The English Language Doesn't Exist – It's Just French That's Badly Pronounced
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The article argues that English is heavily influenced by French, sparking a lively discussion on the origins and characteristics of the English language.
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I think that glitchy is not used meaningfully. A huddle of glitchy passengers, perhaps, if they are all androids.
https://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=fr&text=That%20jumbo%...
Google translate is actually making an eminently reasonable guess. Filipino languages are full of transliterated Spanish loan words. The syllabic structure of the sentences, though it still looks like gibberish to me, also bear more than a passing resemblance to Filipino languages.
The Germanic core still generally gets used by all in high stress environments.
And yes, certain situations do tend to favor the Germanic portions to include especially coarser words.
Under fight / violence / battle conditions, the active vocabulary is Germanic, and not lacking in expressive power, nor subject to misunderstanding.
France is sort-of at the crossroads of Europe, so it's no surprise that there's a little bit of everything in the French language. This is particularly visible in place-names of Normandy [2].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indo-European_language...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_toponymy
FYI: The above sentence contains 7 words that come from old french/latin, and 7 that come from old english/german
It might be seen as a dialect of German but with the heavy influence English had on the German language in the past decades it's more that German is like an English dialect now.
English is more closely related to Frisian than German.
Englandbros - we ride at dawn.
Imagine making this claim to a proud French language partisan. You'd have to rush them to the hospital.
English adopted that position after WWII.
Trying to learn Spanish in high school, it was genders that confused me the most. Safe to say I just remember some words at this point.
The commonly cited example of referring to ships as 'she' is simply an affectation, grammatically a ship is an it.
Or can you provide another example I may have overlooked?
The English dictionary is also about 50% larger than the French Dictionary. The length of the German dictionary is irrelevant because: Hottentotenstrottelmutterattentäterlattengitterwetterkotterbeutelratte
It is very frequent in English to use both the French word and the German word for the same thing in different situation.
Beef (French: bœuf) / Cow (Germanic) Pork (French: porc) / Pig/Swine (Germanic) Mutton (French: mouton) / Sheep (Germanic) Veal (French: veau) / Calf (Germanic) Venison (French: venaison) / Deer (Germanic) Poultry (French: poulet) / Chicken/Fowl (Germanic) Purchase (French) / Buy (Germanic) Commence (French) / Begin (Germanic) Inquire (French) / Ask (Germanic) Receive (French) / Get (Germanic) Odor (French) / Smell (Germanic) Aroma (French, positive) / Stench (Germanic, negative) Cardiac (French/Latin) / Heart (Germanic) Ocular (French/Latin) / Eye (Germanic) Dental (French/Latin) / Tooth (Germanic)
Old English was a Germanic language, later heavily influenced by Norman/French vocabulary. French of course descended from Latin, and Latin and Germanic languages both belong to the Indo-European family of languages. (The "C" language of humanity, if you will.)
English is the result of Norman soldiers trying to woo Anglo-Saxon barmaids, and for that task was, evidently, effective enough.
English decending from french you say! The nerve! (I assure you, my 6th grade english teacher would correct you thusly)
Not that it matters, given that we are talking about this in English, which has become the lingua franca in an amusing twist of fate, thanks to the East India Company.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_of_Roland
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chanson_de_Roland
If you’ve got a specific agenda, say x > y, you can be very selective about success criteria to suit yourself.
In this particular case of English and French, the reality is that few modern French speakers can read the Song of Roland. “Resembles x much more” is pretty irrelevant because it cherry-picks similarities while glossing over differences. One can equally say Old English’s “and forgyf us ure gyltas” is pretty readable, but really you’re scraping the bottom of the argument barrel.
Also glossing over an older literary tradition because the language mutated in response to a new political reality (conquest) is ... curious.
Also
> something understandable by modern French speakers
The Song of Roland, used as an example in a previous comment, doesn’t qualify, and actually is yet another reason why this line of argument is pretty sad.
