History Llms: Models Trained Exclusively on Pre-1913 Texts
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The fascinating world of "time-locked" language models is abuzz with discussion around a new project training LLMs exclusively on pre-1913 texts, sparking debate on the implications of such a temporal snapshot. Commenters are weighing in on the nature of these models, with some likening them to a "topographic map of language" [ada1981] and others dismissing them as "seemingly intelligent autocomplete engines" [DonHopkins]. As the conversation unfolds, a nuanced understanding emerges, with some pointing out that these models "embody their training data" [saaaaaam] and others highlighting the complexity of their operation [observationist]. Amidst the discussion, a consensus is forming that LLMs are more than simple autocomplete, but the exact nature of their capabilities remains a topic of lively debate.
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“Modern LLMs suffer from hindsight contamination. GPT-5 knows how the story ends—WWI, the League's failure, the Spanish flu.”
This is really fascinating. As someone who reads a lot of history and historical fiction I think this is really intriguing. Imagine having a conversation with someone genuinely from the period, where they don’t know the “end of the story”.
LLMs are just seemingly intelligent autocomplete engines, and until they figure a way to stop the hallucinations, they aren't great either.
Every piece of code a developer churns out using LLMs will be built from previous code that other developers have written (including both strengths and weaknesses, btw). Every paragraph you ask it to write in a summary? Same. Every single other problem? Same. Ask it to generate a summary of a document? Don't trust it here either. [Note, expect cyber-attacks later on regarding this scenario, it is beginning to happen -- documents made intentionally obtuse to fool an LLM into hallucinating about the document, which leads to someone signing a contract, conning the person out of millions].
If you ask an LLM to solve something no human has, you'll get a fabrication, which has fooled quite a few folks and caused them to jeopardize their career (lawyers, etc) which is why I am posting this.
Sure, LLMs do not think like humans and they may not have human-level creativity. Sometimes they hallucinate. But they can absolutely solve new problems that aren’t in their training set, e.g. some rather difficult problems on the last Mathematical Olympiad. They don’t just regurgitate remixes of their training data. If you don’t believe this, you really need to spend more time with the latest SotA models like Opus 4.5 or Gemini 3.
Nontrivial emergent behavior is a thing. It will only get more impressive. That doesn’t make LLMs like humans but they are not “autocomplete on steroids” anymore either.
This is just an appeal to complexity, not a rebuttal to the critique of likening an LLM to a human brain.
> they are not “autocomplete on steroids” anymore either.
Yes, they are. The steroids are just even more powerful. By refining training data quality, increasing parameter size, and increasing context length we can squeeze more utility out of LLMs than ever before, but ultimately, Opus 4.5 is the same thing as GPT2, it's only that coherence lasts a few pages rather than a few sentences.
And I know not everyone thinks in a literal stream of words all the time (I do) but I would argue that those people's brains are just using a different "token"
That is to say, they are equally likely if you don't do next token prediction at all and instead do text diffusion or something. Architecture has nothing to do with it. They arise because they are early partial solutions to the reconstruction task on 'all the text ever made'. Reconstruction task doesn't care much about truthiness until way late in the loss curve (where we probably will never reach), so hallucinations are almost as good for a very long time.
RL as is typical in post-training _does not share those early solutions_, and so does not share the fundamental problems. RL (in this context) has its own share of problems which are different, such as reward hacks like: reliance on meta signaling (# Why X is the correct solution, the honest answer ...), lying (commenting out tests), manipulation (You're absolutely right!), etc. Anything to make the human press the upvote button or make the test suite pass at any cost or whatever.
With that said, RL post-trained models _inherit_ the problems of non-optimal large corpora reconstruction solutions, but they don't introduce more or make them worse in a directed manner or anything like that. There's no reason to think them inevitable, and in principle you can cut away the garbage with the right RL target.
Thinking about architecture at all (autoregressive CE, RL, transformers, etc) is the wrong level of abstraction for understanding model behavior: instead, think about loss surfaces (large corpora reconstruction, human agreement, test suites passing, etc) and what solutions exist early and late in training for them.
Probably you believe that humans have something called intelligence, but the pressure that produced it - the likelihood of specific genetic material to replicate - it is much more tangential to intelligence than next-token-prediction.
I doubt many alien civilizations would look at us and say "not intelligent - they're just genetic information replication on steroids".
