Back to Home10/1/2025, 6:20:41 PM

Announcing Tinker

152 points
89 comments

Mood

skeptical

Sentiment

mixed

Category

tech

Key topics

AI infrastructure

fine-tuning models

startups

Debate intensity70/100

Thinking Machines announces Tinker, a tool for fine-tuning open-source models, sparking discussion about its uniqueness, value, and the company's direction.

Snapshot generated from the HN discussion

Discussion Activity

Very active discussion

First comment

42m

Peak period

80

Day 1

Avg / period

42.5

Comment distribution85 data points

Based on 85 loaded comments

Key moments

  1. 01Story posted

    10/1/2025, 6:20:41 PM

    48d ago

    Step 01
  2. 02First comment

    10/1/2025, 7:02:26 PM

    42m after posting

    Step 02
  3. 03Peak activity

    80 comments in Day 1

    Hottest window of the conversation

    Step 03
  4. 04Latest activity

    10/3/2025, 2:45:56 PM

    47d ago

    Step 04

Generating AI Summary...

Analyzing up to 500 comments to identify key contributors and discussion patterns

Discussion (89 comments)
Showing 85 comments of 89
sh3rl0ck
48d ago
1 reply
They mention their "cookbooks" but I couldn't find them... Their blog was immensely interesting so I could see this being a good entrypoint
neilv
48d ago
3 replies
There was a famous tech company in supercomputing and AI, called "Thinking Machines", worked at by people such as Danny Hillis and even Richard Feynman.

Does this new company have some connection to that, such as some of the same people?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking_Machines_Corporation

jsnell
48d ago
1 reply
No relation AFAIK, this is Mira Murati's post-OpenAI joint.

Which makes the hero image on this page being a diagram of Danny Hillis' TinkerToy computer all the more baffling.

blast
48d ago
Probably just an homage - tipping the hat to the predecessor
palmotea
48d ago
> Does this new company have some connection to that, such as some of the same people?

Really doubt it. This "Thinking Machines" seems like an on-trend SV AI software startup, that "Thinking Machines" was a Massachusetts-based hardware company that went bankrupt 30 years ago (and whatever's left is Oracle). That "Thinking Machines" people are retiring by now.

I wonder if Sun/Oracle let the trademark lapse, because if it's still active I'd imagine this startup's gonna get sued.

staticshock
48d ago
nope, this is Mira Murati's thinking machines. she used to be the CTO of OpenAI, but started her own thing once she [I think] realized that she was missing out on the gold rush by staying there.
tinyhouse
48d ago
1 reply
This is great as we need more solutions that help people train and fine-tune models. There is a lot of open source and some companies behind some of the popular open source packages, like Unsloth, but the more the merrier, esp given that Thinking Machines has the expertise and resources to build something that last.
NitpickLawyer
48d ago
Yeah, I'm really curious about their stacked multi-tenant lora training at the same time. If this gets commoditised enough, it could be interesting to try "end of the day fine-tunes on daily conversations" and see where that leads. Or a targeted RL on "missed / rejected tasks" for an agent, after you get enough samples for a run, and so on.
Oras
48d ago
1 reply
Isn't this a feature offered by many LLM providers? What's your USP here?
aabhay
48d ago
It is? Which ones give you distributed post training of MoE LLMs?
closewith
48d ago
4 replies
The name chosen is an antiquated ethnic slur in much of the Anglosphere.
mrcwinn
48d ago
4 replies
I’ve never heard of this in my life. Isn’t tinker a verb meaning to fiddle or edit or modify in small increments? That seems like the perfect name given what the software they’re present. In any case I guess this is back to the debate: does it matter how a word is intended or does it matter how a word is received?
echelon
48d ago
3 replies
Never heard this before either.

I googled "Tinker Slur" and Gemini said this:

> The term "tinker" is a racial slur when used against Irish and Scottish Travellers and Romani people. Originally derived from the name of an itinerant profession, the word evolved into a derogatory ethnic insult with connotations of being dirty, dishonest, and criminal.

Further sources:

https://hatebase.org/vocabulary/tinker

https://www.threads.com/@yourlocaltj/post/DCbY6wMIJ7J?hl=en

TIL

Shame that people do this. It's been a salient word all my life, and it's a useful word too.

I'll keep calling myself a tinkerer.

labrador
48d ago
2 replies
I'm an American of Irish and Scottish descent with some travellers in my background. Never heard this word as a slur, only as "I like to tinker with machines." Tinker as a slur hasn't travelled off the islands of Great Britain apparently.

