Back to Home8/27/2025, 11:38:42 AM

F-35 pilot held 50-minute airborne conference call with engineers before crash

300 points
421 comments

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heated

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negative

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tech

Key topics

F-35 crash

military aviation

software issues

Debate intensity80/100

An F-35 fighter jet crashed after a 50-minute airborne conference call with engineers, raising questions about the plane's design and the role of technology in military aviation. The discussion highlights concerns about the F-35's reliability, cost, and the implications of its advanced automation.

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Very active discussion

First comment

14m

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152

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Comment distribution160 data points

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  1. 01Story posted

    8/27/2025, 11:38:42 AM

    84d ago

    Step 01
  2. 02First comment

    8/27/2025, 11:52:37 AM

    14m after posting

    Step 02
  3. 03Peak activity

    152 comments in Day 1

    Hottest window of the conversation

    Step 03
  4. 04Latest activity

    8/30/2025, 9:46:21 PM

    80d ago

    Step 04

Generating AI Summary...

Analyzing up to 500 comments to identify key contributors and discussion patterns

Discussion (421 comments)
Showing 160 comments of 421
greatgib
84d ago
3 replies
[flagged]
tokai
84d ago
2 replies
Not when the Danish Airforce use F35s.
nicce
84d ago
1 reply
Or Finland…
Temporary_31337
84d ago
1 reply
US can (effectively) shut down F35s remote.y
rokkamokka
84d ago
1 reply
A scary proposition considering what the US is rapidly becoming
greenavocado
84d ago
2 replies
Purchasing F35s is paying tribute to the empire so it doesn't come down on you harder with tariffs and compliance burdens. It's not meant to actually be useful.
owebmaster
84d ago
1 reply
It still did not work, tho.
greenavocado
84d ago
1 reply
It did, they could have ended up like the Swiss
brazukadev
82d ago
1 reply
What bad happened to the Swiss?
greenavocado
80d ago
Some of the worst US tariffs on Earth
guappa
84d ago
3 replies
Yeah and the tariffs are still there anyway so I don't understand why we aren't following suite and cancelling those orders.
RankingMember
84d ago
1 reply
Yep, anyone paying billions in what is effectively tribute to this admin is only playing themselves considering the stable genius seems to flip the game board every 5 minutes.
vintermann
83d ago
They're betting on things going "back to normal" eventually. They have neither the imagination or courage to think otherwise.

If it does, the new president/ruling party will probably look favorably on those who respected the crown even when they hated the guy who wore it. Because that's how the normal is.

nicce
83d ago
Finland just joined NATO, which means that they lost their neutrality and independency for foreign politics. It is now very difficult to do something completely different or unfrienly than the U.S. because of that one country with shared border.

If the U.S really takes more steps towards taking Greenland and works against NATO ally, then it might be very complicated situation for both Denmark and Finland, and the whole alliance. But until then Finland at least is stuck with the U.S.

ahmeneeroe-v2
84d ago
You don't have the leverage you think you have.
louthy
84d ago
1 reply
Which still makes Greenland safe. If neither side can get off the ground or convince their planes that they're in the air.
tokai
84d ago
1 reply
You understand that the Danish Airforce is Greenland's Airforce right? The Danish military is the official military of Greenland with an explicit agreement between the home rule parliament and the Danish Defence. Other than that all Greenlanders are danish citizens and are the danish state is obligated to defend them.
nicce
84d ago
I guess the point was that planes are similarly useless/useful in both sides.
the_real_cher
84d ago
The US is the most powerful 3 season military in the world.
beezle
84d ago
The Vermont Air Guard has flown a contingent of 20 F-35s since 2020 without (so far) incident. https://www.158fw.ang.af.mil/
preisschild
84d ago
3 replies
But why was there water in the hydraulic system in the first place?
BoredPositron
84d ago
1 reply
"Must be the water."
braza
84d ago
1 reply
Ferrari F1 internal meme?[1]

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/shorts/nCoxNLdUSaE

lifestyleguru
84d ago
1 reply
I don't get the joke. Did he pee himself, or the pit stop crew member is being useless?
groundcontr01
83d ago
The latter
grumpy-de-sre
84d ago
4 replies
Likely contamination of ground handling equipment [1]. Unfortunately can happen. I wonder if the hydraulic fluid is hygroscopic or something?

1. https://www.pacaf.af.mil/Portals/6/documents/3_AIB%20Report....

4gotunameagain
84d ago
1 reply
Hydraulic brake fluid is glycol ether based and hygroscopic. Planes usually use mineral based fluids which are not, but heck if I know what the F-35 uses.
grumpy-de-sre
84d ago
2 replies
Quoting ChatGPT (and after a quick sanity check),

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter uses a specialized hydraulic fluid that’s based on a synthetic ester formulation, not a petroleum-based fluid.

Specifically, it uses phosphate ester–based fire-resistant hydraulic fluid (commonly in the MIL-PRF-83282 or newer MIL-PRF-87257 class).

