Social Anxiety Isn't About Being Liked

The metaphor went something like this: men making fun of each other are actuall y showing that they understand their friends deeply, because they know how to stab without hitting an organ.

That is - in order to make fun of someone without actually hurting them, you have to know which kinds of topics not to touch for any given friend. You skip the "your mom" joke for the friend with parent issues, and so on.

On the other hand, though, I have very often see my fellow enginerd types badly misread this dynamic. I've seen guys come onto an established team where some mutual teasing has evolved, then fall flat when they try to emulate that it - because they haven't yet earned the depth of relationship that makes it OK.

It kind of reminds me of another "nerd social fallacy" I've often observed, which I guess I'd name: "I can't be a bully." I think a lot of times people who've grown up dealing with bullying don't realize when they've become one. Sometimes the mutual teasing degrades into one guy just being a dick to the other.

In my perception, the stereotypically female way is, if you're fat, nobody calls you fat. They're careful using the word around you. They might even tell you you're not fat. To me, that makes it seem like the friendship depends on the obvious lie that you're not fat, which makes it seem inevitable that it's going to end. One day they're going to make some acknowledgment of the evident truth that you're fat, and that's your signal that they're done with you and the friendship is over. To me, it feels like the truth is being kept in reserve for the day when they're going to shank you with it.

That's my (male) perspective. I'd rather have friends who acknowledge the truth about me and make me feel okay about it than friends who act like the truth about me isn't compatible with friendship and inclusion.

On an intellectual level, I get the (stereotypically) female perspective, too -- I get that it doesn't seem friendly to constantly remind someone of their shortcomings, and that a friend group should give someone an escape from oppressive social perceptions. But that doesn't resonate with me as much emotionally.

https://www.google.com/search?q=women+are+just+horribly+crue...

There's also culture at play. I don't know if men affectionately dissing their friends is universal but there's plenty of related things like:

In Japanese culture you don't brag about co-workers or family to outsiders. Outsiders you treat with respect. Insiders you don't. The fact that you don't get the more polite treatment is proof that you're an insider. It's a common scene in stories where someone asks to stop being treated like an outsider by specifically asking for the less polite language. You can also watch the ribbing man to man, man to woman, woman to man, woman to woman. I don't know if there is data on which is more common.

I have women friends who will play like this with me. It can reveal insights that neither of us were clear on without the other bringing it to light.

Of course it can be one sided too, and it turns into bullying. I think context matters and even if you’re being bullied, it’s still revealing if you are able to see beyond the emotion. You’re not your looks, your body, your mind, your bank account, your friend group, etc… Your worth is beyond these things. I hope you find that someday!

Sometimes those women are actually making very accurate observation about relationships of involved guys.

It is not exactly rare when "it was just a joke" is entirely dishonest and when went on was actually attempt to put down another guy.

I seek out the social groups where people try to help eachother and where most of the conversation is towards pushing a common goal or helping each other’s pursuits. That way someone saying something negative is a signal, and the negative can be addressed. You can only move fast and in the right direction with clear signaling. If the signal is diluted by people with low self esteem who would rather belittle those who do than do the doing, then you need to clear the signal.

Once you recognize status transactions ... they are absolutely everywhere, in every single interaction.

I've identified two approaches to this situation. One is to take the insult graciously, as though it's feedback:

"Careful: you could put someone's eye out with that!"

"Oh! Thanks for the reminder." (adjust the position of your head, as appropriate for your extremely large and dangerous nose)

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The other is to take whatever they said, and exaggerate it. This produces really good comebacks. (It's important to insist upon this point, regardless of any evidence you might receive to the contrary.)

"Careful: you could put someone's eye out with that!"

"Oh, could I? Well, your entire face is bad."

If they respond with another insult, repeat the same strategy. They'll notice what you're doing after the second or third attempt, and then it will turn from "this person's bad at comebacks" into "this person's (pretending to be) bad at comebacks and it's funny".

"My face is bad? Is that the best you could come up with?"

"Your face is so bad that it makes everyone else's faces bad, too."

"But… that means your face is also bad."

"And whose fault is that? It's your fault. Specifically, the fault of your face. Which is bad."

"Still means you've got a big nose."

"Well you've got a small nose."

"No I don't. We've got the same sized noses."

"Thus invalidating your previous aspersion that my nose is unusually large. Who's bad at comebacks now?"

"Still you."

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There's a third approach, if the insult is disguised as faux-concern: pretend you're taking it seriously, while exaggerating the characteristic they're concerned about.

"Hey, you having trouble seeing past that, mate?"

