Ask HN: Has anyone else been unemployed for over two years?
No synthesized answer yet. Check the discussion below.
I know it's hard out there (at least where I am) but I have helped a few people get jobs in the last 90 days, so please share the barrier you're facing and maybe someone can help.
I will note I at the time had 5 YOE but no degree so that is a factor (many I don't qualify since no degree).
Reading r/cscareerquestions is depressing not that I go on there much now. People talking about applying to thousands of jobs.
And I'm not saying this from an ivory tower, my first job took 700 applications in 2021. But until you have a job, your job is to apply 8 hours a day
I have a friend who is a SSE. Mid 30s. Been fully employed his entire life. No degree. Has been writing production code since 15.
His entire local professional network got nuked and people stopped hiring because of that stupid software engineering R&D amortization budget deception of Section 174. And I assume the double whammy of ai.
He had his resume reviewed, ran it by friends it looked good and solid.
Applied to about 300 roles before realizing it was a non starter and he was getting automated rejections for everything.
He had to automate his application process around a full career CV and Ai.
He would spend all day copying in role descriptions and urls and had cursor spit out custom .MD resumes and then run a pdf generator on them.
It was kinda ok and also kinda like each resume was a hyper specific lie. It definitely hallucinated.
He still hit 3k resumes before getting hired and he still only had like 4 companies give interviews.
And that was only after that stupid tax law was revoked.
One persons past suffering and struggle cannot be so naively extrapolated to anothers current suffering.
Needing to amortize expenses over 15 years puts a big damper on anything corps may be excited about today but with less than 100% assurance of in the long run? Restoring the pre-2022 regime for domestic expenses only is for the most part supporting domestic workers? So your friend is back in a more familiar job market... maybe college grads too? Thanks.
It's been reversed now, but the inertia is still being felt. The backlog of highly qualified engineers ares still competing for positions, and other factors such as the interest rate and the effect of AI on positions for younger engineers are still in effect.
Now? It seems a waste of time because no one responds anyway. I'm incentivised to apply to as many as possible in the hope of having a conversation with someone.
those didn't come back with any more frequency than the auto-apply
After 4 years at AWS, and ~20 in the industry, I was utterly burnt out, and needed a break. So I took two years off.
Being middle age is a risk for sure, but also keep in mind you have only one or two big changes left before you're done. It matters more to get into a spot that can take you where you need to go.
Good luck with it.
It definitely hit my self-esteem, as well as 401(k).
I ended up taking a job with Microsoft, but it was a poor fit because I hate the company as well as the product area I was in.
As soon as I could I found another employer that, while not perfect, I'm much happier with.
Don't know if true and if not might be close, but I recently saw the average compensation at Microsoft is ~200k...
Edit: was slightly lower than the number the sibling comment mentioned.
And I didn't stay long enough fory stock grant to vest at all (IIRC).
I'm commenting because I get self-conscious of over sharing. Being asked a direct question and answering it, should be good shouldn't it?
> Has anyone else been unemployed for over two years? How are you coping?
I view the first question as actually being more of a selector trying to narrow down the discussion to people who are in the same boat and are currently unemployed for 2+ years. So not applicable to the parent. And they don't even attempt to answer the second question.
Of course anyone is free to comment on HN, and discussions in comments frequently go off topic. And I do think that 14 months is a long enough time to be able to empathize with with the OP is going through.
But I guess what I personally would like to have seen is some acknowledgement that "I know the question was directed at people who are unemployed for 2+ years, but..." and trying to answer the OPs question of how to cope. And also some acknowledgement that a job at Microsoft, while maybe not a good fit for the parent, is actually quite a privilege.
FWIW, the main points I was trying to convey are:
1) Even 14 months was really hard me.
2) Only because I had a 401(k) to tap did I avoid disaster.
3) Even after long unemployment there can, in some cases, be a path back to a reasonable career.
Discouraging people from posting positive anecdotes is not the goal, either. If anything, positive stories are very valuable in threads like this.
EDIT: Oh, wow, so much disagreement. 30 minutes, 3 downvotes, 0 comments. So tell me _where_ I am wrong.
