Indoor Tanning Makes Youthful Skin Much Older on a Genetic Level
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The alarming effects of indoor tanning on skin aging have sparked a lively debate, with many commenters sharing personal anecdotes of friends and acquaintances who've suffered the consequences of excessive UV exposure. While some point out that it's "known" that UV ages skin rapidly, others counter that the relationship between UV exposure and aging isn't straightforward, citing the relatively youthful appearance of many southern Europeans who spend time outdoors. As commenters weigh in, it becomes clear that the impact of UV on skin is complex, influenced by factors like adaptation to local environments and individual skin types. The discussion highlights the tension between common knowledge and nuanced reality, leaving readers to ponder the true costs of chasing a tan.
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In reverse, people thought (and too many still "know") that MSG and pasteurization is bad.
Don't use the word know, when in fact you mean "assume".
I'm on blood pressure medication, and haven't received any advice about sodium intake.
In any case, everyone is different and catchall health advice lacks nuance. I have to very consciously consume more and more salt because I habitually cut it out to the point that I now suffer from hyponatremia especially as I exercise and sweat bucket loads.
It is not "dangerous", and I think that is the problem with the messaging, but it does increase my anxiety, insomnia and fibromyalgia symptoms. And I also thing for most people it is fine, but it certainly does not work with my family's genetics. My mother had the same issue.
Many things in food now replace MSG. Any time you see a protein isolate, what they are isolating is the glutamate. Malted Barley Flour also contains high levels of glutamate and purines (like inosine) that work synergisticly with it to enhance flavor.
Glutamate is an excitatory neurotransmitter, and it makes your taste buds more "excited". My mouth tastes like metal whenever I have foods with glutamate. It is not pleasant for me at all.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9883458/
https://www.eurofins.com/media-centre/newsletters/food-newsl...
As with most food stuffs if not consumed in moderation it can become a problem.
[1]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022202X2...
I estimated that 1 minute of artificial tanning is comparable to the 10-15 minutes of sun a day that is recommended. But has the benefit of the whole body's largest organ kicking in for the health benefits. So I tan at home for 1 minute a couple times a week. You can't do this economically with a salon.
I also walk a lot when I can and weather allows. I started walking with a weighted vest occasionally and it was like my body went into some kind of good shock. I was surprised how little I could feel it the next day, and the boost in energy.
Why? This is not how we naturally insolate.
I’m not saying you’re wrong. Just that the status quo is different parts of your body getting sun each day. You’re not replicating that, which places the burden of evidence on you.
Nuance is a real & helpful thing in communication. Stridency less so.
Do that daily for about four weeks, come rain or shine, whilst enjoying your summer vacation.
Of course that probably doesn't work for every country, but here in Finland it's normal enough. Too bad I'm a pale-skinned redhead, covered in freckles, and I get burned if I'm not too careful.
After all, supplements are also artificial compounds
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33584011
Unless of course our calculations are a bit off, then we accidentally created a bed version of the wrong chalice from raiders of the lost ark, but I think it's fine.
UV comes in an huge variety of strengths outdoors.
There are no calculations to be a "bit off". It's just strong UV. You're making it sound a lot more complicated than it is.
String reaction? I didn’t make any such claim.
I don’t think we need to replicate everything about nature to incorporate what we know about nature, ourselves, and the practical details of our lives.
I have bright LEDs around my ceilings, hidden by cove molding, turning the whole ceiling into soft but bright reflected daylight.
It doesn’t need to replicate a real summer day outside to improve my mood and avoid depression in winter. Much better than ordinary indoor lighting.
Most people take some kind of supplement or medication that doesn’t replicate pre-technological natural conditions but provide benefits.
Improving our respective conditions, in the artificial world we live in, can involve quirky adaptations for each of us.
That doesn't seem right. If you only tan in a strong tanning bed for 10 min (or 15 min in a weaker one), it's equivalent to only about an hour in the real sun around noon. I.e. if you've only been going to a tanning bed, you'll start to burn after that.
So the difference factor is not like 4-6x, not 15x. Tanning beds aren't as strong as some fearmongerers suggest. And that's assuming full-body exposure.
When you say you artificially tan at home for 1 minute, how? Did you buy your own entire tanning bed? Because if you use the small portable devices (like a Sperti), they're providing only a small fraction of what a tanning bed provides, since they're so small.
The calculation isn’t as straightforward as it could be, because there are the wavelengths of UV you want for health benefits vs. the wavelengths that so the most damage and are more efficient for tanning.
So I figured go short on time and “long” on body coverage. Which I think means I am getting more benefit.
For what it is worth, one minute does seem to generate that feel good after tanning or day in the sun feel. With two minutes it’s very noticeable, but I am serious about getting the most benefit, while limiting exposure.
