It Seems That Openai Is Scraping [certificate Transparency] Logs
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The revelation that OpenAI might be scraping certificate transparency logs has sparked a lively debate about the identity of the scraper and the implications of such actions. While some commenters, like jsheard, confirm that the IP address in question falls within OpenAI's published ranges, others, like Aurornis, caution that other companies might be mimicking OpenAI's header patterns to evade detection. The discussion highlights the cat-and-mouse game between scrapers and website administrators, with some, like btown, lamenting the lack of robust checks on user-agent and origin headers. As the conversation unfolds, it becomes clear that certificate transparency logs are being watched by a diverse array of actors, from Google to script kiddies, making it a crowded and complex space.
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It has long been common for scrapers to adopt the header patterns of search engine crawlers to hide in logs and bypass simple filters. The logical next step is for smaller AI players to present themselves as the largest players in the space.
Some search engines provide a list of their scraper IP ranges specifically so you can verify if scraper activity is really them or an imitator.
https://openai.com/searchbot.json
I don't know if imitating a major crawler is actually worth it, WAFs can easily tell you're faking it via IP/DNS lookups so you'll just immediately get yourself flagged as suspicious.
Common Crawl's CCBot has published IP ranges. We aren't a search engine (although there are search engines using our data) and we like to describe our crawler as a crawler, not a "scraper".
We think we're so different from animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimicry
(the site may occasionally fail to load)
https://www.merklemap.com/search?query=ycombinator.com&page=...
[0] https://github.com/Barre/ZeroFS
Love it
Substring doesn't seem like what I'd want in a subdomain search.
That's the whole point.
> Substring doesn't seem like what I'd want in a subdomain search.
Well, if you want only subdomains search for *.ycombinator.com.
https://www.merklemap.com/search?query=*.ycombinator.com&pag...
To me, this is evidence that SQL databases with high traffic can be made directly accessible on the public internet
crt.sh seems to be more accessible at certain times of the day. I can remember when it had no such accessibility issues
It's the only website I know of where queries can just randomly fail for no reason, and they don't even have an automatic retry mechanism. Even the worst enterprise nightmares I've seen weren't this user unfriendly.
It's certainly news to me, and presumably some others, that this exists.
If certificate transparency is new to you, I feel like there are significantly more interesting articles and conversations that could have been submitted in place than "A public log intended for consumption exists, and a company is consuming that log".
If the fact that OpenAI is scraping certificate transparency logs is new and interesting to you, I'd love to know why it is interesting. Perhaps I'm missing something.
if this is the article that introduces someone to the concept of certificate transparency, then there's nothing wrong with that. graciously, you followed through with links to what you consider more interesting. that is not something a lot of commenters do and just leave it as a snarky comment for someone being one of the lucky 10000 for the day.
(Which is why I hate it that it's so hard to test things locally without having to get a domain and a certificate. I don't want to buy domain names and announce them publicly for the sake of random script that needs to offer a HTTP endpoint.)
Modern security is introducing a lot of unexpected couplings into software systems, including coupling to political, social and physical reality, which is surprising if you think in terms of programs you write, which most likely shouldn't have any such relationships.
My favorite example of such unexpected coupling, whose failures are still regularly experienced by users, is wall clock time. If your program touches anything related to certificates, even indirectly, suddenly it's coupled to actual real clock and your users better make sure their system time is in synch with the rest of the world, or else things will stop working.
Yes. What does it have to do with HTTPS?
> You hopefully also know that you can create your own certificate authority or self signed certificates and add them to your CA store.
Sorta, kinda. Does it actually work with third-party apps? Does it work with mobile systems? If not, then it's not a valid solution, because it doesn't allow me to run my stuff in my own networks without interfacing with the global Internet and social and political systems backing its cryptographic infrastructure.
Oh, I read this as indicating OpenAI may make a move into the security space.
That’s not the intended use for CT logs.
Gross.
Perhaps you should save your "gross" judgement for when you better understand what's happening?
For example:
(It doesn't deduplicate if the same domain name appears in multiple certificates, but it's still a substantial reduction in bandwidth compared to serving the entire (pre)certificate.)Needs clarification. What reason
If you didn't want others to access your service, maybe consider putting it in a private space.
"I minted a new TLS cert and it seems that OpenAI is scraping CT logs for what I assume are things to scrape from, based on the near instant response from this:"
The reason presented by the blog post is "for what I assume are things to scrape from"
Putting aside the "assume" part (see below^1), is this also the reason that the other "systems" are "scraping" CT logs
After OpenAI "scrapes" then what does OpenAI do with the data (readers can guess)
But what about all the other "systems", i.e., parties that may use CT logs. If the logs are public then that's potentially a lot of different parties
Imagine in an age before the internet, telephone subscriber X sets up a new telephone line, the number is listed in a local telephone directory ("the phone book") and X immediately receives a phone call from telephone subscriber Z^2
X then writes an op-ed that suggests Z is using the phone book "for who to call"
This is only interesting if X explains why Z was calling or if the reader can guess why Z was calling
Anyone can use the phone book, anyone can use ICANN DNS, anyone can use CT logs, etc.