The defeatist "all corps are evil" mentality will not do you any good.
It always fought against open source. Embrace, extend, extinguish. It always stifled innovation. Internet Explorer 6. And now, it bought GitHub and then plagiarized all public and private projects hosted on it. GPL cannot exist in a world where you can build a statistical model of the code and mechanically reproduce its functionality while somehow losing the GPL licensing in the process.
Also, calling it "defeatist" has no base in what I wrote. I didn't even write anything about corporations. Abuse has a much simpler description - using a power differential to benefit yourself at other people's expense.
A confusing distinction to make in a thread about employment.
> It always fought against open source.
They've since admitted this was a mistake, and in 2020 were cited as the single largest contributor to open source projects: https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/18/21262103/microsoft-open-s...
> And now, it bought GitHub and then plagiarized all public and private projects hosted on it.
This is news to me. Are you claiming Microsoft/GitHub used or sold private source code for training LLMs?
Don't anthropomorphize organizations. It was no longer beneficial for them to openly fight open source so instead the people in charge decided they needed to get developer mindshare by changing their public signaling. The sad thing is many people fell for it. They can just as easily switch back at any time when it becomes beneficial.
BTW, the phrasing "Microsoft has embraced open source" is very ironic and given my previous paragraph, it is a nice foreshadowing or what can come next at any time.
> Are you claiming Microsoft/GitHub used or sold private source code for training LLMs?
I have not seen it denied in any official communication. After skimming this question[0], nobody else could either and the phrasing in their FAQ is oddly specific about Business and Enterprise. So yes, given their patterns of behavior, it's very likely and I will consider it true until proven otherwise.
But that's not the biggest issue. That is that every LLM or LLM-adjacent company (Microsoft included) seems to suddenly argue that a mechanical transformation of input data is enough to erase licensing and attribution.[1] Free software licenses like GPL simple cannot exist in this environment. In fact, any licenses would have exactly 0 meaning.
See a program you want with a license you don't want? Just run it through a sufficiently complex black box and out the other side you have an identically behaving program which according to big-tech has no relation to the input. You can even do this with closed source software if you run it through a decompiler first.
I recall a MS CEO shouting something about developers when developers were the thing they needed most. Now they can train NNs on the devs' own work to imitate and replace the devs so devs are no longer valuable and get thrown under the bus.
Oh and MS employees are apparently forced to use LLMs by management...
[0]: https://github.com/orgs/community/discussions/135400
[1]: This is a convenient 180° turn after for example people who had ever seen windows source code could not contribute to wine.
When I took an offer at Google I had literally been searching for months and had no other offers.
Years later, after a couple years career break I had been searching for months and could hardly get startups to talk to me, but X and Meta seemed very interested (I was not interested in them).
I know it sounds intuitive that if someone can land a gig at one of the large companies then they can easily get a job at someplace that's doing "good work" but this is often not the case.
But emotionally, much better off than last year.
Making ends meet with a return to non-tech after a 3 decade break. Won’t ever stop doing that at least part-time, going forward, for security. For tech, focused on a body of work to create opportunities.
Optimistic.
Been about eight years, and, after I got over the butthurt of not being hired, I leaned into retirement (I am grateful to have the means).
Best thing that ever happened to me.
There's a lot of bad hiring teams, though. So, I totally get it. Retirement is also nice if you can afford it.
It’s all turned out OK, in the aggregate, though.
I still do plenty of ship-level coding (but for much smaller scopes). I really like it.
I dunno, it sucks and its painful. You're constantly worried and people who at first try to support you then get pissed off at you for something you can't really control. I hope you can find your way through it.
Can you help me understand it too? I don’t get it either.
As for me, and most motorsport fans I know, it's very much about the sport and skill involved. Sure, there's other aspects to it (people like their drivers/teams/etc) but I would say it's primarily for the sport, not the stories. I can't really speak to any other sports though.
Coping by trying my best to become the type of person that I aspire to be. Quit weed, alcohol, caffeine. Lost 20lbs of fat and put on some muscle. Run 6 days a week, lift 3-4 days a week. Meal prep all my foods and getting into a good routine about those things.