Edit: I'm not changing my usage of the word. I like to tinker.

closewith
48d ago
3 replies
I suspect you're just not aware of how others consider the way you choose to speak: https://archive.is/WydpC
labrador
48d ago
1 reply
I'm very aware of how I speak which is why I have a good track record of not offending people. I change with the times e.g. I no longer refer to a car transmission as a tranny. So I know tinker as a slur is archaic. I've never heard anyone use it as a slur and think it would be counter productive to revive it as one.
closewith
48d ago
1 reply
You not hearing it doesn’t make it archaic. Tinker is still thrown at Travellers in Ireland, the UK, Australia, and elsewhere. Calling it “dead” just shows you your bubble, not reality.
labrador
47d ago
1 reply
Thinking Machines Lab and I are in Silicon Valley California. Are you suggesting that we should follow your provincial rules?
closewith
47d ago
1 reply
Read back your comment and apply it to an ethnic slur common in your locality.
labrador
47d ago
We find the c-word c*nt highly offensive but that doesn't stop Australians from using it.
kgwgk
48d ago
1 reply
Interesting that you link to an article that has no issues with the word “tinker”.
overscore
48d ago
1 reply
Yes, it is, and 37 years later, it is no longer acceptable to use such terms.
kgwgk
48d ago
1 reply
On the contrary, it seems more acceptable now than 37 years ago - the “unacceptable” meaning that was already residual then (and not mentioned in the article at all!) is even more irrelevant today.
closewith
48d ago
1 reply
So you believe the slur is no longer used or something?
kgwgk
48d ago
I think it's used less than 37 years ago in that sense - and it was not much of an issue back then (at least in the US, that article doesn't mention that tinker could be considered offensive while it talks about 'wetbacks').

You believe the slur is used now more than 37 years ago or something?

echelon
48d ago
Authored by William Safire [1], who also authored the "In Event of Moon Disaster" speech [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Safire

[2] https://www.archives.gov/files/presidential-libraries/events...

goopypoop
48d ago
2 replies
your usage is fine there too.

however, "the islands of Great Britain" is offensive to the Irish

kgwgk
48d ago
It is offensive to anyone who knows that Great Britain is one island. Maybe he meant the British Isles.
labrador
48d ago
Don't I know it. My Irish grandmother hated the British, but Northern Ireland is currently British - for now.
closewith
48d ago
2 replies
The ethnic slur predates (and is the etymology of) the meaning you're familiar with.
gs17
48d ago
1 reply
Do you have a source for this? I can't find any etymology dictionary that says it doesn't come from either "tin" as in the metal or "tink" as an onomatopoeia (or a verb that refers to mending things). To be fair, they say it's uncertain, but you seem very confident about your alternative etymology.
overscore
48d ago
2 replies
The formation etymology (whether from tin or onomatopoeia) is uncertain. The part that is certain is the semantic chronology. The noun tinker was used from at least the 13th century for an itinerant mender of pots, the Travellers. By the 16th century it became a slur for Travellers.

The verb to tinker doesn’t appear until the mid-17th century, first meaning to work as a tinker and only later coming to mean what you're familiar with.

So while the root word’s sound-shape is debated, the order of senses is clear: the Traveller sense comes first, the modern “casual repair” sense comes later and was derived from it. This is the etymological order given in all sources, eg https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tinker

gs17
48d ago
1 reply
> eg https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tinker

Does this page show something different in your region? For me it doesn't say anything about what you're claiming it does outside of one "chiefly Ireland, sometimes offensive" definition. The etymology only says "Middle English tinkere", and the history explicitly states its first use as being the not-"chiefly Ireland, sometimes offensive" definition. The etymologies I was seeing show it going from "this is a word that describes a job" and branching to "this group of people does this job a lot, let's call them this word" and "fiddling with things to do anything is close enough".

I'm genuinely interested in this, I work in what's a relatively "woke" domain (education) and I've never heard a complaint about something being called "tinkerable", even from colleagues in the UK.

closewith
48d ago
1 reply
You are misreading the definition, as the itinerant mender of household utensils are Travellers.
gs17
48d ago
1 reply
Let's say you're correct. If "the etymological order given in all sources" is yours, shouldn't you be able to provide an example of that instead of one that requires assuming you're correct and reading words that aren't in the definition, while ignoring the listed etymology?
closewith
47d ago
I have, as have otgers.
kgwgk
48d ago
1 reply
> the order of senses is clear: the Traveller sense comes first, the modern “casual repair” sense comes later and was derived from it.

The order of the senses is clear but different:

The "mender of kettles, pots, pans, etc.," sense come first.

The “gipsy” sense comes later an is derived from it.