Apparently the older phosphate-ester based hydraulic fluids were hygroscopic but I'm not sure if the newer variants are.

Workaccount2
83d ago
1 reply
Yes, lets condition people to never reveal they used ChatGPT. Even though the response seems accurate.

[1]https://hiigroupasia.com/f-35-aviation-ground-support-equipm...

grumpy-de-sre
83d ago
Yeh the sanity check involved researching the milspecs listed and the connection to the F35 program.
yobbo
84d ago
Sounds similar to DOT-5 brake fluid.

Maybe this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tributyl_phosphate

"The major uses of TBP in industry are as a component of aircraft hydraulic fluid, brake fluid, and as a solvent for extraction and purification of rare-earth metals from their ores"

It might be better if it is hygroscopic as the water won't separate and risk forming ice plugs in the hydraulic lines.

MBCook
83d ago
1 reply
But 1/3 volume? That’s a LOT of contamination.
grumpy-de-sre
83d ago
Got to say the pictures of the hydraulic drum (and pump) in the DoD report are very confidence uninspiring.
HelloNurse
83d ago
1 reply
But what ground handling equipment? Does the hydraulic fluid need to be replaced after normal usage? Any intervention is an opportunity for mishaps, failure and sabotage. I'd expect the unlimited F-35 budget to come up with some formula that resists fire, cold, heat and pressure and doesn't need refills and/or with water detectors and other safety-critical chemical sensors in the hydraulic system.
grumpy-de-sre
83d ago
Everything leaks hydraulic fluid, it's just an inherent property of any system with dynamic seals.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/d3ruv-IsGMo

the__alchemist
84d ago
Thanks for the link. This is much more useful than the news article.
yobbo
84d ago
It could be condensation in expansion tanks, or it could be rain into open containers on the ground, or someone could have mistakenly poured cooling liquid (or something else) into the containers, or into the hydraulic system itself, or ...
MaxPock
84d ago
5 replies
Who eats the loss under such circumstances?

Government or Lockheed Martin or are these 200 million dollar jets insured ?

zrail
84d ago
3 replies
Ultimately the US taxpayers will eat the loss in either case. If the government tried to charge it back to Lockheed Martin they'd just raise the price on subsequent programs to compensate.

The government does insure weapons of war. Who would write the policy?

bedane
84d ago
1 reply
is insurance for military equipment a thing? I had no idea.

If you have very deep pockets like a nation has, why not simply replace the lost hardware and never insure/pay premiums(which would be calculated to net a profit to the insurer)?

zrail
83d ago
ugh I meant "does _not_" that's what I get for posting while eating breakfast.
varispeed
84d ago
1 reply
Usually wars, vis major are exceptions in insurance policies.
analog31
84d ago
... as is farce majeur.
zrail
83d ago
late edit: "does _not_ insure weapons of war"
the_real_cher
84d ago
1 reply
The government issues bonds to pay for this and the federal reserve prints money to buy the bonds.

Its FREE money!!!

harshreality
84d ago
1 reply
The view that GP seems to subscribe to is that, when you insure something and need to make a claim on that policy, the insurance money is free.

That's not any more true.

cjbgkagh
83d ago
1 reply
During the BLM riots many participants in justifying their actions of property destruction would claim that the costs of replacing the property would come from insurance. Many people don’t have insurance, or self insure, and those that do could see a rise in premiums that make their business unviable. Additionally for some business it doesn’t make sense to rebuild as the circumstances that lead to their creation has changed, for these it’ll make more sense to take the insurance money and not rebuild resulting in a loss to the community.

Personally I don’t make a big distinction between crimes against property and crimes against people. I live for my life’s work, if someone destroyed that they might as well have killed me. Additionally many people are dying due to lack of resources, so if someone could be saved for $1M then the destruction of $1M of wealth might has well have killed them. As such I would treat theft and other white collar crime on part with mass murder.

sitkack
83d ago
You need to leave!
meindnoch
84d ago
2 replies
Where did they get this 200million figure from? Sounds bogus.
dgacmu
84d ago
1 reply
The per plane cost varies a lot depending on what you want to wrap in it: how much of the development costs you amortize, the modernization program, etc. but $200m is in the range.

("Total acquisition costs" vs the marginal cost of the next plane can result in a more than 2x difference in how much you think the plane costs)

The flyaway cost of buying one more plane is probably a bit under $100m though.

josefresco
84d ago
> The flyaway cost of buying one more plane is probably a bit under $100m though.

$82.5 million https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45039618

ux266478
84d ago
1 reply
F-14D unit cost was ~$74 million in 1988. Adjusting for inflation that's ~$202 million in 2025. It's not that unreasonable for an American fighter jet, honestly.
cjbgkagh
83d ago
The F-14 is twin engine, 40% more plane and can fly faster. Also the F-14 was considered expensive.

