren't you concerned about an administration whose policy is measles outbreaks for the misinformed of their constituency? Whose health minister is a rich environmental lawyer who just so happens to be a huge fan of letting disease rip?

dpkirchner
22d ago
I should have said "truly solved their stated problem", or "truly achieve the results they claim they want".
jasonboyd
23d ago
6 replies
I agree they are deadly serious, but to the parent commenter’s point, why wander the streets grabbing random people when they could go straight to the employers? They would have far more success targeting farms, construction sites, restaurant kitchens, etc.

The answer is the business owners are their constituents. They cannot afford to piss them off. If they lose their support the wheels will fall off this farcical performance.

I grew up in Florida, and I remember the sugar plantation “raids” they used to stage. They were a complete dog and pony show. They would announce them in advance so the plantations could hide most of their undocumented workers. Then they would round up just enough people for the photo op to prove they were being “tough on immigration.”

This is the same thing but on a grander and more dangerous scale.

FireBeyond
23d ago
2 replies
Not quite. You had a bunch of workers at Tyson Chicken and Hormel Foods... At Tyson, underage and other undocumented workers were complaining about OSHA type stuff... next thing, there's a raid, 900 workers rounded up. Awkward moment as many of them spoke about how Tyson knew they were undocumented, and even handed over the written instructions provided to them on how to fill out paperwork and stay under the radar if they were.

"That is outside the scope of this investigation." Nothing ever happened.

At Hormel, complaining about all sorts of strange diseases and health conditions, possibly from inhaling aerosolized pig brain all day long? Oh, look, another raid.

"Won't someone rid me of these meddlesome workers?"

Just a theory but it seems highly plausible in both these cases that the companies and ICE colluded... stage a big photo op, get rid of problematic undocumented workers and oh, hey, wouldn't you know, no plans to investigate the company?

This is also your friendly reminder that visa overstays are a misdemeanor, but for an employer, assisting or knowingly hiring undocumented workers is a felony. Tough on crime, indeed.

night862
22d ago
If you have time, can you link reporting?
netsharc
23d ago
I'm guessing the companies can make things go away by donating to someone with (R) suffixed to their name. Ha, someone's a magician, they can turn a democracy to a banana republic very quickly.

Is it (R) or (M) for MAGA.

I used to joke "Hello to the NSA analyst reading this!" when talking about "sensitive stuff" in private messages, but I guess that needs to be updated to "Hello to the LLM!"

Teever
22d ago
> why wander the streets grabbing random people when they could go straight to the employers?

Because immigration stuff isn't the primary purpose at this time. The primary purpose is to normalize a police state, to invoke feelings of fear in the general population and to build up a bigger infrastructure to do more authoritarian things.

morkalork
22d ago
>why wander the streets grabbing random people when they could go straight to the employers? They would have far more success...

"The purpose of a system is what it does", not what it claims to do. Today it looks like that purpose includes mass surveillance of social media.

fwip
23d ago
They are showing up at workplaces and getting people.

Here's one that happened near me last month: https://cnycentral.com/news/local/breakdown-ice-detains-work... - and there are more happening in other places.

tracker1
22d ago
They are targeting those locations... but they need credible reporting of wrongdoing in order to do so. Insider reporting, anonymous tips, etc. They generally don't just randomly show up at an employer without initial reporting of a crime.

For the most part, they've been targeting visa overstays by those who have been charged with and/or convicted of other crimes in the US. Not significantly different than under Obama. It's only that the visibility has been turned up to 11 along with ramped up protests and state/city sanctioned resistance in some locations.

As to the ramp-up in scale.. that's what happens when you let 5x the amount of people legally allowed entry to come into a nation in a relatively short period of time illegally. over 90% of asylum claims are invalid and fraudulent... there is almost no legitimate reason for crossing into the country outside a recognized port of entry.

I say this as someone who feels that immigration should generally be tied to "do you have a source of income and a place to stay?" at its' core... combined with a multiple of minimum wage as an income baseline with hefty employer side taxes to go along with. Arguments against doing so are very similar in my mind to having slavery... it's not okay, not good for the nation. I have similar feelings that "free trade" should only occur when similar quality of life or safety measures are in place. I'm optimistically libertarian minded, but recognize reality.

blurbleblurble
23d ago
The employers are more often white and/or more politically aligned.
johnnyanmac
23d ago
1 reply
> I guarantee you these guys are dead serious

Just because the grunts are dead serious doesn't mean the initiative is dead serious.

Even then, serious doesn't equal competent. They are still trying to deport Abrego Garcia. Spending millions in legal fees and transport to deport a single man is not pratical in the slightest.

esseph
23d ago
1 reply
It's not about practically, it's about enforcing will and punishing enemies, especially self-created ones.
johnnyanmac
23d ago
1 reply
Yes. The cruelty is the point. But that's of course not how they message it to their party.

Turns out cruelty is very expensive to maintain, though. And we certainly do not have the economy to keep accommodating the narrative as real citizens starve and lose jobs. Something's going to break.

blurbleblurble
23d ago
1 reply
Listen I'm sure there are some who are in it only for the messaging.

But you're in denial if you really think certain driven individuals in all three branches of the us government aren't dead ass serious about taking this stuff to misanthropic ends.

johnnyanmac
22d ago
We seem to be misaligned on what "serious" is in this context. Perhaps "inefficient" is a better way to phrase it. They are not concenred with effective immigration reform. But they are dead serious about being as bigoted as possible before consequences hit down down the line.

