Microsoft Has a Problem: Lack of Demand for Its AI Products
Key topics
Microsoft's AI endeavors are facing a surprising slump in demand, sparking a lively discussion about the tech giant's branding and sales strategies. Commenters are poking fun at Microsoft's proliferation of "Copilot"-branded products, with some joking that the name has become a confusing catch-all. Others are pointing out that a chart shared to illustrate Microsoft's revenue streams is outdated, with some digging up more recent data to provide a clearer picture. As the conversation unfolds, it becomes clear that Microsoft's AI push is facing a credibility crisis, with some commenters sarcastically suggesting gimmicky solutions to boost sales.
Snapshot generated from the HN discussion
Discussion Activity
Very active discussionFirst comment
10m
Peak period
137
0-6h
Avg / period
20
Based on 160 loaded comments
Key moments
- 01Story posted
Dec 8, 2025 at 11:54 AM EST
about 1 month ago
Step 01 - 02First comment
Dec 8, 2025 at 12:04 PM EST
10m after posting
Step 02 - 03Peak activity
137 comments in 0-6h
Hottest window of the conversation
Step 03 - 04Latest activity
Dec 12, 2025 at 1:07 PM EST
26 days ago
Step 04
Generating AI Summary...
Analyzing up to 500 comments to identify key contributors and discussion patterns
Want the full context?
Jump to the original sources
Read the primary article or dive into the live Hacker News thread when you're ready.
Helpful chart to draw conclusions
Copilot and AI are not on the list anymore.
But this also means they end up with average products. They don't have the talent to do something exceptional.
This has worked well for them when they can just come in and copy something (say AWS in Azure) and not pay the innovation cost, but AI seems different for some reason, perhaps in the same way search was. You need the top 20% in order to really be successful.
Plenty of SV is building below average products with exceptional talent.
This is where they are failing.
> Plenty of SV is building below average products with exceptional talent.
Yes, you can hire exceptional talent and give them poor directions, resulting in poor products.
But to hire mediocre talent and still produce competitive products you must have an unfair advantage of some sort. The Windows and Office monopolies gave Microsoft that unfair advantage. But it is becoming clear that this unfair advantage does not extend to AI.
This is such a BS attitude. A person’s ability doesn’t map directly with their salary.
The very best developers I’ve ever worked with? Small companies outside of major cities (for life style reasons). Not everyone is trying to max their income; some want a good job doing something they love.
Small companies can offer more meaningful impact, if you’re not the type who likes being a tiny cog or commanding armies.
This attitude is how you maximize your TC.
This is an amusing response. I personally have chased the TC (to an extent), climbed the ladder, and sit at the top (below the c-suite). This isn’t cope, it’s a genuine reflection based on many years of experience having worked for multinationals in various countries.
Perhaps compensation should be a reflection of ability, but the real world is far more nuanced.
That's only if you're only looking at the top 10% or w/e of the market in the first place. New grad software engineer salaries at MS are higher than the median software engineer salary in the US.
Occam's razor says they are just bad at English grammar because it isn't their native language/dialect and their education probably wasn't that great.
It's literally a platitude. It's like the saying 'when the going gets tough, the tough get going': it's reallyemorable and descriptive and is maybe a good guideline in many situations.
But using it to evaluate the tensile strength of various metals according to their velocity would be wild, because it had never pretended to be anything like a rule. It's not like theory of gravity or 'I before e except after c', which are based on actual analysis and results.
Legit assuming that everything is as simple as it can be, that the most obvious idea to occur to any untrained observer is the most accurate, is literally a guaranteed way to go though life without understanding anything, at all. Using it to argue with people who appear to obvious what they're talking about (and there are so, so many undisputed studies on the exact reasons scammers do what they do: it's too filter people or. There is no debate, academically) is a pretty slippery slope to 'anybody who doesn't think and act exactly like me is lying, because no reasons or facts exist unless I personally hold or after with them', and it's definitely a thought process worth challenging.
Although to be fair, its best application might be re. online arguments that you don't really care that much about. So if you just meant that the previous poster had given a reason and you were going with that because it's easier, my bad.