My main disappointment with the F35 is that it could have been a lot cheaper with modern design technology and manufacturing. That and the software is needlessly buggy. I had a friend working on F35 at a time I was working on software quality research, when I discussed the possibility of applying the research to F35 he let me know that bugs were seen as a cash cow and he would be working on bugs on the F35 until he retires. He was right. And now we have stuff like this happening.

nelox
84d ago
Self-insured. The government absorbs losses itself instead of purchasing commercial insurance.
gdbsjjdn
84d ago
Don't worry, the US military will recoup the loss by extorting some more natural resources from Ukraine and building some sea-side condos in Gaza.
m000
84d ago
6 replies
This is wild. You can't get away from these zoom calls even as an F-35 pilot.
mbirth
84d ago
2 replies
I bet, once the gear malfunctioned, Clippy popped up on the screen and suggested to call support.
aduty
84d ago
1 reply
Hey, all Clippy ever wanted to do was help.
mrguyorama
83d ago
Clippy never sold my data. Clippy never forced me to update when I didn't have time. Clippy never advertised things to me. Clippy never lied to me. Clippy didn't take hundreds of watts of power to provide incorrect answers.

Clippy was an assistant, built to help me solve problems I didn't understand, and built to help computer illiterate people use their computers more effectively and was made out of genuine expressions of making their product better for more people.

m000
84d ago
1 reply
At least it wasn't Bonzi Buddy telling jokes to lighten up the mood.
Rooster61
84d ago
That might explain why the computer thought it was on the ground while it was flying
tigerBL00D
84d ago
2 replies
Am I the only one thinking that it's time for something like an R2D2? Presumably it could get into some crammed spaces and thaw things out of needed. I'm sure it's a stupid idea, BTW, but a fun one )
FatalLogic
83d ago
It's a fun idea. Though it would have to be a really small R2-D2 that could work from the inside.

The fictional R2-D2 had a big advantage of being in vacuum so it could work from the outside, without disturbing the airflow, and without having its work disturbed by the airflow.

Envisage what happens at 900km/h in atmosphere, if R2-D2 tries to lift up an exterior wing panel to troubleshoot a blocked line?

marcosdumay
83d ago
Well... aircraft maintenance doesn't work like that.

Even car maintenance doesn't work like that anymore. There's almost nothing you can do just by crawling around and messing with the parts there.

whatsupdog
84d ago
2 replies
I think the call was only 10 minutes long. For 40 minutes the pilot was just waiting for the next available representative.
slipperydippery
84d ago
40 minutes realizing they need to update Zoom, updating Zoom, then trying to figure out why their mic isn't working.
notjustanymike
84d ago
First he had to wait for the other engineers to update product on their Jira tickets.
swader999
84d ago
2 replies
I'd pay a lot of money for a zoom premium version that has a real eject button.
jacquesm
84d ago
1 reply
Especially if it connects to the chairs of other participants.
swader999
84d ago
1 reply
Randomly
jacquesm
84d ago
1 reply
That would give the term 'chatroulette' a totally different vibe.
lostmsu
83d ago
That gave me an idea of 6 person chats that go down to 2 for dating.
kilroy123
83d ago
balls187
83d ago
It would be funny if the reason the call was 50 minutes was because they were using the free version of Zoom, and the meeting ended automatically.

(I'm aware Zoom meeting limit is 40 minutes)

cm2187
84d ago
I was told there is so much automation on those planes, the pilot does little flying. I always assumed they were kept busy going through their compliance trainings.
voidUpdate
84d ago
3 replies
> "they likely would have advised a planned full stop landing or a controlled ejection instead of a second touch-and-go"

Is that not what the pilot did anyway? Or is a "controlled ejection" different from what they did?

fabian2k
84d ago
1 reply
The article mentioned that the aircraft become uncontrollable once it thought it was on the ground and switched control modes. And then the pilot ejected.

I assume a controlled ejection would have been during controlled flight at a time and location specifically chosen. This ejection was necessary because the plane was uncontrollable in the end.

voidUpdate
84d ago
Ah, I see, ejection in a controlled situation instead of "oh no, time to go now"
the_real_cher
84d ago
I had the exact same thought.
lentil_soup
84d ago
If I understood correctly, the ejection came after the second touch and go made the plane go into landed mode which made it impossible to fly anymore
freefaler
84d ago
5 replies
So as a pilot you can't override the software to stop it from "thinking that the plane is on the ground" mode?

Something similar happened recently with A320 when it didn't want to land on an airfield during emergency unless it was flown in a special mode. But F-35 doesn't have that?

netsharc
84d ago
4 replies
> unless it was flown in a special mode.

What fresh hell is that... reboot, jam F8 just as the "Airbus" logo shows up, and then select "Boot in safe mode"?

xattt
84d ago
1 reply
Fly-by-wire aircraft have changeable “flight laws” that correspond to different levels of computer intervention to mitigate situations incompatible with controlled flight.

Think of it as various stability control modes in a modern car. Likely the aircraft needed to be put in the least restrictive flight law mode as a workaround.

lazide
83d ago
‘Incompatible with controlled flight’ is my new ‘rapid unscheduled disassembly’.