Taught myself Rust and ECS and tried my hand at building a game. Built an Arduino prototype of some hardware a friend wanted to see exist, but ended up not trying to take it further. Built a website to help people play a video game better, it became popular while the game was trending, and made ~3-6k/mo running ads on the site. Went to Burning Man for the first time.
Now I'm kind of out of things that sound fun/purposeful and having a purpose dropped into my lap by working on an ongoing project with an existing team sounds more appealing than it did when I left the work world. So, slowly going back that way and hoping to hold onto all my good vibes and positive habits as I do so.
It's not exactly what I expected to spend three years of unemployment doing. I wish I felt more "accomplished" in how I used my time. But idk. Just kept myself busy with things that sounded meaningful in the moment. Now making money sounds more appealing than having more free time so hopefully jumping back in isn't too much of a shock.
I learned react, go. Played videogames and had a child. Things are going well.
Part of me is afraid that too much time off the market will make me not fit for the workforce anymore but tbh I feel like my mental health really needed this.
Now I'm faced with a dilemma. Go back to my home country where I probably could retire now at 40 or stay here and try to get back to work. Trump administration has been making my decision easier by the day.
May want to consider that things won’t stay the same price for 40 years?
https://hsph.harvard.edu/news/is-coffee-good-or-bad-for-your...
CYP1A2
Increased heart attack risk: A 2006 study found that slow metabolizers who drank four or more cups of coffee per day had a 64% increased risk of a nonfatal myocardial infarction (heart attack) compared to those drinking less than one cup daily. The risk was even higher for slow metabolizers under age 50, who experienced more than four times the risk
No increased risk for fast metabolizers: In the same study, fast metabolizers did not experience an increased risk of heart attack, even with high coffee consumption.
https://www.geneticlifehacks.com/caffeine-metabolism-and-you...
Like the other commenter alluded to, if you consume caffeine and your BP remains really elevated past two hours, you’re probably a slow metabolizer.
My reason for wanting to quit caffeine was related to willpower and self-control. I wanted a stronger mind-body connection where I'd readily act on my desires rather than delegating to "I'll do that once I feel properly caffeinated." I was finding that I wasn't doing much with myself after work hours because my energy levels felt low once caffeine wore off and because I wasn't training myself to be comfortable doing things even when I didn't "feel" like doing them. Those behaviors made me uncomfortable with myself, but I never felt like I had the time to address them while working a full-time job. At best, I'd get two day "detoxes" over the weekend and then hop right back on the bean juice Monday morning.
The difference is that my anxiety is more interesting (to me) than distressing. I can sometimes leverage it as a mechanism for change.
Granted - this also possible because my anxiety (currently) falls within a range. Turn it up a ½doz notches and I probably won't be mining it for usefulness.
fwiw: what you did is pretty impressive and hella brave, respect
5 cups of coffee per day is moderate?
Typically, when someone cites these numbers they're referring to total caffeine intake under 400mg. It would be 5 small cups of mild coffee.
You can exceed this number with a single drink from Starbucks.
edit: So it is not only about health but also about satisfaction and well being.
Worst case, you can work 8hrs during the day and study 3hrs in the evening with or without Red Bull: in both cases you’ll end up burnt out, you can just force it for a few months more with drugs.
In my experience, the people who benefit from quitting caffeine were either using far too much of it, were drinking it too late in the day (interferes with sleep), or were using it to cover up other problems like poor sleep habits.
The person drinking a cup or two of green tea in the mornings after going to bed on time is going to have a different relationship than the person drinking very strong coffee drinks all day long to stay awake because they've been scrolling on their phone until 2AM every night instead of trying to sleep on time.
It's enough work as it is staying fed, hydrated and getting a solid 8 hours of sleep. 20 minutes a day on getting your coffee fix is like 2 hours a week you could put to better purposes. Your article doesn't quantify the benefits, it just says there's some, that leads me to suspect that they're fairly minimal. Maybe getting an extra 2 hours of sleep or exercise would do more for your health.