The “repair or put into shape rudely or temporarily" - and later "work imperfectly, work in an experimental or meddlesome manner; keep busy in a useless way" - sense also comes from the first one.

closewith
48d ago
1 reply
The "mender of kettles, pots, pans, etc.," refers to Travelers.
kgwgk
48d ago
1 reply
[…] is to be considered that genuine Gypsies have often been spoken of as "tinkers" (chaudronniers) on account of the occupation with which they have long been associated ; and that, although there is no known mention of "Gypsies" in the British Islands prior to the fifteenth century, there are many earlier references to "tinkers" or "tinklers," as they are called in Scotland. […] "Tinkler can be traced back to about the year 1200. Tinker and Tinkler were not uncommon titles at that time. […] All these seem to have had fixed abodes, and not to have been of the same itinerant class with which we now associate all tinkers, and which used to require the epithet 'wandering' to distinguish them." […] To the same purpose as the opinion expressed in this last sentence is Crofton's observation made elsewhere, that "all Gypsies may be pedlars, brasiers, or tinkers, but the reverse may not follow."

[ Scottish Gypsies under the Stewarts; David MacRitchie; 1894 ]

closewith
48d ago
Right, so as per your quote, the term referred to Travellers exclusively for centuries before the verb came along.

You are going to great efforts to defend your use of a slur.

chuckadams
48d ago
Meanings become obsolete. Calling someone "nice" used to mean they were stupid.
buildbot
48d ago
Interesting, Robert Jordan basically directly lifts that term for the Romani-esque tinkers in Wheel of Time.
gwbas1c
48d ago
1 reply
Almost anything can be a slur in some context.

Back in the '90s, people would say "oh he's 'special'" as a slur.

That being said, in a world like we live in today, pretty much anything you say or do will offend someone for some obscure reason that you just can't reasonably anticipate.

It's in these contexts that I think the most appropriate response is "get a life."

overscore
48d ago
1 reply
> Almost anything can be a slur in some context.

Eh, this is a very particular and long-standing racist term, and the meaning used by the authors is derived from the slur, so it's not incidental.

gwbas1c
48d ago
1 reply
This does not look like a slur: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker https://www.dictionary.com/browse/tinker

There's also rather significant modern use of "tinker": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker_(disambiguation)

It appears that you're getting stuck on "tinkers", which is mentioned in the above disambiguation page:

> Tinkers, an alternate (and often pejorative) name

Anyway, language is malleable and changes. In this case, I will again emphasize "get a life."

overscore
48d ago
Tinker was a Traveller slur long before the verb - denying that is just wilful ignorance itself. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tinker
closewith
48d ago
> does it matter how a word is intended or does it matter how a word is received?

If you apply that argument to an ethnic slur that's common where you live, you'll see that it wouldn't be a good product name in an international market.

goopypoop
48d ago
let's not sanction being niggardly when mooting intent
JumpCrisscross
48d ago
1 reply
It is. But honestly, fuck that. It has a colloquial meaning that carries none of that baggage. Instead of retiring the word, why not make the racist definition archaic?
overscore
48d ago
1 reply
The colloquial meaning carries all of that baggage. You just weren't aware.
JumpCrisscross
48d ago
> colloquial meaning carries all of that baggage. You just weren't aware

The baggage—hell, all meaning in language—is carried by awareness. We don’t consider the word hostile racist because we’re not ancient Romans facing the hostis.

Maybe there is a cause to censor the word tinker in British English. What there isn’t is censoring it in American or international English.

aeon_ai
48d ago
1 reply
Good thing it's been forgotten enough that almost nobody knows that, or cares it's the name of this company.

I think if anyone is offended by a word that is not used by anyone in that context, they're probably due for some self-reflection on what offends their sensibilities.

overscore
48d ago
1 reply
It's definitely not forgotten? What makes you think that? Commonly used in Ireland, the UK, Australia, Canada, parts of the US.

> they're probably due for some self-reflection on what offends their sensibilities.

Or maybe what they're willing to accept?

sentientslug
48d ago
You are going on a very weird crusade in this thread. Literally have never heard this in my life used as any kind of slur and here you are arguing with everyone about it.
jazzyjackson
48d ago
How much of the Anglosphere?
next_xibalba
48d ago
2 replies
This company was most recently valued at $12 billion. Tell me there's not an AI bubble.

https://www.reuters.com/technology/mira-muratis-ai-startup-t...