Why does someone use these public resources. Online commenter: "To look up names and numbers"
Correct. But that alone is not very interesting. Why are they looking up the names and numbers
1.
We can make assumptions about why someone is using a public resource, i.e., what they will use the data for. But that's all they are: assumptions
With the telephone, X could ask "Why are you calling?"
With the internet, that's not possible.^3 This leads to speculation and assumptions. Online commenters love to speculate, and often to make conclusions without evidence
No one knows _everything_ that OpenAI does with the data it collects except OpenAi employees. The public only knows about what OpenAi chooses to share
Similarly no one knows what OpenAI will do with the data in the future
One could speculate that it's naive to think that, in the longterm, data collected by "AI" companies will only be used for "AI"
2. The telephone service also had the notion of "unlisted numbers", but that's another tangent for discussion
3. Hence for example people who do port scans of the IPv4 address space will try to prevent the public from accessing them by restricting access to "researchers", etc. Getting access always involves contacting the people with the scans and explaining what the requester will do the data. In other words, removing speculation
>useragent="Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_15_7) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/131.0.0.0 Safari/537.36; compatible; OAI-SearchBot/1.3; robots.txt;
Makes me want to reconfigure my servers to just drop such traffic. If you can't be arsed to send a well-formed UA, I have doubts that you'll obey other conventions like robots.txt.
This actually is a well-behaved crawler user agent because it identifies itself at the end.
> "ipv4Prefix": "74.7.175.128/25"
from https://openai.com/searchbot.json
I run a web server and so see a lot of scrapers, but OpenAI is one of the ones that appear to respect limits that you set. A lot of (if not most) others don't even have that ethics standard so I'd not say that "OpenAI scrapes everything they can access. Everything" without qualification, as that doesn't seem to be true, at least not until someone puts a file behind a robots deny page and finds that chatgpt (or another of openai's products) has knowledge of it
Then all they know is the main domain, and you can somewhat hide in obscurity.
Looking at the README, is the idea that the certificates get generated on the DNS server, not by the ACME client on each machine that needs a certificate? That seems like a confusing design choice to me.
https://github.com/joohoi/acme-dns
Also, may I know which DNS provider you went with? The GitHub issues pages with some of the DNS provider plugins seems to suggest some are more frequently maintained, while some less so.
Consider this simplified scenario.
This failure mode is incredibly common. And preventable. What a waste of the collective hours of attention and thinking we are spending here that we could be using somewhere else.See also: the difference between positive and normative; charitable interpretations; not jumping to conclusions
The whole purpose of this data is to be consumed by 3rd-parties.
But what GP probably meant is that OAI definitely uses this log to get a list of new websites in order to scrap then later. This is a pretty standard way to use CT logs - you get a list of domains to scrap instead of relying solely on hyperlinks.
The point of putting up a public web site is so the public can view it (including OpenAI/google/etc).
If I don’t want people viewing it, then I don’t make it public.
Saying that things are stolen when they aren’t clouds the issue.
The (presumably) unintended, unexpected purpose of the logs is to provide public notification of a website coming online for scrapers, search engines, and script kiddies to attack it: I could register https://verylongrandomdomainnameyoucantguess7184058382940052... and unwisely expect it to be unguessable, but as it turns out OpenAI is going to scrape it seconds after the certificate is issued.
privacy doesnt exist in this world
I just don't understand how people with no clue whatsoever about what's going on feel so confident to express outrage over something they don't even understand!
It’s been going on forever (remember how companies were reading files off your computer aka cookies in 1999?)
This seems like a total non-issue and expect that any public files are scraped by OpenAI and tons others. If I don’t want something scraped, I don’t make it public.
Of course I get some bot traffic including the OpenAI bot – although I just trust the user agent there, I have not confirmed that the origin IP address of the requests actually belongs to OpenAI.
That's just the internet. I like the bots, especially the wp-admin or .env ones. It's fun watching them doing their thing like little ants.
They would be far from first. Any time I create a Wildcard cert in LE I immediately see a ton of sub-domain enumeration in my DNS query logs. Just for fun I create a bunch of wildcard certs for domains I do not even use just to keep their bots busy. This has been going on about as long as the CT logs have existed.
There's some security downside there if my web servers get hacked and my certs exfiltrated, but for a lot of stuff that tradeoff seems reasonable. I wouldn't recommend this approach of you were a bank or a government security agency or a drug cartel.
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