Idk man I think a lot of people here would be proud to have knocked off even one of those things on that list. The lifestyle changes alone are huge accomplishments. I also wouldn’t downplay the significance of spending a little time doing nothing. Probably added some years to your life
It's really fulfilling to be able to show people your work and have them play with it. It's so different than like.. spec'ing out a new database schema and then building some APIs over it. They're both coding, but one's a little harder to have a convo about at the dinner table.
Rust is such a mature language to use coming from a JavaScript background. I don't think it makes the best language for writing good games because it's too challenging to write bad prototypes you intend to throw away. You have to refactor frequently and code-compile-run loop is so slow. The lack of quick prototyping discourages me from playing around with ideas that might not work out and that makes for a worse game. However, as a programmer, Rust is an incredibly satisfying language to write in. Everything you do always feels very technically correct. The Rust quip that "if it compiles then it probably works" is very accurate and is a continuous source of pleasure.
In principle, I don't see why not. In practice, yeah I can see it. In both cases, can't know without checking, and I haven't. Bevy is pretty cool though!
My drive-by suggestions would be more along the lines of https://github.com/mattwparas/steel, or the very ad-hoc embedded language of https://github.com/elkowar/eww, or perhaps most pertinently https://kdl.dev/
Maybe one of those would be minimal enough for the rest of the engine to not manage to get your way, as frameworks are known to do. As always, happy hacking!
It helps with commitment and pursuing a deeper learning of the activity instead of doing quick and dirty stuff in my experience. Just don't expect it (or aim for it) to be a steam top-seller, my aim is usually to have at least one other stranger get some amount of value out of what I produce.
Not to say there isn't a place for quick and dirty projects, of course. Bespoke 3D models to fix things around the house are my current favourite category for that.
Windows just feels irredeemably mediocre at this point. Maybe Windows 12 will improve things, but I’ve been pretty down on 11.
After I left, the PE firm finished the ~failed merger, flipped the company to another buyer, and the PE firm placed the CTO at another company. I've remained friends with the CTO and we have a monthly/bi-monthly check-in. He was very supportive of my side-projects and would've helped fund anything that I said had legs, but is equally eager to work with me again if given the opportunity. The company he's working at is going through a reorg and a position he thinks I'd be a good fit for (admittedly a growth opportunity) should open up.
If that falls through and I'm not able to get a warm intro somewhere then you're absolutely right. I'd focus on applying for IC positions, but clearly communicate that I'm interested in taking on leadership ASAP.
There is no "accomplishment". Get off twitter and instagram, and seek contentedness. Everything else is creative self-deceit or comparison games on a rubric that is artificial and asinine.
No one actually cares about your title. Or rather, you probably know that them validating your title isn't really what's going to matter to you? Or is it? Why?
I say this with love, I spent a lot of time (albeit voluntarily) unemployed asking myself such questions. Good luck.
You pay for connects and most proposals aren't even read.
Then if you do land work, you pay a % to the platform.
Seems to me like it should be one or the other not both.
Check this out. By directing your attention, you should be able to flip the polarities of either circuit and/or the "cyst" (i.e. the connection your mind makes between the two, before proceeding to disavow it; speculated transmissible). If works anything like a logic gate which determines the content of your spontaneous reaction and/or reflection to contradictory percepts and/or concepts, by messing with its truth table you should be able to switch between selective deafness, a Freudian slip, stuttering, and the one you're currently having.
Source: never sat, just hung out. "You thought radical freedom is the answer? Let's see how you handle being locked up with all other people who thought radical freedom was the answer!" is a pretty fucked up basis for a society and also a thing.
The only time I've ever seen "jail" spelled this way was in Elden Ring, and I had to look it up to see how it's supposed to be pronounced to learn that it's an Old English way of spelling "jail" and is pronounced like "jail".
Curious if you've been playing a lot of Elden Ring or if there's another reason you chose this spelling.
but yeah making a cop stub their toe is gonna make anyone have a bad time. im sorry the justice system is failing you.
Or at least realize the existence of it happening all around us (crim recs, credit reports, ever harsher laws driven by crim-just industry lobbyists, etc).