The Beowulf manuscript dates from around 975 CE and is written in what might be better termed Anglo-Saxon. How much can you understand from this random sentence: "þa me þæt gelærdon leode mine, þa selestan, snotere ceorlas"? ("So my vassals advised me well…) I personally can't understand a single word or even relate it in any way to the English I know.
On the other hand, the Sequence of Saint Eulalia was composed in "Old French" in 880 BCE and seems rather intelligible to me. I also just took a random sentence from the Chanson de Roland (c. 1100 BC) and can understand all of it: "Seignurs, vos en ireiz. Branches d’olive en voz mains portereiz, Si me direz a Carlemagne le rei Pur le soen Deu qu’il ait mercit de mei." I'd even go so far as to say that's closer to modern French than Shakespearean English despite being written in Anglo-Norman … Which also means it should probably count as being English literature if Beowulf qualifies…
I guess the lesson here is simply to remember that reality is always a lot more granular than we first expect and that any sweeping judgements on languages, countries, etc. over the span of millennia make very little sense. By that criteria, the linked article was pure clickbait to begin with.
Hwæt! Wé Gárdena in géardagum
þéodcyninga þrym gefrúnon
hú ðá æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scéfing sceaþena þréatum
monegum maégþum meodosetla oftéah
It's a long stretch to say it's the same language as modern English, so shouldn't be counted as "literature in the English language".
It could however count as literature written by the English people.
For a comparison, these are the first 5 lines of Chanson de Roland
CARLES li reis, nostre emperere magnes,
Set anz tuz pleins ad estet en Espaigne:
Tresqu’en la mer cunquist la tere altaigne.
N’i ad castel ki devant lui remaigne;
Mur ne citet n’i est remés a fraindre,
Relative to modern French and English, the French of Chanson de Roland is comparable to the English of Chaucer.
Not that it’s a competition or anything. But it’s interesting to see people make assumptions about easily-looked-up stuff.
At least that is the conventional view. Apparently, according to this author, it actually descends from French. But that is a very fringe take.
This is why modern english is a mix.
Clearly an attempt to take the shine off of "that sub language english" which keeps pestering their ears.
From what I was repeatedly taught by my English, english teacher, all the latin loanwords came from when the Romans were hanging around the Isles. "They left more than walls!", she'd say.
Take care now, lest her ghost rise from the grave to correct your slanders against her beloved english.
no
Well yes and no. English generally diverged much more from the common ancestor than pretty much every other Germanic language.
Yeah other examples like Maltese which is technically an Arabic dialect but with half the vocabularies coming from Romance/Italian languages.
When someone in the upper class wanted boeuf, they wanted the meat of a cow - not the cow itself. And so beef entered the English language as the meat. This extended to other animals. In general, the word for the meat in English is the French word for the animal and the word for the animal is derived from the German word.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/beef and https://www.etymonline.com/word/cow
This also extended to the language law and things that the upper classes (rather than the commoners) dealt with. When the common English (germanic) did have to deal with those topics, they used the French words and those words were brought into English.
What is more accurate to say is that English and German descend from a common ancestor: Proto-Germanic. Saying English descended from German would be just as wrong as saying German descended from English.
The fact that "German" and "Germanic" sound similar does not mean that they are the same thing, nor that modern standard German is somehow the official representative of the Germanic languages.
You are welcome, and I will see myself out.. lol =3
I mean, you too can have an infinite vocabulary if you just leave out the spaces between words.
The article claims different proportions: "Half of all English vocabulary comes from those three Romance roots, compared to less than a third that comes from Germanic sources."
Still only half correct, but based of those proportions it is more correct than claiming English is a Germanic language.
It's not clear where the quite significant remaining proportion of the English language comes from. Colonial languages?
The real point of the essay discussed in the article is that the French origin of (part of) the English language is Norman French, which was distinctly different from Parisian French and has pretty much vanished from Normandy since. So the argument is that English might be as close to Norman French as French is. The influence of Norman French on the English language was downplayed for political reasons, argues the author.