But their message isn't directly saying "spend 1 trillion dollars to be bigoted"

wombatpm
23d ago
They are serious now, but eventually Pournell’s Iron Law of Bureaucracy comes into play. Those who believe in the organization will take over from those who believe in the mission.
jonway
23d ago
1 reply
normalize adversarial face paint, make up, and apparel.

Silver linings…

Klaster_1
23d ago
Only works until that's no longer legal, see face coverage laws in various countries.
wsatb
23d ago
1 reply
Their reasoning for deploying the Texas National Guard to Chicago was because they claim a rebellion has started. They are consistently provoking citizens and lying about it. The courts have dismissed this due to the ridiculousness of it, but they continue to agitate. I don't think it's all for show, they're seeking a violent response so they can deploy the military.
votepaunchy
23d ago
Note that the courts have split on the deployment of national guard troops so the issue is destined for the Supreme Court.
drivingmenuts
23d ago
4 replies
That performance may backfire, since some of the big supporters are agriculture businesses that rely on illegal immigrants to survive. Mass deportations of the type ICE seems to want will put a lot of those businesses out of business. I'm sure someone up in Washington thinks that poor Americans will step in to fill the gaps, but when it's been tried before those assumptions failed, badly.

I've seen some conspiracy theories that RFK, Jr, et al, want to start labor camps for autistic kids and just about anyone else his bunch can get tagged as defective or deficient or whatever, but I don't think that's going to work out like someone hopes it will.

johnnyanmac
23d ago
1 reply
>when it's been tried before those assumptions failed, badly.

Turns out Americans don't want to move out to rural areas to be paid minimum wage to do hard farm labor. Who knew?

That's the only real upside to this gig economy. Their competition isn't just flipping burgers, but anyone who has a car that can sign up to an app to make some quick cash.

BobaFloutist
22d ago
Sub-minimum wage, agricultural work is exempt from minimum wage. It makes me so mad.
intended
23d ago
1 reply
Nothing will backfire.

A Reuters poll on the White House demolitions had a 63% approval for one question and a 40% approval rating for another question - from Republican voters.

As long as there exists a content economy on the right that does’t have to pay their dues to reality, you will not stop a political machine which is based upon fantasy.

The only thing that will cut through the noise is a recession, because that cannot be spun. Even then - that would just be a speed bump; eventually the recession will pass.

dboreham
23d ago
Short term pain for long term gain. Locker room economics.
SubiculumCode
23d ago
I think you'll find that ICE goes to cities, not to the tiny farm towns where most of the field workers stay at. Farmers don't want ICE screwing up harvests, and the admin wants a more visual approach that comes with focusing on cities like LA and Chicago, not places like Seville CA.
pseudalopex
22d ago
The plan is more and more exploitable temporary migrant workers evidently.[1][2]

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20251008104110/https://prospect....

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdWrHb8b-c0

sieidj184
23d ago
1 reply
The deeper purpose is to create another state-sanctioned security force that is highly associated and politically enabled to deal with ‘undesirables’ outside of normal legal process. Then include whoever is needed under the label ‘undesirable’ — see other comment about a journalist being detained and questioned
actionfromafar
23d ago
Yes - ICE is filling a similar role to what Wagner did in Russia and the brownshirts in Germany. A parallel structure which can be deployed anywhere against anyone. The concentration camp building industry is looking great.
enieslobby
23d ago
1 reply
Which companies employ undocumented workers at scale?
array_key_first
22d ago
ICE is not just performative bullshit. It's a display of authoritarian power and yet another branch of our government mobilized against the US people. As this article highlights, it's an excuse for surveillance. Of citizens, mind you.
rukuu001
23d ago
The theatre is also there for the immigrants (or whatever undesirable that's being targeted).

It has a chilling effect on what people say and do.

You'll notice the same effect in other states that have armed people who turn up unexpectedly to make people disappear.

aprilthird2021
23d ago
It's also an enormous waste of money, which this admin loves to do. Billions to Israel, $40B to Argentina, $1T+ to bomb boats in the Gulf of Mexico, waste waste waste everywhere and send the bill to the average American, whose economic prospects haven't improved
cool_man_bob
22d ago
I’ve seen Trumps buddy’s (the inhuman lawnmower) big company appear on jobs.now posting for general midlevel dev positions. These people are liars and it’s so painfully obvious.

I’ve seen more people realize this since his Trump started beefing with Massie, but they still glaze him so hard as to not offend, that it’s basically meaningless.

potato3732842
22d ago
This. It's like the environmental people going off half cocked screeching about how random petty developments needs more green space in their site plans (while invariably screeching out the other side of their mouth about how the decreased density of stuff makes it less walkable) all while the DuPont or the .gov or some university or whoever has got their engineers and lawyers and whatever to lay out exactly why the thing they're doing is "fine" even if it's worse than whatever the little guys are being prevented from doing.

You can't solve the problem at the "just regulate the employers" level because it invariably turns into a tighter regulatory capture further enriching the incumbents. Any reform will necessarily increase the competitive advantage of the current winners because they are the ones in a position to shape it.

isolay
23d ago
Not to forget they can use the performative bullshit to lay grounds for a paramilitary GeStaPo. ICE as it is already attracts all the wrong character types.
FridayoLeary
23d ago
I can't understand it. It was a huge story that hyundais entire workforce of 500 were illegals, but i have heard nothing about hyundai facing any consequences for blantantly disregarding the law. That also goes for US companies to be clear, but that was jst the first case that opened my eyes.
Sanctuary8542
23d ago
Shhhhh...they're listening

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