"Oh, no, it's alright: most of my vision is unobstructed." / "I've got some tape in my bag if I need it." / "It's no worse than binoculars."

I also always start and focus on myself; I make jokes at my own expense often. A big part of my personality is a strange juxtaposition of bravado and self deprecation. I will joke about how amazing I am and how much of a failure I am at the same time.

It seems to work? I think people like me, generally? I don’t know man, I just wing it! I have no idea what I am doing, but I am also pretty great at not knowing what I am doing.

The article is definitely a mental health topic. A little harmless stage fright before a presentation is not real clinical generalized anxiety and affects most normal people.

My wife is exact opposite. She is an introvert who does not have a problem with approaching people. Relationships drain her energy, she can't chat to even a close friend for more than a couple of hours, but approaching a complete stranger when necessary or she wants to? That's not a problem for her at all, she just does not usually want it, and she loves her alone times.

It's less that I need them to like me or fear being disliked and more that I am just way too conscious of the stakes and the social interaction that's happening, which causes my brain to sort of freeze up. It feels like when I used to play tennis in high school. I'd do great at practice, then freeze up and barely remember how to hit the ball in games because the stakes on each point felt so high.

If I'm around some good friends it completely goes away. If I have hung around the person enough (even without directly talking to them), it goes away. I've also had random days where I don't feel the performance anxiety and performed really well in those situations (and coincidentally some of those days I'd meet a new group of friends or a girlfriend). It's extremely frustrating. Xanax makes the performance anxiety go away completely but slows me down cognitively so I become much less witty and interesting to talk to.

I think is a big piece. I have social anxiety and I have a tendency not to answer with what I'm thinking but what I think they want to hear because it's more predictable. This gets amplified tenfold in interviews. In an interview, I know that they're looking for a specific answer when they ask a question, but also that the answer differs from interviewer to interviewer. It's like there's this sub-process that is constantly running trying to figure out what to say, but in some situations it ends up locking up the system because it's using too many resources due to the constraints.

Every new school, new job, new environment has been a struggle until I made friends in natural ways (either I had to wait someone approached me, or it has been through activities like shared home work etc.)

But moving to a new country has been a disaster in terms of relationships. I'm already very anxious, but I now need to approach people in a foreign language and there's no school-like environment where relationships form naturally. Clubs and events do not help as they are at most an hour a week so nothing like the school.

I am sure there are many people like me, but I doubt it is the majority. I am just back from my kids birthday and as far as I could see, among 20, there were only one or two other adults who did not speak to anyone, majority somehow has less challenge.

A good example of what I mean is your first suggestion, choosing a less triggering explanation for teleology. The idea of trigger words as we understand them, and the need to shield people from them, is not a universal cultural phenomenon. The suggestion feels a bit like visiting a country where they drive on the left side of the road and suggesting they try and drive on the right instead. Maybe the suggestion is good! But maybe not, without cultural context, the suggestion reads mostly like just asking for things to be made more familiar to you.

I personally liked the intellectual aspect of it, though I also agree that the emotional component should be there as well.

Fair warning, I'm American and I realize you are European, and there are obvious cultural differences that may be at play.

The main problem I have with you is the attitude. Very black-and-white thinking, as if you seemingly just know everything, about everything, which I don't think can be true for anybody really.

I think it makes you actually appear less intelligent, although it is obvious that you are intelligent, but it makes people think things like "pshh what does this guy know, acting like he wrote the book on this subject". But lower intelligence people are masters of black-and-white thinking, and see constructive feedback as criticism, unable to use it to improve themselves, which I don't think you want to be seen as.

Of course, there are people who criticize because they're haters and get a kick out of it. Despite their hatred, their criticism may still be valid.

But most of your comments IMO just seem to be very matter-of-fact, often seemingly blind to important context/nuances that make the answer not really as simple as you make it sound. And when people ask for sources, you often do not respond. I don't think I've ever seen you admit you were wrong either.

In fact this is the biggest problem I have with people in general (not just you), this kind of dogmatism, the black and white thinking. To me it shows a lack of empathy and humility, often those people are also very quick to anger, and I think it shows a lack of critical thinking, as if you somehow have all the answers and are infallible, that there can be no other possible valid perspectives or opinions, I think this is a rampant problem on IRC/the Internet and indeed life in general.

I also notice that a lot of your comments get downvoted, which I assume may be a combination of both unpopular opinions (or that they are stated in a way people disagree with), and just haters that will always downvote certain people.

All that being said, I realize I'm not perfect either, and I have absolutely fallen trap to all these same things and more, and for anyone who I have wronged by it, I apologize.