That's a misunderstanding of Occam's razor. Occam's razor says that if you don't know the answer then when you have a choice between competing explanations, pick the one that requires fewer assumptions.
The explanation that they are using incorrect grammar on purpose to screen out intelligent people is logically questionable, unproven by any evidence, and relies on a bunch of assumptions: sophistication, time is worth more than leads, good enough education and experience in English to write it well, and coordination between scammers.
The 'being bad at speaking a language or dialect they are not native in and having poor access to education' explanation is logically complete and doesn't require any assumptions, because both of those things are facts.
Windows 11, on the other hand, offends me.
They've successfully indoctrinated whole generations to use Windows/Office. Here in Brazil using a computer was (probably still is) synonymous to using Windows/Office. Everyone had their pirated version of Windows and many don't even know that alternatives exist. When those people open companies they'll use what they know.
Software companies have to build for the most popular OSes and most can't justify anything else. Which then means most software only works on Windows and people can't leave it even if there are better alternatives (see Adobe). Finally, any non-closed computer comes with Windows so the cycle continues forever.
Find a software market currently addressed by high price products; create a reasonably good product for that market; sell it for significantly less than the incumbent. Sell much higher volume of said product than the incumbent, thereby make much more profit. Repeat/rinse.
The Windows lock-in, embrace extend etc came after this. You can't lock in customers if they didn't already willingly buy your product.
From 1981
>Microsoft, which needed an operating system for the IBM Personal Computer,[9][10] hired Tim Paterson in May 1981 and bought 86-DOS 1.10 for US$25,000 that July
Passing around vba based xlsm is really awful, so if google sheets has lambdas they can probably get a lead with google sheets queey language over filter.
Groupby and pivotby are the new excel alternative, but if they filled out lambdas, then does that keave VBA and power query as the only reasons for Excel?
Basically functions that take a lambda argument and apply it over some range.
The one failure mode is so fucking insidious where it zeros out your last 2 digits, but otherwise it looks like it pasted OK!
I remember this one. In the 90s MS reps would come to our company and sing about how their Visual Basic was superior to Delphi. When pointed to countless features that proved the opposite all they were able to say is that the MS has bigger dick.
Their recommendation was to have 2 developers instead of one we had. One would code GUI / front end in Visual Basic and the other write DLLs that would do all the meat.
They were trying to port it to a "modern" system and modern compiler so had millions of lines of code to fix, and their UI was MFC-based (so another shot in the foot).
"Fun" times.
Office 2003 and prior were quite good, but then people think Google Docs is somehow equivalent to the functionality of Word.
Admittedly, Active Directory was afflicted by impossibly tiny windows for the management tabs, but the functionality worked (and you could write your own extensions to the LDAP tree and COM-based UI interface for them) as proven by the rehashing of part of the functionality into Google's "organisational" offerings (sign into Chrome and receive restrictions from your organisational (company) overlord, the new Group Policy).
It's a real pity. If we showed software today via a time machine to ourselves 25+ years ago, we'd be shocked at how slow and ineffectual it was and deeply distressed that this was the norm worldwide.
You say this like it was a mystery to start with. When you own 90+% of the user base, you can create trends with any changes implemented
It has been an incredibly lucrative strategy. We all herald some CEO's prowess in growing revenue when they've been doing the same playbook for decades now, and have been running on the inertia of Windows dominance on the desktop. Every new entrant is pushed out through countless incredibly lazy IT departments that just adopt whatever Microsoft shits out.
It's actually surprising that the one and only area where this really failed was as they tried to lever tying to the mobile market. A couple of missteps along the way are the only reason every office drone isn't rocking their Lumia ExchangeLive! CoDevice.
Their main problem is that they never really learned how to compete on merit, just on first-to-market and all kinds of legal (and illegal) tricks.
Big Tech thinks they have a moat, when it’s really diffuse power being made available via genAI to build software good enough to replace them.
So far, I'm not seeing it. All I see is a massive leap forward in the first two years that still had some fundamental problems and a lot of fancy packaging of the same broken stuff since then. We're looking at band-aids here, not actual progress.
The sad reality seems to be that Microsoft do not care about the majority of their products anymore. Only Azure, Microsoft 365 CoPilot, CoPilot and maybe CoPilot.