Notably, most drones have similar levels of control. Everything has to go through the IMU of course (nobody is manually going to be managing 4 separate motor controllers at once), but depending on the modes, the type of control is wildly different.

‘Consumer’/‘idiot’ mode - you tell it which direction to go, and how high/low you want it, and it’ll do that safely. Usually with some sort of object detection/avoidance, auto GPS input, so you won’t accidentally wander into something or hit something. Goal is stable, level flight.

‘Sport’ mode - go fast, usually disables all but the most simple collision avoidance. Sometimes even that. Still provides stable, level flight, but you can easily crash it. Usually goes 2-3x faster than ‘idiot’ mode.

‘Attitude’ or ‘acrobatic’ mode - you’re directly commanding the target 3D pitch/yaw, and aggregate power output. No provision is given to automatically maintaining level flight (won’t auto level), generally no regard is given to airframe integrity, collision avoidance, or engine life, and boy is it fun.

It’s really common to crash in this mode, because people are also doing flips, acrobatic maneuvers, running courses, etc.

Drones in even ‘sport’ mode can’t do flips because it’s fundamentally at odds with auto maintaining level flight, etc.

crote
84d ago
2 replies
Airbus is fully fly-by-wire. Without some kind of computer intervention, nothing would be stopping an accidental bang against the flight stick from causing a maneuver violent enough to rip the wings off.

An Airbus can operate in three modes. With Normal Law, the airplane will refuse to do anything which will stop it from flying. This means the pilot cannot stall the airplane, for example: the computer will automatically correct for it.

With Alternate Law the pilot loses most protections, but the plane will still try to protect against self-destruction. The plane no longer protects against being stalled, but it won't let you rip the wings off.

With Direct Law all bets are off. Controls now map one-to-one to control surfaces, the plane will make no attempt to correct you. All kinds of automatic trimming are lost, you are now essentially flying a Cessna again. The upside is that it no longer relies on potentially broken sensors either: raising the gear while on the ground is usually a really stupid idea - until the "is the plane on the ground" sensors break.

So no, a "Boot in safe mode" isn't as strange as it might sound at first glance. It significantly improves safety during day-to-day operations, while still providing a fallback mechanism during emergencies.

megaloblasto
83d ago
4 replies
How does a pilot switch between the three modes? Just switches on the dash?
foxyv
83d ago
2 replies
This is a very "Don't do this" kind of situation but you can force the computer to switch to a different law by pulling circuit breakers for certain instruments. Typically though it will happen automatically when the computer detects sensor failures.

Changing the law of the aircraft is something you REALLY do not want to do. It's a "The Airplane broke real bad, do that pilot thing!" situation. Especially on a fighter jet with relaxed stability.

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=748133

Some fighters have an "EFCS" switch which will switch laws. This can be used during "I'm going to fly into the ground" or "I'm losing this dogfight" situations. Typically this means you are going to be scrapping the airframe soon one way or another.

mikrotikker
83d ago
1 reply
Ah is this what the "cobra button" is effectively?
foxyv
82d ago
Yeah, in the Su-27 Flanker that is exactly what it is. You change the flight controls to direct control so you can do things that will put the airplane in an unsafe condition. I think it's a switch in the Flanker as well.

In jets like the F-22 Raptor it will just "cobra" with stick input. They will dump the wing controls automatically to unload the wings, and use thrust vectoring to reach absurd angles of attack. The F-18 Hornet uses a paddle switch which will increase the G-limiter and allow spin recovery.

megaloblasto
83d ago
Very interesting. Reminds me of 2001 a space odyssey when the pilot unplugs parts of Hals brain in order to regain control over the ship.
ahartmetz
83d ago
As I understand it, there are no switches because pilots aren't supposed to switch modes, but if necessary, pulling certain circuit breakers will disable subsystems whose failure triggers alternate law. And AFAIU it is documented which breakers are "least unsafe" to use that way.
ssalazar
83d ago
This blog post (and blog in general) has some detailed descriptions of different control laws, how they are activated, and how they contributed to the conditions of this particular crash: https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/trial-by-fire-the-crash-...

The above post is focused on a Sukhoi jet, with some comparison to Airbus' design, but they also cover Airbus in another post: https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/the-long-way-down-the-cr...

selectodude
83d ago
It automatically downgrades modes as sensors break. You can force into alternate law by pulling some fuses if you really want to.
libraryofbabel
83d ago
Great explanation. And of course the distinction between Normal Law and Alternate Law or Direct Law was at the heart of one of the most famous crashes of recent years, Air France 447: https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/the-long-way-down-the-cr...
munchlax
83d ago
You've reached the Airbus emergency hotline.