Lucky you! So convenient. Yeah, then there's probably a good chance that's developing the vitamin D you need, although bulbs do take around 60 seconds to warm up to full brightness, but I'm just basing that off visual brightness and assuming that UV warm-up time is the same. I'm sure getting your vitamin D levels tested will definitely tell you if you're getting enough or not. If not, well you can always do 2 min, but blood tests give you the definitive answer there.
I’ll lend you my balcony if you want to try for a tan. Do you think it will happen before sunset? That’s 430pm and it is currently 10:30am.
I'll never understand some people's fetishization with getting darker via tanning though. Theres nothing wrong with light skin, its only a few western countries that seem to have a weird fetishization with cooking your skin longterm to get darker short term. Meanwhile most other countries and peoples are willing to damage their skin in whole other ways trying to get the opposite.
They almost always just stick to tones within the realm of pantone's skin guide, treating it more like a skin bible instead.
Haus labs and their triclone in 000 is one of the few foundations I've ever had match.
"wealthy people can stay inside while poor people work in the sun" vs. "wealthy people can vacation in sunny countries while poor people stay home in the cold"
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5664932/#:~:text=9....
When I'm in Asia and I see people carrying umbrellas and doing skincare, their skin looks clinical and less appealing to me than those who aren't doing it. I logically know this is healthier for their skin, but my primate brain tells me it's unattractive.
It's unfortunate that increasing melanin production from the sun causes DNA damage. Because it looks so good to me.
There are a variety of drugs that induce pigmentation or melanocyte production, but none are FDA approved. Most of them probably lead to cancer, either by leading to uncontrolled proliferation, impacting unrelated cell populations, or disrupting normal hormonal signalling.
Melanotan-II was popular some years back, but there are half a dozen others.
It's very much the case that in Filipino, lighter skin is viewed as upper class (not having to work outdoors, not being a nanny, maid, or "helper"). It's the same in many other Asian cultures. Women who live in Asian countries with a high concentration of plastic surgery "procedures" and treatments (like South Korea, for instance) are often the standards of beauty for other Asian countries even though such procedures/whitening and eye/nose surgeries are out of reach.
Like sometimes I watch American news and the fake tans are just yucky and kind of gross to me.
Same with western women I see in Asia occasionally, age in 20s but looks easily 30+ while it's the opposite with many Asians. Eastern Europeans tend to avoid the sun more.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46345971
Clinuvel Pharmaceuticals intended to offer it as a cosmetic, but abandoned this pursuit in the 2000s due to regulatory restrictions and concerns about the promotion of suntanning. Unlicensed Melanotan II is found on the internet, although health agencies advise against its use due to lack of testing and regulatory approval.
Melanotan is dangerous, sadly.
Tanning causes melanocyte production in your epidermis. Melanotan causes it throughout your body in an uncontrolled manner.
It can lead to uncontrolled melanocyte production that doesn't shut off - cancer.
It disrupts normal hormone signalling which may downstream cause a variety of deleterious health effects and disease states.
While some darker skin people want to have lighter skin.
Maybe at some deeper level it’s something about being human. We always want something the other person has
This. Same with curly vs straight hair.
When I was younger I used to intentionally tan for short durations, but now I realize that’s harmful so I just embrace the cave gollum look
But I think on some level we naturally associate severe paleness with being sick or non-social.
I say this as the original commenter
To me personally, I like naturally tan skin (like Asian natural skin) > natural white skin > artificial tanned skin > heavy tanning. Tanned white people just do not look good to me.
If you asked someone else where I live now, I bet answer would be different
To me, something like RFK Junior skin looks disgusting. I always wince when I see a picture of him, like you could make that into leather bag.
Vitamin D deficiency is very common in Canada particularly during winter. The government recommends that everyone intentionally seek out vitamin D rich foods, or to take a supplement.
> ...
> Meanwhile most other countries and peoples are willing to damage their skin in whole other ways trying to get the opposite.
The grass has more melanin on the other side.
The grass on the other side has a different amount of melanin be harder-to-achieve and thus more desirable because it previously signaled belonging to the higher socio-economical strata.
As an aside, the chemistry behind UV damage is interesting. You can think of DNA as a sequence of four letters: C, G, A, and T. If there are two neighboring T's, UV can move a bond, linking the two T's together (i.e. thymine dimerization). If you're in the sun, each skin cell gets 50-100 of these pairs created per second. Enzymes usually fix these errors, but sometimes the errors will cause problems during DNA replication and you can end up with mutations. Enough of the wrong mutations can cause skin cancer. So wear sunscreen!
https://pdb101.rcsb.org/motm/91
Blond hair with a tan or black hair with white skin are more contrasting so look more striking.
Just visit New Mexico (;->
Fucking stupid, there is nothing better in life than looking young and beautiful forever IMO.
After all, exercise is the undisputed God tier all-time winning champion of "Studies show that ______ is good for xyz."
While I believe there are many benefits of being outside and exercising, there does appear to be specific benefits to sun-like UV exposure.