It doesn't make it any better that Microsoft does this, but as a piece of practical advice, it seems like it can be done. There does still exist a core of Windows under all that garbage that is fast.
Honestly, I had to do a lot of workarounds to get comfy. There's annoying stuff I cannot uninstall.
It helps as it is both a gauge of the success of the strategy, and also a lever where the process can be fine tuned, eg. slowly buying stock then strategically dumping in the right time, correlated with other external shocks can have wider effect to whole industries through controlling the public opinion on specific industries.
As you point out, in practice what's efficient is what can capture the highest return, not necessarily the highest return per se. If say investing in education had high returns society wide but those returns couldn't be captured, that's not an efficient use of private capital.
And if so, why is that necessarily a good thing? Why should that be our goal as society as opposed to things like minimizing child mortality, increasing literacy rates, making sure we don't have a ton of our fellow humans living on the street in misery etc etc - things that make the lives of our fellow humans better? Why is capital growth the metric we have chosen to optimize for? Surely there's better things to optimize for?
Excuse the polemic, but infinite growth with no regard for anything else is the ideology of a cancer cell - and to me that is increasingly what it feels like when we are wasting all these resources on a dying planet just to make numbers go up.
Number go up infinitely is due to inflation and that's basically just an incentive to not hoard cash indefinitely, and instead use it for something useful. But the only thing that uses up is numbers. Everything else is because people, on average, want more stuff and are willing and able to work hard to get it.
(Of course, this generally means that the markets chase the desires of those who have something valuable enough. People who don't will be marginalised by this mechanism, for sure. And of course there's lots of opportunity for people to steal or abuse powerful positions in the market to the detriment of others. Which is why a free market is not the be all and end all of organising a society, and other organisational structures exist to regulate it and to allocate resources in a less transactional manner)
I'd posit that markets are completely detached from the real world and are more of a speculative/religious element than an indicator of any ground truths.
Edit: I just realized I missed a sentence of yours where you kinda spoke to this. I still believe that this is more of a rule than an exception - there is nothing inherently tying markets and reality together - they're mostly about people making bets on what the next big hype is; not on what is actually useful to anyone.
This is the essence of Adam Smith's often misunderstood invisible hand metaphor. Of the individual he observed: "By pursuing his own interest, he frequently promotes that of the society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it." Second order effects stack up and improve quality of life for more people better than trying to do so explicitly.
Multiplying capital creates abundance and that abundance allows for improved standards of living for and the means to spend excess resources in support of charitable endeavors. Growth is good because it means more abundance and opportunity. I would argue that pursuit of growth is not an ideology but a force of nature. Life is opportunistic and will expand to wherever there is fertile conditions, and often adapt even when they are not. We are part of nature and understand this intuitively, seeking growth opportunities. As an example, one is better off being part of a growing company (more wages and opportunities) than one that is stagnant or declining (fighting for scraps and survival).
There's a lot that's not captured by solely looking at dollars, like the examples that you bring up, such as quality of life, human welfare, and so on.
The theory posited above is that you could try to manipulate these signals as a sort of economic warfare. If you expect that every dollar you put into our aforementioned roofing nail factory will get you minuscule or negative return, nobody's going to want to invest in building/expanding nail factories, and they'll put their cash somewhere it can grow instead. This is all well and good so long as you've got happy trading relationships with people who can sell you nails, but if one day the nails stop coming--you've got a supply chain shock until you either open new factories or find someone else willing to sell nails to you. The theory here being that if you had a LOT of goods that became tied up in a single point of failure--someone forcing that failure could create a great deal of internal instability to be exploited for geopolitical ends.
Sorry but... WTF are you talking about?
It rewards self-destructive behavior in favor of short-term gains. Shareholders have *zero* commitment to the companies they buy shares from and will happily switch their entire portfolios on a whim. It's essentially people chasing the new shiny thing every single day.
Let's not forget it's a known fact that people with insider knowledge will profit over everyone else.
How is that efficient in any shape or form?
> If they undercut the US companies and are willing to accept low returns on their investments, then the respective USA competition will be driven out of business by their investors, because there will be other sectors to invest in, with higher RoI.
