M5 Macbook Pro
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Apple M5 Macbook ProHardware ReviewLaptop Technology
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Apple M5 Macbook Pro
Hardware Review
Laptop Technology
The new M5 MacBook Pro has been released, but users are questioning its value due to perceived shortcomings such as lack of WiFi 7, limited RAM options, and a confusing product lineup.
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Bad news for anyone who buys the M5 MacBook Pro as an "AI" machine and finds it can't fit any of the more interesting LLMs!
At this point, I get the soldered on ram, for better or worse... I do wish at least storage was more approachable.
Exceptions apply to those running local LLMs.
Their sales copy for reference:
"M-series chips include unified memory, which is more efficient than traditional RAM. This single pool of high-performance memory allows apps to efficiently share data between the CPU, GPU, and Neural Engine.... This means you can do more with unified memory than you could with the same amount of traditional RAM."
Still not the fastest ram, that they use for dedicated GPUs, but faster than most x86 options.
I’m not trying into be a fanboy and maybe it’s a little bit “cope”, but apple has always put as much RAM as is necessary for the computer to work—and not a lot more—in their base models.
:)
You're not silly, you're just able to see reality.
Apple knows who is buying the bulk of their computers, and it isn't power users ... most people buying computers don't have a clue what RAM is even used for.
I'd hit beachballs, but macOS balances 8GB of RAM fine even with Tahoe for regular users
I know people complain at every release. But I look at the three choices presented and they are all disappointing to me. It's a huge turnoff to see the only initial differentiator presented to be a choice between "measly" amounts of RAM and storage to "barely acceptable" amounts.
To get even close to the specs on my Surface Pro I'd have to hit the configurator and spend at least $1000. Even more to hit the config of my work issued HP notebook.
What do you do on wifi that requires more than 10gb per seconds... on a laptop, you'd fill up the base model ssd in under a minute of download
Even pre-Apple Silicon, it's been a decade since users could upgrade MacBook's RAM or internal storage.
Sounds like maybe they didn't want to try and fit their new N1 chip this go around so they could re-use some components? MacBook still has the same broadcom chip. Or for a pro differentiating feature when the M5 Pro/Max comes out later. There's a rumored MBP re-design, so I'm guessing we'll see it then along with it having the N1 for WiFi 7.
I have to say if I had any choice I would delay my purchase until the 16” catches up rather than buying a generation behind. If I see specs saying M5 14” is more performant for my workloads than my more expensive 16” I’m even more motivated to delay. Most product managers would be aware of these things.
I can see an overlap with people who want smaller computers who also want max power, but I just would not believe that is a significant group. (again, all personal observations)
I also think the 15 inch MacBook Air filled the non-power-user-but-likes-big-screen niche.
- normal - pro - max
pro and max had way more cores and gpus and supported way more ram. today's release is the basic version of the new cpu; if you want more ram you can get the m4pro or m4max based MacBook Pros, or wait for the M5pro/max to come out.
This has been their staggered release strategy for a while.
Still no M4 Ultra Studio available.
edit: suggested retail price also dropped with EUR 100. Mind is less blown now. It seems like a good thing in fact.
edit2: in Belgium, the combined price of the 70W adapter and 2m USB-C to MagSafe is EUR 120.
[1] https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/new-macbook-pro-does-no...
I'll take the discount and use one of my 12 existing USB-C chargers.
Compared to the marginal environmental impact to source materials, build hardware and parts, assemble, ship, stock, and transport to customer each unit, the box could be 10x larger and it wouldn't make a dent.
This is not how shipping works.
A larger box, even by 1 inch on any direction, absolutely makes a huge difference when shipping in manufacturing quantities. Let's not pretend physical volume doesn't exist just to make an argument.
10 planes flying with MacBooks == much different than 1 plane (in other words, when you 10x the size of something, as you suggest, it does actually have a huge impact)
A smaller box allows more to be carried. But if we go that route, it's trivial to ship them without any box and box them domestically - and that's a 2-3x volume reduction right there.
Ah yeah I can't imagine any scenario where this could go wrong
Like man in the middle attacks
Replacement/fake products
... or you know, damage? Boxes provide... protection.
> it's trivial
Anytime you catch yourself thinking something is trivial, you're probably trivializing it (aka think about it more and you'll probably be able to think of a dozen more reasons packaging products is the norm)
USB-C chargers are everywhere now. Monitors with USB-C or Thunderbolt inputs will charge your laptop, too. I bought a monitor that charges over the USB-C cable and I haven’t use the charger that came with the laptop in years because I have a smaller travel charger that I prefer for trips anyway.