Have you tried forcing an unexpected reboot?

voidUpdate
83d ago
The first part is trying to work out which key you need to mash, its always the one you check last
seethishat
84d ago
3 replies
"On the ground" = WoW sensors. WoW sensors have been around a long time (see link). And, humans probably should not have any say about that. If humans could override WoW, then the landing gear could be deployed or retracted when it should not and cause a lot of damage due to human error.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACARS

agos
84d ago
1 reply
this makes sense but why is the decision based only on the state of the landing gear? Is it dumb to expect altitude and speed to be considered?
seplox
83d ago
No, that's not dumb at all. Inputs are filthy and sensors fail. If you're not comparing all available sensor data to confirm your understanding of reality, then a single sensor failure could... oh I dunno... cause your 737 MAX to divebomb.

The F-35 could compare weight on wheels to airspeed as a simple sanity check.

jcalvinowens
84d ago
I know the 737 allows the pilot to override that (force the wheels to raise even if the airplane thinks it's on the ground). I think most airliners do. I can't find a good succinct reference though.

EDIT: Remembered Airbus exists

tonyarkles
83d ago
Yeah, when I saw that it was related to WoW sensors I was reminded of a chat that I had with an experienced aviation engineer a few years ago when we were considering adding them to the UAS I'm working on. "Every system I've ever worked on that relied on WoW sensors has had some kind of unexpected adverse event due to the sensors either triggering when they weren't supposed to, or not triggering when they should have. If you can figure out a different way to do what you're trying to do, please do."
foldr
83d ago
> Something similar happened recently with A320

Are you sure? I can’t seem to find any references to any such incident.

nurple
83d ago
I've crashed an RC helicopter because of a similar software issue. Rotorflight is an OSS flight controller, and it has an internal mode for tracking if the vehicle is on the ground or not that isn't always quite accurate at the margins. If you're touching the ground and it's not in ground-handling mode, the I-term in the PID loop winds up really quickly (because the input isn't producing the expected rotation rate) and flips your model on its side.

Betaflight (flight controller for drones, which rotorflight is based on) has a similar function called "air mode" which is common to either disable or set to a switch for aerobatic drones so that they'll still have full rotation rates at zero throttle.

foxyv
83d ago
That's kind of funny. Most fighter jets have an emergency override for the gear so you can use gravity or maneuvers to drop them to a down and locked position even during hydraulic and electrical failures. I can understand not being able to bring the gear up, but getting the gear down should be very easy.

I wonder if the F-35 has a similar gear override.

Molitor5901
84d ago
3 replies
Considering they relieved a pilot of command for ejecting when his F-35 become unresponsive, now they make them sit on conference calls. That pilot is very brave, I think others would have ejected by now. Making them fly around up there is ridiculous.
5f3cfa1a
84d ago
2 replies
Ejecting from an airplane is no joke: 18g of force leaves 20-30% with spinal fractures, and ejection seats have an 8% mortality rate[1]

It seems to me that continuing flight with inoperative/damaged landing gear while you discuss alternatives with engineers is the safest option. Burn fuel, make a plan, let people on the ground mobilize to help, and eject when you've tried what you can and it truly becomes the safest option.

[1]: https://sites.nd.edu/biomechanics-in-the-wild/2021/04/06/top...

crote
84d ago
5 replies
It makes you wonder if it would be possible for ejection seats to have a safer bailout mode. Sure, the "compress your spine" mode is definitely appropriate during a wartime situation where someone has shot your wings off, but is it really required when a mechanical failure leaves you unable to land yet in a more-or-less stable flight at a reasonably low speed? Perhaps a 6g ejection might be more appropriate in those cases?
the__alchemist
83d ago
1 reply
I wonder about that. Maybe the added complexity is a con? I.e. the default would still be full force, but a controlled ejection mode could be gentler, but still capable of clearing the aircraft reliably in straight/level flight.
LorenPechtel
83d ago
Straight and level isn't the issue, airspeed is.
Aurornis
83d ago
1 reply
The ejection force is to ensure the pilot clears the airplane as they enter the airstream. Think about how much force you feel when you hold your hand out a car window at 60MPH, then remember that wind resistance increases with the square of speed. You have to be launched hard to get away from the tail.

Also the last thing you want in the critical emergency safety gear is more levels of complexity and additional things for the pilot to consider.

HPsquared
83d ago
That airspeed is highly variable though, the plane can go supersonic or at approach/landing speed with flaps extended. Probably 10x+ less aerodynamic force going at low (indicated) airspeed.
lazide
83d ago
Did you watch the latest Tom Cruise mission impossible movie? Unless you want to be the bad guy at the end, you need to be very clear of the aircraft if you’re ejecting. For a fighter aircraft, that necessarily requires very violent forces.

It’s a major concern with skydiving too - there are many aircraft it’s impossible to safely exit in flight without impacting some part of the airframe.

prmoustache
83d ago
Did you see how the plane went down in the video? It is like he just had shutted down completely and was in free fall. Better eject fast when you have no idea in which angle and how fast the plane is about to fall.
HPsquared
84d ago
Maybe they want it to be a bit injurious so people only do it as a last resort.
jajko
84d ago
Any military pilot has what, 2 or max 3 ejections even in best case scenario before they have to be retired due to medical reasons? If given army lets them actually fly another one.