You're basically explaining one of the reasons stocks are a horrible idea for distributing resources.
It has nothing to do with whether or not it's central or distributed, it's merely the incentives they create. It's essentially Goodhart's law on steroids.
> That system allocated resources to various monopolies who were too big to fail.
Like our banks today? Like OpenAI is trying to sell themselves as so the US government bails them out when they inevitably can't pay off their debts? Like all the other monopolies that are too big to fail?
I can't see the difference.
> turns out allocating capital based on who can make things that people want/need to buy, and do it with a profit, multiplies said capital way faster.
That assumes the stock market does that. It simply doesn't and history is proof. It's also a fact that free market capitalism has consistently done worse than before based on actual numbers.
I highly suggest you read 23 things they don't tell you about capitalism. It goes into a lot more detail and helps you understand things in a broader perspective.
If we want to improve our world we need to move past the faults of the current capitalist system and the soviet union. We need better incentives. Profit has proven to be too disconnected from actual value.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/23_Things_They_Don%27t_Tell_Yo...
But would only happen if USA decided to totally financialize all sectors of its economy and make a small set of oligarchic corporations THE load-bearing element of its strategic capacity, leading us to chase market returns even if those returns totally kneecapped our ability to build anything at all of actual value.
Good thing we haven't done that!
Any empirical support for that?
"The term “free market capitalism” refers to an economy that puts no or minimal barriers in the way of privately owned businesses. Matters such as worker rights, environmental protection, and product safety will be addressed by businesses as the marketplace demands."
it's basically worship of owning the means of production and not being regulated in its use, e.g. if you own a company you get to dictate all sorts of unreasonable things to your employees, and any benefits gained from automation accrue to whoever can afford the up front money to own the machines.
There are better definitions on both wikipedia and Britannica:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market_capitalism
https://www.britannica.com/money/free-market
Especially this hit:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market_capitalism#Concept...
Free markets never existed, don't exist and never will. Markets are defined by laws and regulations in which they exist in. They can't ever be "free".
> “The Congress shall have Power… To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;”
Please get your definitions from someone reasonable (Adam Smith might be a good start) rather than Ayn Rand.
Capitalism is defined by having the capitalist, who provides capital, and without the ability to sell their share of stock it's difficult to see what the value would be. So you kind of require stock markets.
Edit: which is why it's odd to call China communist. They have 3 stock exchanges. They're really a capitalist single-party state.
In the U.S. we have mistaken Capitalism for a religion, and so it wags the dog, so to speak. Since our founding we have made some attempts at finding a balance between our use of the tools of Capitalism and socialism (in more the Democratic Socialism style, rather than the Communism style), and we had a good run in the decades after WWII. But starting with McCarthyism, and really picking up under Regan we have prided ourselves on adopting Capitalism as a religion, and it really shows up in both the income inequality as well as the increasing role of (and corrupting influence of) money in our politics/government.
The stockmarket enables that by making takeovers easier as you have a higher proportion of short termist shareholders who 1) fail to block value destroying acquisitions on one side and 2) jump at the chance to make a quick profit on the other.
What we actually see is a system of chartered extraction. Corporate executives are like Norman lords, granted their 'title' (CEO of instead of Earl of) by shareholders (rather than a king) in return for which both are/were expected to extract maximum value by any means necessary. Extractive tactics often at the expense of long-term product strength are behaviors shareholders expect if the CEO is to keep their bestowed 'title'.
Don't forget the progenitor joint stock company The East India Company, Capitalism in it's purest form without government restriction. Profit-maximizing, absentee extraction, with company executives serving as quasi-feudal lords over assets and people. Modern corporate capitalism is hard to distinguish, in its structure,history, behavior, and incentives, from the Norman extraction system, it's just dressed in a more politically palatable wrapper and forced to mellow out from it's desired East India Company style final form.
Capitalism outside regulatory capture looks like the East India company. You are basically giving me 'no REAL communism has ever been tried'.
And I say "or whatever the fuck" because, as you point out, it's not really capitalism. And maybe it never was - after all, the US Golden Era was when we had the most central planning, the most social services, and the highest taxes.