Ultimately words of Germanic origins might be fewer but more frequently used. The grammar is also potentially closer to the Germanic origins than to the French ones? Let the linguists debate this forever I guess.
English has compound nouns too, you know: "Coffee table", "finance department", "wine cellar".
German dictionaries have very similar rules for including them as English dictionaries; they tend to include them when there's a common use that isn't immediately clear.
If it gets to the dictionary, English often has a corresponding word as well: "Handschuh" -> "glove", "Zahnarzt" -> "dentist", "Hausaufgabe" -> "homework", "Fussball" -> "football" (or soccer if you're American or Australian), "Sonnenbrille" -> "Sunglasses". Note that the last 3 have basically the same morphology as their corresponding English words.
In the end, the word count of the German dictionary isn't so different: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dictionaries_by_number...
Most Frenchs are incredulous about this because they somehow think their lang is the best thing around.
The reason English is difficult to learn is many generation 2 languages words are no longer directly correlated with the original meanings. There were even writers that made fun of what English would sound like to an unbiased observer. Don't ask your LLM "is there a Seahorse emoji"... =3
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darmok
> It is very frequent in English to use both the French word and the German word for the same thing in different situation.
It's kind of like in genetics: if a gene gets duplicated, it creates the opportunity for one copy to evolve to do something else. Likewise with language: having two words for the same thing allows their meanings to diverge without loss to cover more shades of meaning.
That said, as a Frenchman who has to speak English every day, I can assure you that English has long since become its own thing!
Their claim to the French throne was based on the rules of succession and an argument over them (arising from those intertwinned lineages).
An interesting fact is that King Richard I (Sean Connery in Robin Hood with Kevin Costner)'s mother was from South West France and he grew up there, and so he spoke French and Occitan but not really English.
[1]
It's really sad to see English language and words replace native ones, especially if your own language in many cases have better precision and quite frankly reads better. Recently I listened to a "Danish" podcast, about Charlie Kirk. I put Danish in " " because one of the hosts, a native Dane, struggles severely with expressing her thoughts and observation without the use of English.
English is easy to criticize. It doesn't have all the letters it needs. It doesn't have compound noun. A significant part of the vocabulary is just borrow from Norse, German or French (and pronounced wrong). It is however VERY popular, billions speak it, and that's a quality all on it's own.
The popularity of English has little or nothing to do with any facts about how its grammatical system works, and a lot to do with the geopolitical situation of the past few centuries where the UK and then the US were globally important powers.
There is no such thing as purity or correctness in language - those concepts are farcical. Every second of every day language evolves with the words and pronunciations of the people currently using it. If enough people spell or pronounce the "wrong" way, it becomes the "right" way.
French today is slightly different than it was yesterday, and the day before, and 50 years ago.
There certainly is, in the case of French and other languages that have a central authority defining what is pure and correct.
Defining something as pure by fiat seems nonsensical, but the world is strange that way.
Especially if it applies outside the jurisdiction. Why should the Parisian government get to declare that Quebecois is impure?
In actual practice, French is about as regulated as English is (i.e., not at all) and French people use tons of loanwords from various languages, especially English and Arabic.
In other words, they recognize the Académie as the authority on purity, and then reject purity.
IME they are binding on French learners who, instead of being taugh French as she is spoke (haha) are taught French à la Académie Française.
They are tasked with maintaining an "official" dictionary, but have only published 9 editions so far, in over 300 years. The last one, that was just finished (only took 45 years) misses very important words like "web", "mail" or "homophobie" because they're supposedly too recent, but somehow includes "woke". In a French dictionary. What a fucking joke.
"Authentic" ... I'm not opposed to the word, but I want to know the context / time period they're shooting for.
The range of possibilities with food and food evolution and influences can be very wide.
German was designed by a programmer.