Its the last resort, lesser of 2 evils situation, not some cool trick hollywood may make you believe.

RankingMember
84d ago
2 replies
Upon first reading the headline I was thinking it was some sort of test flight. Nope, poor guy was just trying to fly and ended up forced into a high-stakes troubleshooting tree while on a conference call, as if there's not enough on your mind in a fighter cockpit.

I don't know how many human-manned gens of aircraft are left, but my first inclination is to think a remote-control fallback option wouldn't be out of line here if the security could be done right.

nradov
83d ago
1 reply
Remote control for what? That doesn't really help in the case of a serious mechanical failure.

There are probably several more generations of crewed tactical aircraft left. Autonomous flight control software is decades away from being able to handle complex missions and remote piloting can only work when you have secure, reliable, high-bandwidth communication links. The concept of operations for the next few generations will rely on manned/unmanned teaming where drones are sent forward to do most of the fighting and the manned aircraft hang back slightly but still within line of sight to act as control nodes.

RankingMember
82d ago
1 reply
> Remote control for what? That doesn't really help in the case of a serious mechanical failure.

In my theoretical, the pilot would safely eject as he did here (or possibly before the touch-and-gos) and the remote control would come into play to try and belly land the plane without it simply becoming a fireball immediately after ejection.

nradov
82d ago
1 reply
Your theoretical is stupid. The mishap aircraft was uncontrollable.
RankingMember
82d ago
1 reply
It clearly was controllable up until the last touch-and-go. The point is they could've attempted an actual landing with the pilot clear of the aircraft prior to it becoming completely uncontrollable had their been a remote option. It's about pilot safety.
nradov
82d ago
That's silly. You're talking about spending years and billions of dollars developing a capability that might be used once every few years. It's not going to do anything to enhance pilot safety.
lazide
83d ago
Honestly, an override switch was all they needed. The problem is they went all digital and didn’t have one.
Aurornis
84d ago
> That pilot is very brave, I think others would have ejected by now. Making them fly around up there is ridiculous.

Definitely not. Ejecting is very risky. If the plane is possibly fixable you would much rather spend the time trying to calmly debug it to get it back to a point where you can land, rather than risk the possibly career ending physical injuries that can come from ejecting.

You also want to maneuver the plane into an area where it’s safer to crash.

The eject button isn’t the safe way out of every situation.

The other pilot situation you brought up isn’t so simple, either. A pilot who panic ejects before attempting to properly evaluate the situation is a risk not only to themselves but to people on the ground. Flying one of these planes is an extremely rare privilege reserved for a select few who have demonstrated their abilities and judgment to an extreme degree. It’s not a job for life and they can’t risk having someone who has demonstrated panicky judgment occupying one of the few spots that could be filled by a long line of very competent candidates.

meindnoch
84d ago
1 reply
On most meetings, I wish I was sitting in an ejection seat.
jWhick
84d ago
yeah like fuck this shit i'm ejecting
sschueller
84d ago
2 replies
Switzerland, if they want something they can fly for air policing is forced to buy the F35 at what every price the US feels fit (even though the contract with Lockheed states a fixed price, naive politicians and consultants found out the hard way). Of course the CHF to USD conversion is fix at a shit rate from many years ago and from what I understand there is no way around that because the SNB did the conversion back then already.

We have no alternative we can get before 2035. They are talking about extending the F/A-18 but since we would be the only ones still using them we would have to pay for that too at who know what price.

The public approved 6 billion and now it looks like it will be way more, excluding skyrocketing maintenance which is not included and a patriot missile system that when it is finally delivered will cost who knows how many billions.

The whole thing is an absolute shit show here and that's ignoring the technical issues this thing has...

orwin
84d ago
1 reply
With such a terrain, I would guess that agility and the ability to land on highway of in fields without burning all avionics and electronics would have been rated higher than stealth, but it wasn't. Still, the Swiss were offered a fairly low price, and promised low operating costs, and that's the main reason they didn't choose the Eurofighter (which isn't a multi-purpose jet but an interceptor)
stripe_away
84d ago
1 reply
JAS 39 Gripen can land on roads. Might have been a better choice.
nradov
83d ago
1 reply
Every modern tactical aircraft including the F-35A can land on roads. This isn't a capability unique to the Gripen.

https://www.af.mil/News/Article-Display/Article/3895003/us-a...

orwin
82d ago
You can, but it will destroy your plane electronics if you can't bring an external cooler fast enough. even with the next gen internal cooler (that won't be in test until 2029, so not installed until like 2035), the jury is still out until it's done.

And Stealth alone is not good enough, not anymore. Radar and optics tech caught up. You still have to load of flares for any CAS or any engagement that will involve fox-2 targeting (which, you know, break your profile and make you visible on old radars), and from what i heard, Thales is confident on its next-gen avionics/optics/radars ability to detect gen5 radar signal, so much so that they clearly focus on future-proofing against EW equipements (that don't yet exist, allegedly).