You don’t have to buy the premium Apple charger and cable. There are many cheap options.
I already have a box of powerful USB-C chargers I don’t use. I don’t need yet another one to add to the pile.
On the go, I've bought a small GaN with multiple ports. At home, I already have all of my desks wired up with a Usb-c charger.
Takes like 10 hours and isn't officially supported I think, but it does work.
Nintendo I have no expectations for, but Apple isn't (IMO) that egregiously bad with backwards compatability
Had a similar issue with my 2018 MBP Intel - the 86/87 Watt Apple charger was the only thing it would come to life with as the battery aged if the device got too low.
In my experience a low-power charger will revive, you just must wait for it to hit enough SOC since it is effectively starting off the battery. This does take a while, but starting dead on a supply that can't guarantee enough power would be dumb.
Even a Studio Display, which can provide more power than my M1 Pro can use, won't wake it from this state. Apple wants $300 for a replacement battery so I'll just buy a new MacBook at that price, but the charger situation doesn't bode well for M5 MacBook buyers who wonder why their Mac is dead one day (and they just need the exact charger the system wants, but Apple didn't provide it)
Looks like iFixit shows thinks it's only a "moderate" difficulty replacement and should only cost you $109
https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro+14-Inch+2021+Batter...
I don't want to use a 3rd party battery in a device I carry with me most places I go...
I re-did the battery on my 2013 MBP well after the Apple support period (~2020). I don't think I'd try it on a still-supported Mac unless I was very price sensitive.
In 2018 I had a phone that entered a boot loop: battery depleted, plug it in, it automatically starts booting, it stops charging while booting, it dies due to depletion, it recognises it’s plugged in and starts charging, boot, stop, die, start, boot, stop, die… I tried every combination of the four or five cables that I had with a car USB power adapter and someone’s power bank, nothing worked. Diverted on my way home (an 8 hour journey) to buy another phone because I needed one the next day. When I got home, I tried two or three power adapters with all the cables and finally found one combination that worked. I learned the lesson that day that allowing devices to deplete completely can be surprisingly hazardous.
The solution is to keep your devices charged. This is feasible if you have a few devices. Not practical for someone like me. I have too many devices. I don't use every device daily.
USB-C 15W Chargers may be everywhere, but higher power charger required for MacBook Pro is not.
I would have agreed if the devices is using 10W or 20W where you could charge it slightly slower. Not for a 70W to 100W MacBook Pro though.
I actually have very few USB-C chargers. With everyone leaving them out of the box, I don’t happen to have a bunch of them by chance. They took them out of the box before giving time for people to acquire them organically. I never bought a single lightning cable, but almost all my USB-C cables had to be purchased. This is not great, considering how confusing the USB-C spec is.
Other than the one that came with my M1 MBP (which I will lose when I sell it), I have had to purchase every charger I have.
Not being able to charge a $1,500+ laptop without buying a separate accessory is crazy to me. I’ve also seen many reports over the years comparing Apple chargers to cheap 3rd party ones where there are significant quality differences, to the point of some of the 3rd party ones being dangerous or damaging. I don’t know why Apple would want to open the door to more of that.
I assume a lot of people will use a phone charger, then call support or leave bad reviews, because the laptop is losing battery while plugged in. Most people don’t know what kind of charger they need for their laptop. My sister just ordered a MacBook Air a couple weeks ago and called me to help order, and one of the questions was about the charger, because there were options for different chargers, which confused her and had her questioning if one even came with it or if she had to pick one of the options. This is a bad user experience. She’s not a totally clueless user either. She’s not a big techie, but in offices she used to work with, she was the most knowledgeable and was who they called when the server had issues. She also opened up and did pretty major surgery on her old MacBook Air after watching a couple YouTube videos. So I’d say at least 50% of people know less than her on this stuff.
Apple positions themselves as the premium product in the market and easy to use for the average user. Not including the basics to charge the internal battery is not premium or easy. I can see it leading to reputational damage.
2. a 15w charger will charge your macbook pro fine, slowly, but fine. I had to charge mine few times on a mobile one and you can work plugged or it will charge easy over night
Which phones released with charger that powerful enough to charge macbook when using. And must be PD compliance too.
This is especially true for someone moving up to an MBP from an MBA, which takes less juice.