But everybody right now is exploiting one teensy little flaw of the economy - humans don't live very long. There's no reason to make stuff good for later when you can take a cash advance and get rich now. Everything is always someone else's problem.
I think one fun case study is superstar CEOs. They're so highly desirable, and they work 5 years at a company and "turn it around" before moving onto the next. But if you look at the company after they leave, it's in shambles. And yet, they are the most sought after CEOs. You don't want the Arizona Green Tea guy, no, you want the guy who ran Chipotle into the ground. But hey, at least he increased their stock price for, like, a little bit.
And that still does not make stock the product.
Well in some perverse sense, I'd say Meta qualifies here. Zuck isn't beholden to other shareholders and is free to burn truckloads of money on worthless projects. The big asterisk is that for Meta, "improving its product" is effectively "creating the best digital cigarettes".
1. Stock price remains the same but revenue doubles.
2. Revenue stays the same, but stock price doubles.
Assuming all else equal, and recognizing that this is absolutely a simplification, but if these were the two choices then it seems a no brainer that you'd go with option 2. Revenue is a means of increasing stock price.
If you're holding MS stock long-term, and you plan to gradually shift away from equities as you near retirement and then gradually liquidate your holdings to fund your retirement, juicing the stock in the short term does nothing for you.
If you're holding short-term, then you also need to sell the stock after it gets juiced, so that you can move your capital to not-yet-juiced stocks.
So really, which investors does short-term stock juicing benefit? Insider traders, I guess.
The goal for an investor is captured in the stock price itself. In programming terms, a corporation is a function whose output is its stock price/market cap, and revenue is but one of a host of inputs into that corporation that determines what the stock price is. Other inputs can be operating expenses, whether dividends are issued, future prospects for the company such as entering new markets etc etc... and you can have beliefs about how those various inputs affect the output or how these inputs change the output over time (short term vs. long term), that's perfectly fine... but when push comes to shove, the goal is not the revenue, it's not entering a new market, it's not reducing operating expenses... the goal is increasing the stock price (well technically the market cap).
As an investor, that's the ultimate goal of your investment.
Stock prices were, are, and will always be rough approximations of the NPV of future profits. It’s not perfect, of course, but it’s roughly true.
Doubling revenue in any remotely sustainable way will have way more than a 2x impact on stock price because of exponential growth. So yeah, as a stockhodler, you’d rather double revenue with flat stock price because you’d buy the crap out of the stock when you realize the market has not factored revenue growth in to pricing.
Imagining that public companies care about stock price more than revenue is literally like saying a hungry customer care more about pizza radius than area.
I have not looked at MS in particular, but generally that is what the remuneration of the people at the top of most public companies is most strongly linked to.
Yeah that's a great business idea, ask Boeing how that's going
> Boeing spent about $300,000 to help Ortberg move to Seattle. His decision comes more than two decades after Boeing leadership decided to move company headquarters out of Seattle. Ortberg received about $18 million for the months he was the CEO in 2024.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Ortberg
Previous CEO:
> In 2022, Calhoun received $22.5 million from Boeing. Most of his 2022 compensation was in the form of estimated value of stock and option awards. He received the same $1.4 million salary as in 2021. ... In February 2023, Boeing awarded Calhoun an incentive of about $5.29 million in restricted stock units to "induce him to stay throughout the company's recovery". In March 2023, Boeing announced Calhoun was being given shares worth $15 million that will vest in installments over three years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Calhoun
Seems to be going all right?
It's absurd, but that's where it is. And a company like OpenAI basically hangs on it, because they have obligation almost ten time their revenue and the only way this does not deflate quickly is if others keep feeding it cash.
The only good thing that came out of Satya era has been the Windows Terminal and WSL.
It is going to be very hard for OpenAI or Microsoft to compete with this now that Google has gotten their act together.
Satya’s days are numbered. The OpenAI investment will be a very costly and painful lesson.
Edit: Or better still, convince all of their customers to throw away perfectly good hardware and upgrade to one with a single extra chip, creating a hazardous waste epidemic for landfills as a nice side effect. It's especially important to do this in the middle of a RAM and HDD shortage.
Really, I'll just never be half the great business strategist that these guys are. <sigh>
210 more comments available on Hacker News