The future is Stealth+Altitude, or stealth+EW+unmaned, automated drone with similar radar profile, and that's probably when the F35 will probably shine, but until then, i just don't think it's a good plane, not yet.

Also i think fighter planes based on the Growler will probably be better in the future. If a country bought F35 without asking for Growlers, my intuition is that it was a political choice, not an informed/military one (So basically, Australia military, to me, is the only sane country).

UltraSane
84d ago
2 replies
Israel's attack on Iran using the F-35 proves it is a very effective, if expensive, weapon.
borlox
83d ago
1 reply
That's been a single strike.

I wonder how good it would still be when the enemy had resources and time to adapt in an ongoing conflict. In russia's war with ukraine, we saw tactics and tools quickly evolving.

FridayoLeary
83d ago
Not on the level of responding to fith generation fighter jets. Most of their advances are in quadcopter technology. They both started with ww2 tactics. Its not surprising that they would take advantage of the low hanging fruits of 75 years of progress. If anything it's shocking how little both sides have changed fundamental tactics like not using meatwaves, which went out of fashion in ww1.
jajko
84d ago
Only if US lets you use it, and given constant instability current government shows, next generation of fighters won't be bought from US.

Better to have something even worse on paper that can actually fly and lock targets than an expensive paperweight.

efitz
84d ago
4 replies
F-35 is a boondoggle.

$200M for one fighter plane is insane.

If the USA ever had to go to war with this weapon, a huge number of them would be offline at any given time, and every single airframe loss would cause a huge dent in overall combat power.

I don’t understand why our military and political leaders keep trying to buy ridiculously overpriced Swiss Army knife weapons (lots of flexibility but great at nothing) instead of mass producing combat knives (only good for one thing but great at it and lots of them).

josefresco
84d ago
1 reply
The Air Force's F-35A variant has an "average" flyaway cost of $82.5 million for the jet's 15th, 16th and 17th production lots.

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/10/newest-f-35-f-15ex-contr...

The F-35 base model is around $80 million, rising to the highest known price of $109 million per unit for the F-35B vertical takeoff and landing variant.

And then there's this:

"The flyaway cost for the F-15EX Eagle II is approximately $90 million for each aircraft in the program’s second production lot, about $7.5 million more than the newest price for an F-35A"

adastra22
83d ago
F-35 is both the cheapest and most effective vehicle we have access to.
scottLobster
84d ago
1 reply
You sure about that? You should look at the F-35's performance in Israeli hands in their recent strikes on Iran.
haberman
83d ago
5 replies
For me, that was a moment when I realized that the received wisdom about military things can be just completely wrong.

I had considered myself to be reasonably informed about the F-35, and how "everyone knows" it's a boondoggle. I think this started with a long-form article I read in 2013, "How the U.S. and Its Allies Got Stuck with the World’s Worst New Warplane": https://medium.com/war-is-boring/fd-how-the-u-s-and-its-alli...

Here is the HN discussion at the time, full of confident assertions that the F-35 is useless: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6211029

Fast forward to this year, when Israel's F-35s operated over Iran with total impunity. Not a single plane lost AFAIK.

lazide
83d ago
2 replies
Iran isn’t really a near peer adversary, however. But I guess that is the F35’s target market?

Do you expect it would do as well over Ukraine? Or if there was a spat with China over Taiwan (for example)?

It is possible for both things to be true.

FridayoLeary
83d ago
1 reply
They had some pretty advanced anti aircraft systems. Also they are invisible to radar so they were truly surprised attacks coming out of the blue. So yes, it would be.
pear01
83d ago
1 reply
They said the same thing about the F-117 in 1999. It was shot down by a Soviet era AA. It was said once, "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed". The same applies here. Comparing bombing Iran to a conflict with China is delusional, put plainly the capabilities of the aircraft have never actually been tested against a competent peer - when it actually matters.
TiredOfLife
83d ago
1 reply
That F-117 was because it was flying every day for months on the same route at the same time and they lucked out with radar catching the plane during the couple seconds it's bomb doors were open.
pear01
83d ago
1 reply
Yes, and they did that because of the same arrogance alluded to in my quote.
scottLobster
83d ago
1 reply
If the worst we have to worry about is China getting similarly lucky a few times, we'll win handily.
pear01
83d ago
You're missing the point entirely. The adversary in 1999 was not remotely near peer. So say arrogance there costs you only one plane, which nonetheless becomes infamous as a cautionary tale about superpower hubris. The same against China will be far more fatal. Also, fwiw conflict with China is routinely simulated by American war planners, and to put it plainly there is no longer any plausible scenario where America "wins handily" in the Taiwan strait. Your suggestion that this is even possible is therefore vaguely amusing. Maybe also look to the past decades of American war fighting. When was the last time we felt like we outright "won" a war? When against a peer or near peer? Mission accomplished?
TiredOfLife
83d ago
Iran runs russian S300 and S400 air defence systems - the best non Nato countries have.
lostmsu
83d ago
2 replies
Quick googling shows that the Internet is succumbing to the propaganda machines. MSN mindlessly reproduces Iranian article about 2 shot down F-35s but I was unable to find any credible source to confirm that.
TiredOfLife
83d ago
One of the crashed ones was larger than Antonov An-225 Mriya and was surrounded by people larger than 2 storey house.