People in other countries will get pissed but ultimately suck it up and buy a product. People in America will take it as a personal offense due to the current Maoist-style cult of personality, and you'll get death threats and videos of them shooting your products posted onto social media. Just look at what happened to that beer company. No such thing would happen in Germany.
I was told the opposite thing would happen. Sounds like a great deal for us Americans!
Or a certain individual…
Apple could subsidize by absorbing part of the tariff in the U.S. and overcharging in the EU.
That said, in the EU we have a two-year warranty.
VAT in the U.S. is no more than 12%.
> Under EU rules, if the goods you buy turn out to be faulty or do not look or work as advertised, the seller must repair or replace them at no cost. If this is impossible or the seller cannot do it within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience to you, you are entitled to a full or partial refund. You always have the right to a minimum 2-year guarantee from the moment you received the goods. However, national rules in your country may give you extra protection.
> The 2-year guarantee period starts as soon as you receive your goods.
> If a defect becomes apparent within 1 year of delivery, you don't have to prove it existed at the time of delivery. It is assumed that it did unless the seller can prove otherwise. In some EU countries, this period of “reversed burden of proof” is 2 years.
As far as I know, the US has zero warranty laws. It can be zero days.
https://www.apple.com/legal/warranty/products/embedded-mac-w...
When it was announced, I expected it to be at least 4000 AUD (~2600 USD). When I heard it was starting at 1500 USD instead (~2300 AUD), I was astonished and very excited. And it still is that price… but only in the US. In Australia it is 4000 AUD (the 32GB/1TB model, which is 1700 USD, ~2600 AUD). So I sadly didn’t get one.
Is the rest of the world subsidising the US market, or are they just profiteering in the rest of the world?
Americans pay the same amount, but… stochastically.
PS: Health care is similar. Australians pay a fairly predictable amount via taxes and Medicare, Americans gamble with bankruptcy every time they break a leg. But hey, if they don’t break a leg then the “system works”!
Chargers don’t change quickly. If I lost my charger from 2019, the ideal replacement in 2025 would be literally exactly the same model—and mine still works like new and looks good. I have nothing to gain from buying a new charger.
We should be cheering the EU for ending an abuse that the US has long failed to.
Also, it still bundles a USB-C to MagSafe 3 cable.
If you sell your old laptop when you buy a new one, you generally sell it with old charger. And different Apple laptops take chargers of different maximum watts (they're compatible but not optimal), so they're not all the same anyways.
There's a reason they generally make sense to bundle. Especially with laptop chargers, which provide a whole lot more power than some random little USB-C charger you might have. Sometimes letting the free market decide actually gives customers what they want and find most useful.
Sounds like a symptom of incompatibility. I’ve only ever included the charger when it was specific to the laptop.
> And different Apple laptops take chargers of different maximum watts (they're compatible but not optimal), so they're not all the same anyways.
Chargers automatically provide whatever power level is needed, up to their max, and charging power isn’t the steady tick upward we’re used to elsewhere. The MacBook Pro did get a faster charger a few years ago, relegating old ones to that “compatible but not optimal” state, but meanwhile MacBook Air chargers got slower, and most releases didn’t change the charger. Certainly there are sometimes benefits to buying a new charger, but it happens much less often than new device purchases, and even when there are benefits purchases should still be the customer’s choice.
> Sometimes letting the free market decide actually gives customers what they want and find most useful.
I agree, but “free market” doesn’t mean lawlessness, it means an actual market that’s actually free. Actual market: companies compete on economics, not e.g. violence or leverage over consumers. Actually free: consumers freely choose between available options. Bundling is a very classic example of an attempt to circumvent free market economics, using the greater importance of one choice to dictate a second choice.
Only when there's no competition and you can use that to abuse market power.
But competition for laptops is strong. Most consumers want their laptops to come with a charger, even if you personally don't. That's why they're sold that way.
Like, nobody says the free market is failing because Coke forces me to buy carbonated H2O along with their syrup at the grocery store. The market prefers it when they're bundled.
> Most consumers want their laptops to come with a charger, even if you personally don't. That's why they're sold that way.
Citation needed, on both counts. Plenty of counter-examples in this thread. Non-tech people I know aren’t charger crazed, they’re mildly amused or annoyed by their inexplicable excess of chargers.
> Like, nobody says the free market is failing because Coke forces me to buy carbonated H2O along with their syrup at the grocery store.