NitpickLawyer
48d ago
They seem to position themselves to commoditise renting shovels to use with your own data. Seems pretty bubble-safe to me.
wmf
48d ago
That's a fair valuation if they have a >10% chance of developing a frontier model. It's an excessive valuation if they just release tools to create LoRAs and such.
vin92997
48d ago
1 reply
Given that Thinking Machines has employed so many smart scientists, focusing solely on infra and fine-tuning is kind of a letdown.
babelfish
48d ago
I feel like this is what the current team excelled at at OpenAI, only makes sense that they would productize it
apcragg
48d ago
3 replies
Funny timing that they are announcing their first product days after Matt Levine highlighted their lack of a public product or direction in the Money Stuff newsletter.
ahmedfromtunis
48d ago
It's the first that came to mind when I saw the domain name but I'm sure he's not the first to point it out. So it probably is just inevitable that they'd be launching after someone has mentioned it during the last couple of hours/days.
sentientslug
48d ago
Their lack of a public product has been widely discussed for at least a month now
rotskoff
48d ago
1 reply
My research group at Stanford has been alpha testing Tinker, it's both very useful and also really technically impressive in my opinion. It's a unified framework for post-training models and it abstracts almost all of the complexity of managing these jobs across resources. That it manages to do this while also allowing a lot of algorithmic flexibility is pretty unique.
ahmedfromtunis
48d ago
1 reply
Silly question: how is it different from, say, hf's transformers and similar libraries and APIs?
stephenroller
48d ago
with hf transformers, you still need to manage GPUs
paxys
48d ago
1 reply
Interesting that their first product is an infrastructure play. Is it really so hard to set up a fine-tuning pipeline for yourself that a $12 billion startup with unlimited hype needs to be offering it? Maybe they have figured, whether correctly or not, that building AI tooling is going to be more lucrative than the AI itself.
alyxya
48d ago
1 reply
The thing about this that’s interesting to me is that it can be used as a foundation for products they or other people make that combine real time RL rewards and fine tuning to improve the model. I see a lot of potential here compared to the standard paradigm of ChatGPT wrappers that involve tweaking the prompt or harness to improve it, which is a lot more constrained.
emaadm
48d ago
OpenAI has had a fine-tuning API since GPT-3.5, and a reinforcement fine-tuning API since last year.
bastawhiz
48d ago
2 replies
Absolutely unacceptable that their TOS basically gives them unrestricted access to your datasets, as far as I read it. The terms let them use your datasets for pretty much whatever they decide they want to do with it (though they do say they would anonymize the data, which isn't especially helpful). The TOS leaves a lot of wiggle room for them to do pretty much whatever they want to the data.

I wouldn't touch this until they get serious about having real assurances that they're not going to access customer data without a real, justifiable reason. If Amazon gave themselves free reign to read S3 data it would be outrageous, this is basically the same thing.

thedevilslawyer
48d ago
2 replies
>Absolutely unacceptable Entitled much!? hold on to you pants.

They've clearly called out that organizations can contact them for their specific needs..

motbus3
48d ago
That should not be the default
bastawhiz
48d ago
Your datasets are some of your most valuable assets. How is it entitled to not want your vendor having a free for all with them? It would be entitled if they weren't going to be charging for it.
port11
47d ago
But hey, it “empowers researchers and hackers to experiment with models by giving them control over the algorithms and data”.

PR and marketing will literally write anything they can get away with. Thanks for pointing out the TOS hole.

hedayet
48d ago
1 reply
1. Can someone help me articulate what Tinker can do that Vertex AI or many others can't? (I can see access to some primitives, which is nice)

2. and more broadly: Has anyone got real lift in business metrics through fine-tuning an open model over using the flagship models from say OpenAI or Anthropic?

BoorishBears
48d ago
1 reply
Most managed finetuning offerings take your dataset, some hyperparameters, and spit out a model. Few support RL, and those that do have very limited support.

And I have gotten a real lift, in cost effectiveness and engagement (for creative writing)

QuadmasterXLII
48d ago
1 reply
What are you doing that requires RL-ing creative writing for engagement?
BoorishBears
48d ago
I don't apply RL directly to engagement (and don't think it's really possible without some insane scale of feedback)

Instead there are mechanical mistakes models make that harm engagement and are trivially verifiable (overused phrases and concepts, hitting a given target reading level, etc.)

Improving those is what improves engagement.

dlojudice
48d ago
> Tinker is a flexible API for efficiently fine-tuning open source models with LoRA.

It would be great if they offered inference from the trained model as well. Ideally pay per token.

fxtentacle
48d ago
"the Tinker API provides simple functions to compute gradients, update the weights, and sample outputs from the trained model"

It sure sounds like a PyTorch tutorial, but I believe it's yet another "AI training made slightly easier for you" start-up. But all of them seem to solve the easy problem of managing data and compute, while very few tackle the hard problem of generating good training data.

bayarearefugee
48d ago
Commonly attempting the "private beta with a waitlist" pseudo-release model (until they finally learned their lesson relatively recently) is a large part of how google fumbled the LLM ball to OpenAI and others.
dang
48d ago
Usually we want an announcement to come with more than a waitlist before doing a frontpage thread on HN, but I guess this company is high-profile enough that the post is relevant anyway?
hamonrye
48d ago
A/B testing the python scripts

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ID: 45441219Type: storyLast synced: 11/19/2025, 1:36:17 PM

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