The other had wings backwards, didn't look like f35 and had engine still running after crashing into pieces.

MomsAVoxell
83d ago
Searching in Persian?

The expectation that there would be 'fair and honest' reporting about aircraft losses on the part of an aggressor is not reasonable. Why on Earth would Western powers allow themselves to be so easily embarrassed?

pear01
83d ago
2 replies
Do you have any reason to attribute this to the fact they were F-35s? For comparison, how many jets were lost during "shock and awe"? Israel operates with impunity in Iran all the time, often on the ground. I'm not sure the fact they used F-35s is actually relevant here but if you have a source on that it would be interesting to read. Given the state of Iran it is hard to imagine the same could not be achieved with a last generation aircraft... it would not be surprising if by the time a peer power conflict starts manned aircraft like the F-35 will already be obsolete...
adastra22
83d ago
1 reply
Read F-35: The Inside Story of the Lightning II. The book sets the record straight on a lot of these issues.
pear01
83d ago
1 reply
Sounds like an interesting book, though far too many pages for a subject I have only a passing interest in. I would note given the authors affiliations I'm not sure I would ever consider it something that could "set the record straight". If there's a controversy about the program the authors backgrounds don't exactly suggest one will be getting a balanced view. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I appreciate the suggestion anyway.
adastra22
83d ago
It’s not at all unbiased, in a journalistic sense, and doesn’t present itself as such (for others: it is written by the now retired program manager of the F-35 development program). But the relevant facts about the performance and cost effectiveness of the plane are a matter of public record, and the book is interesting for providing the inside view on the politics which resulted in the unfair propaganda campaign against it.

You are free to draw your own conclusions of course. I worked for Lockheed previously in my career, and some in my family still do. Though I hold no stock or other ties now (different career, different industry), my experience does lead me to take the authors at face value. There are many issues with Lockheed leadership, but professional integrity is not one of them.

heisenbit
83d ago
If you look at the Ukraine war the planes are operating from a distance to the frontlines on both sides. The ones close the the front fly in low and then climb and drop their guided distance munitions.
FergusArgyll
83d ago
The west has been in a very negative mood for a few years now. I'd generally discount the "We're losing the x race to y" kind of talk.

The f22 is more elegant though

mrguyorama
83d ago
>received wisdom about military things can be just completely wrong.

Consider that what you thought was "received wisdom" was literally Russian propaganda. However, the actual reality was always there, always being patiently insisted by people who knew what they were talking about, who were in fact still discussing actual boondoggles with the program, like the portion of the program that built the tailhook and was terribly run and ineffective at points.

People like Pierre Sprey have been shouting the same lies for decades, and credulous people with zero domain knowledge have been repeating his horse shit forever. He was the same guy who insisted that we should be building really stripped down planes without radar, without missiles, without anything.

He was very much the originator of a lot of anti-F35 FUD, on Russia Today no less. Western media was literally quoting the Russian propaganda firm to tell people how the F35 sucked. He helped push the utter BS that is "Oh, Russia's long wave radar makes stealth not work" which if you don't understand how that's irrelevant and untrue, don't ever have an opinion on modern warplanes.

There's a famous article talking about how terrible the F35 was by interviewing an F16 pilot who had faced it in dogfight training. The article talked at length about how the pilot of the F16 was able to out dogfight the F35. Now, it's sufficient to mention that gun range dogfights are not a thing in modern air combat, or at the very least are not designed for, because as long as your enemy has a single radar or IR missile left, you've already lost. However, beyond that, the F35 wasn't terrible, it's just very unlikely to match the literal king of dogfights. More importantly, the article mentioned something that I'm sure they didn't even realize the importance of.

Even at knife fighting range, the F16 radar assisted gunsight was unable to lock on to the F35. Go look at early jet aircraft gunnery statistics for an idea of how laughably bad dogfighting an F35 would be.

Oh, and that entire test was done with an F35 that wasn't allowed or capable of flying it's full envelope. It was an F35 with a hand tied behind it's back.

HPsquared
84d ago
1 reply
Now they've made a lot of them, the cost per unit is actually kinda reasonable as these things go. Still way way more than drones though.
TiredOfLife
83d ago
But manned planes don't have to keep thousands of kilometers of fiber optics cable on board.
FridayoLeary
83d ago
the price is much lower today. Cheaper then the latest f15. I was also skeptical of the project but its really proved itself. The simple fact is that stealth abilities gives it an ubeatable advantage. It expands the capabilities of an army so much its indispensible. 5 years ago i would agreed with you but im forced to change my opinion in the face of the evidence. The f15 is going nowhere like the b52, but it cant come close to the f35.

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