I’d say it is indeed failed / nonexistent there, it’s just that nobody cares, because its potential benefit is so small it’s outweighed by overhead. Chargers aren’t laptops or cars or houses, but, as you said, there’s a lot more to them, and they’re more expensive and contribute significantly to e-waste. There actually is a charger market, and it’s better when it’s more free.
To be clear, the healthier market I’m envisioning is one where consumers can make charger purchasing decisions freely, not one where nobody’s allowed to also offer a bundle.
"Charger crazed"? Huh?
They're amused by too many cheap underpowered phone and small device chargers. Not laptop chargers. Those are bigger and you don't usually have any extra.
There isn't much of a "charger market" for laptops, except people who want a second one for a second location. I've never heard of anybody with a Macbook who wanted to buy a non-Apple charger instead. And now Magsafe is back!
Like, my Macbook also bundles a keyboard, a screen, a trackpad, a battery, and so forth. Sure the charger isn't connected with adhesive, but it's still a unified product. You need a charger to use a Macbook, and most people don't have an extra laptop charger with enough power otherwise.
Forcing them to be sold separately for laptops is just silly.
Prices are about 65 EUR for a 70W (tested DE + CH)
The EU law states they must provide an SKU without an adapter - i.e. they're still allowed to offer one with a power adapter.
Same, for a laptop??? Really? Wild. You can charge these with USB-C chargers too.
Germany: 1758 USD (1512 EUR) without charger.
US: 1599 USD with 70W charger.
This feels like is an insult.
Everyone buying their high end gear is buying something waiting to be refreshed now.
Buyers who walk into an Apple store for a base MacBook Pro will wait if they hear a new model is coming out. So if you have a buyer basing purchases on the generation number, it makes sense to launch that model as soon as possible.
Pro/Max buyers generally are checking into specs and getting what they need. Hence the M2 Ultra still being for sale, for some niches that have specific requirements.
Looks like the Pro and Max will be on a three month delay.
Smaller chips means more of a wafer is usable when a defect exists
Most of their buyers aren’t buying the highest end parts. Those are a niche market.
Focusing on the smaller parts first makes sense because they’re easier to validate and ship. The larger parts are more complicated and come next.
People in the U.S. are starting to think about their Christmas shopping lists right about now.
AMD is somewhat of an exception/unique case though, having chipsets and monolithic depending on the use case and console/semicustom offerings, so that doesn't map fully.
Also, let's not forget in Apples case, that they actually go phone first, the Air+iPad, then Pro and finally Studio. Feel that the lower end devices should priority personally though, efficiency gains are more valuable in connected devices with limited space for batteries over my 16 incher with 100wh.
Course, would be nice if we just got the entire range updated at once, but I doubt even Apple could pull such a supply chain miracle off, even if they bought all of TSMC and the entire island to boot...
The standard practice is to start by producing the chips with the smallest die size.
Did they announce this or are you speaking for Apple?
This has been their release strategy for past generations.
The Pro/Max rollout tends to lag behind by about 6 months.
- m4 -> m5, same core number and distribution, "neural accelerators", higher memory bandwidth
- max storage increased from 2 to 4TB (and probably an extra kidney in price)
Everything else is strictly identical.
The marketing blurb claims 2~3x the performances of the M4 for AI stuff (I assume that's the neural accelerators), 20% for CPU tasks (compiling), 40~80% for GPU tasks (gaming and 3D rendering).
Not to mention the M4 pro and max released 6 months after the M4. If that holds for M5, it won’t be this year.
Edit: okay, that garnered more attention than I expected, I guess I owe a qualification.
1. Everything is just slightly different. I had to split all my dot files into common/Linux/Mac specific sections. Don't expect to be able to clone and build any random C++ project unless someone in the project is specifically targeting Mac.
2. Not everything is supported natively on arm64. I had an idea and wanted to spin up a project using DynamoRIO, but wasn't supported. Others have mentioned the docker quirks.
3. The window manager. I'm not a fan of all the animations and needing to gester between screens (and yes, I've been down the hotkeys rabbit hole). To install a 3rd party window manager you need to disable some security setting because appearantly they work by injecting into the display manager and calling private APIs.
So my person takeaway was that I took the openness of the Linux ecosystem for granted (I've always had a local checkout of the kernel so I can grep an error message if needed). Losing that for me felt like wearing a straightjacket. Ironically I have a MBP at work, but spend my day ssh'd into a Linux box. It's a great machine for running a web browser and terminal emulator.
Apple M5 Chip
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45591799
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