The current argument I've read for why fair-skinned people even evolved near the North Sea and not anywhere else near the arctic is exactly that the Gulf Stream allowed a cereals-based diet rather than a meat based diet, which led to vitamin D deficiencies which caused problems in pregnancy, leading to people with fairer skin being the most likely to avoid those problems.
You definitely don't need to get your vitamin D from the sun.
So they put the kids on trains and took them off to the seaside.
But then...
The railway also allowed milk to be brought into the cities. So they added vitamin D to milk. That was how the rickets was solved. In time milk became free at school, usually it was warm by morning break, which was when it would get consumed, from mini-milk bottles, that would get reused.
I am only piecing together this history, no definitive source, unless you include my elderly neighbour. However, food history is fascinating, once you get away from celebrated brands to the unsung heroes of the vegetable aisle.
What I can't work out is why the children were so vulnerable to rickets when the adults weren't. Workers weren't being sent out to the countryside or beach to get some sun, just the kids. Rickets doesn't affect adults with grown bones, in theory, the adults should have had really painful joints and osteoporosis, but maybe this was not understood at the time.
In time the clean air zones were setup and the smog was banished to a certain extent, by which time it became uncommon to fortify milk with vitamin D. Finally we had Margaret Thatcher, famously the 'milk snatcher', for stopping free school milk.
In the UK we do get vitamin D randomly added to processed foods (what else?) and this is a scattergun approach to fortifying the population. If you don't eat processed foods then you are not going to get any of that processed food fortification goodness.
Then there are the animal corpse sources, as in oily fish and whatnot. If you eat any diet except for whole-food-plant-based vegan, then you are going to get vitamin D either through dead animal or fortification. Vegetarians just have to eat maaassivve blocks of cheese, which they will, with a few eggs and some breakfast cereal to get their vitamin D needs roughly covered. Junk-food vegans should get some vitamin D goodness from fortifications too, particularly if they consume things like 'oat milk' (as if oats have mammary glands). Pure junk food, a.k.a. 'Standard American Diet', should also be pretty good for vitamin D.
So this only really leaves the whole-food, plant-based, everything-cooked-from-scratch vegan diet as lacking, at least as far as the winter months is concerned. Was this a problem historically? I don't think so. Since people used to work the fields, they had plenty of vitamin D to carry over for winter.
Before we had 'modern day racism' in the UK, we had a situation where the aristocracy had white skin and everyone else had leathery brown skin, from working outside. White skin was proof that you didn't have to work the fields and therefore, you were higher status. Racism pre-dated racism, if you get my drift, it was mere class-based xenophobia back then. To be 'truly white' you had to have no tan.
Since meat was hard to come by, peasants were 95% vegan by default, yet working the fields, so vitamin D deficiency was not a problem, for the 1% aristocracy (since they had their oily fish, red meat and dairy) or for the 99% that had to spend lots of time outdoors.
I am not sure where you are coming from regarding the Gulf Stream and cereals. The Fertile Crescent was where farming began for Europe, with wheat not actually growing in the UK and other grains (barley) being the chosen grain. It was only with the Norman Conquest that wheat made it to the UK.
When the Romans made it to the UK they were perplexed at what they found. There were two tribes, the nomadic cattle types and the hill fort living grain growers that were not nomadic. The hill forts got in the way of the migration routes between pastures. The Romans were disgusted by the milk drinking since nobody would do that in Rome, where everyone was lactose intolerant, unlike the Celts.
That and (later) refrigeration allowed dairy products to be transported to the cities, which helped with calcium intake, as well as vitamin D.
Presumably, children need regular and consistent amounts due to bone growth. Once past puberty, less mineralization of calcium and phosphate happens, which is one of the processes in the body that requires vitamin D.
Getting sufficient vitamin D takes 6x longer sun exposure for black people than for white people. [2]
1: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7913332/
2: https://news.feinberg.northwestern.edu/2011/09/20/vitamin-d/
My favorite one that I read about is mushrooms. If you grow them in the sun, some species allegedly acquire vitamin D. I am not sure how much nor if this is truly effective, but it gives me a good excuse to grow various mushrooms next spring.
This might just mean that bodies that are better at managing their vitamin D stores are also healthier in many other aspects which isn't all that surprising.
https://www.artofmanliness.com/health-fitness/health/podcast...
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12502225/
- running around outside, because physical activity if healthy
- spending an afternoon in the company of good friends or family
- gardening, which can produce veggies that are pesticide free
Not everything is a biochemical direct benefit of the sun’s rays. Some of the positive effects are a few steps removed.
There are no devices that can produce a full-spectrum light like the one you get from the sun. So my suggestion would be to go outside and breathe instead of sitting in a box.
Utah Minnesota Vermont Arizona Iowa Idaho New Hampshire South Dakota Nebraska Kentucky
https://statecancerprofiles.cancer.gov/incidencerates/index....
Skin damage, and skin cancer, is not just about the sun. It is about genetics and nutrition as well.
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