• French (including Old French: 11.66%; Anglo-French: 1.88%; and French: 14.77%): 28.30%;
• Latin (including modern scientific and technical Latin): 28.24%;
• Germanic languages (including Old English, Proto-Germanic and others: 20.13%;
• Old Norse: 1.83%; Middle English: 1.53%; Dutch: 1.07%; excluding Germanic words borrowed from a Romance language): 25%;[a]
• Greek: 5.32%;
• no etymology given: 4.04%;
• derived from proper names: 3.28%; and
• all other languages: less than 1%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign-language_influences_in...
Also, one could argue French itself is an agglomeration of Vulgar Latin (87%) as well as its own Frankish Germanic roots (10%), and a few of Gaulish and Breton Celtic origin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_French_words_of_German...
This skews the numbers because there are thousands (probably tens of thousands) of scientific terms, names of species, etc., that probably shouldn't be counted here if you're looking at the origin of the language and that is because we continue to use Latin for new scientific terms or names of species today. In other words, they're not Latin words that have been absorbed into English, they're just Latin words period.
> 25% old Norse? That is almost certainly not correct.
IMO, a much better metric is frequency-weighted; that is, taking some corpus of real English and counting the words in it, rather than weighting "every English word" with the value 1.
If you do this frequency-weighted analysis, Old English is far ahead of French and Latin combined (especially in colloquial speech; they're closer in formal writing).
The article already mentions that the structure is definitely germanic in origin. Next are the words. Some are adopted from other languages, but many more have roots in Germanic and Latin. The reason is that Romans invaded Britain some 2000 years ago. Afterwards, Latin was spoken in learned circles until the renaissance and even later.
When French became the language of diplomacy, IIRC at the time of Napoleon, only that's when French became a language of note. That's when the "sofisticated" words like veal, venison etc. enter the English language.
But, even all that aside, my native language is Slavic. I speak both English and German, and a very little bit of French. In my limited personal view, German and English have much more in common than French and English.
Still, I stand by my assessment: while it's clear that influences are there to some of the words, it's clearly more germanic. Just as we say today that French is a romanic language and English is germanic. I see no evidence here to counter this common classification.
This sounds like either unfalsifiable bullshit being portrayed as scholarship, or deliberate trolling by a French guy who likes French and wants to mock English-speakers. I'd have more respect for the latter, since at least that's just making fun of a more powerful neighboring culture (a fun pastime for everyone) rather than trying to assert real facts about the world.
The only thing that made French and English afterwards the lingua francas of the world was the commerce/trade and innovation offered by their speakers.
We could all be using Spanish or Chinese as the lingua Franca if either of them had more influence in the world.
I sat down in a restaurant in the historic part of the city, and the menu was loaded with "apostrophe s" and "le Hamburger". I then looked at my server and said, in plain English, "My high school French teacher used to make fun of this as 'franglais'".
The server then laughed and told me, "oh, we mix English into French here all the time and don't care."
The next day I walked by a youth American football league in a city park.
Even my mother's household, which was Quebec-French speaking in the US, would say "poe-tat" instead of "pomme de terre." ("Potato" with a French accent instead of the literal "apple of the earth" word that I learned in school.)
Fun fact: this passage is somehow excised from the English translation of the book used by Project Gutenberg and Wikisource! (you can see it in the original French version, chapter 68: "l'anglais n'est que du français mal prononcé")
It details the historical reasons why English is completely broken in terms of spelling and pronunciation. It makes sense of why it’s such a mess. Light read, kinda fun (said the history nerd who loves language).
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/55332395-highly-irregula...
--James D. Nicoll
If English doesn't exist on its own, French doesn't either. Nor does Latin, Greek or Sanskrit. All of these are incremental variations or dialects of some other language.
https://www.uni-goettingen.de/en/477070.html
https://brill.com/view/journals/ldc/6/1/article-p1_1.xml
* see what I did there