Coping - generally fine - helped by building up a new network of friends and doing things like going clubbing and going to music festivals and giving talks and running voluntary orgs. Just been out for beers with my mentee; he will be giving a talk at a session that I am running tomorrow with the local council.
Where would you start?
Curious, what bit are you working on to help fix this? Research as you’re doing a PhD?
Reading “Reinventing Fire” currently. So much needs to change, but it feels like there is zero political will to address this crisis.
There are so many things to work on, some can be tackled as a start-up, which is HN territory! My last start-up developed a domestic heating control to save energy by setting back temperatures a little when a room is empty and likely to stay empty for a while. There's >500k units installed.
My PhD is finding how to best improve decarbonisaton of UK home heating (~14% of UK GHGs). Mainly by replacing gas boilers with heat pumps. Did my own at the end of last year.
It's been tough. The hardest part about being unemployed is it is very hard to structure your days because work is no longer the thing that is forcing you to get up, get out, go to bed on time, etc. It's also a strange feeling having to spend from your savings/emergency fund without money coming in, you feel bad and guilty for doing so, it's weird.
I'm changing careers. I've always liked teaching, so I'm doing volunteer english teaching while preparing to apply to go back to school in order to get a Masters in Education.
In the mean time, I'm also doing other small things. Learning about AI, going to board game meetups, doing some traveling, overall it's not the most fun part of my life, but I'm treating it as I will look back on this and realize this was necessary.
I've lost that identity, and despite extensive therapy, meds, etc. I still haven't found myself yet.
I know I'll be okay, however.
Stay frosty. Things will work out. Cheers!
One thing I worry about is getting a stroke or become blind, paralyzed or similar.
Having lost people around me or seen them fall seriously ill , made me realize things can change so quickly.
I admire ppl like yourself who keep going.
Or people like Paul De Gelder, who lost the majority of their limbs and then just keep going and seem to thrive.
I wonder how ppl like that change their mindset after such life events. What happens in the brain? Is it via therapy or effectively deciding to make the best with the cards you’ve been dealt.
From what you wrote, it sounds like you haven’t lost a core pillar of your identity, which is a positive mindset.
Wishing you the best on your new path ahead.
He's been in an intensive care neuro unit for the past month. I visited about 10 days ago and he was having trouble talking, and... I suspect it might be long lasting or permanent.
We'd just spoken the Friday before, and had a meeting planned that morning. It all changed instantly, and there's no going back. It shook me up some, and I'm not affected at all, really, but seeing this happen to someone you know directly is... hard to take (for me anyway).
The irony is that it takes a lot more personal discipline to remain productive without any sort of feedback loop, but the unemployed are presumptively regarded as flawed and lazy :-)
Best thing I’ve found for structure is renting a desk in a coworking space
Cheapest are taking a walk at the same time and putting on “work” clothing
I've spent the last two years volunteering a local bike co-op and getting way to into bike building and cycling generally. Additionally, I spend a lot of time doing what I can to help my local trans community (that I am a part of). This work has gifted me with perspectives I would never have seen otherwise, and has really helped my organizational and soft skills.
Tech wise, I only do hobby projects now, and it's really wonderful in some ways. Having the professional experience I do, but the free time to work on projects that I want has helped me learn so much and really push my understanding of all sorts of technology.
When the job market eventually gets better, I will be able to approach it with a confidence that I didn't feel was earned before. That's really my cope lol
---
Fwiw
https://elanora.lol/resume resume@elanora.lol
Not asking to be mean, asking because I am afraid of that happening to me and looking for perspective.
My impression from the resume is that she's relatively junior with limited experience, but not zero, and her experience is in unsexy tech stacks, and she did a bootcamp. So she is fighting am uphill battle in a tough market. But I don't get the impression that she's unprofessional or immature because of the whimsical website.
I'm any case, I wish her luck, and I believe that there are roles out there that would be a good fit for her and she can gain more experience. She just needs that first break... Which is hard to get
Best time of my life honestly, after 15 years of working. I realized I get 0 pleasure from working and have plenty of things to occupy me if I wasn’t. I learned I don’t need a purpose in life. What I really love is running, woodworking, reading, eating, lifting weights, traveling and spending time with my family.
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