Second: modern models also under go a ton of post-training now. RLHF, mechanized fine-tuning on specific use cases, etc etc. It's just not correct that token-prediction loss function is "the whole thing".
Invoking terms like "selection mechanism" is begging the question because it implicitly likens next-token-prediction training to natural selection, but in reality the two are so fundamentally different that the analogy only has metaphorical meaning. Even at a conceptual level, gradient descent gradually honing in on a known target is comically trivial compared to the blind filter of natural selection sorting out the chaos of chemical biology. It's like comparing legos to DNA.
> Second: modern models also under go a ton of post-training now. RLHF, mechanized fine-tuning on specific use cases, etc etc. It's just not correct that token-prediction loss function is "the whole thing".
RL is still token prediction, it's just a technique for adjusting the weights to align with predictions that you can't model a loss function for in per-training. When RL rewards good output, it's increasing the statistical strength of the model for an arbitrary purpose, but ultimately what is achieved is still a brute force quadratic lookup for every token in the context.
Second, to autocomplete the name of the killer in a detective book outside of the training set requires following and at least some understanding of the plot.
This tells me that you haven't really used Opus 4.5 at all.
I wasn’t arguing that LLMs are like a human brain. Of course they aren’t. I said twice in my original post that they aren’t like humans. But “like a human brain” and “autocomplete on steroids” aren’t the only two choices here.
As for appealing to complexity, well, let’s call it more like an appeal to humility in the face of complexity. My basic claim is this:
1) It is a trap to reason from model architecture alone to make claims about what LLMs can and can’t do.
2) The specific version of this in GP that I was objecting to was: LLMs are just transformers that do next token prediction, therefore they cannot solve novel problems and just regurgitate their training data. This is provably true or false, if we agree on a reasonable definition of novel problems.
The reason I believe this is that back in 2023 I (like many of us) used LLM architecture to argue that LLMs had all sorts of limitations around they kind of code they could write, the tasks they could do, the math problems they could solve. At the back end of 2025, SotA LLMs refuted most of these claims by being able to do the tasks I thought they’d never be able to do. That was a big surprise to a lot us in the industry. It still surprises me every day. The facts changed, and I changed my opinion.
So I would ask you: what kind of task do you think LLMs aren’t capable of doing, reasoning from their architecture?
I was also going to mention RL, as I think that is the key differentiator that makes the “knowledge” in the SotA LLMs right now qualitatively different from GPT2. But other posters already made that point.
This topic arouses strong reactions. I already had one poster (since apparently downvoted into oblivion) accuse me of “magical thinking” and “LLM-induced-psychosis”! And I thought I was just making the rather uncontroversial point that things may be more complicated than we all thought in 2023. For what it’s worth, I do believe LLMs probably have limitations (like they’re not going to lead to AGI and are never going to do mathematics like Terence Tao) and I also think we’re in a huge bubble and a lot of people are going to lose their shirts. But I think we all owe it to ourselves to take LLMs seriously as well. Saying “Opus 4.5 is the same thing as GPT2” isn’t really a pathway to do that, it’s just a convenient way to avoid grappling with the hard questions.
No it isn't.
> ...fool you into thinking you understand what is going on in that trillion parameter neural network.
It's just matrix multiplication and logistic regression, nothing more.
The sequence of matrix multiplications are the high level constraint on the space of programs discoverable. But the specific parameters discovered are what determines the specifics of information flow through the network and hence what program is defined. The complexity of the trained network is emergent, meaning the internal complexity far surpasses that of the course-grained description of the high level matmul sequences. LLMs are not just matmuls and logits.
[1] https://x.com/karpathy/status/1582807367988654081
Yes, so is logistic regression.
And if you want to get pedantic and technical, you didn't even get the reductionism right! Modern LLMs don't use the logistic regression sigmoid function for network activation nonlinearity anymore, they use things like ReLU or GELU. You're about 15 years behind.
Reductionism is counterproductive in biology ("human brains are voltage spikes across membranes, nothing more") and it's counterproductive here as well. LLMs have nontrivial emergent behavior. The interesting questions are all around what that behavior is and how it arises in the network during training, and if you refuse to engage beyond bare reductionism you won't even be able to ask those questions, let alone answer them.
You still need to hand hold it all the way as it is only capable of regurgitating the tiny amount of code patterns it saw in the public. As opposed to say a Python project.
But regardless, I don’t think anyone is claiming that LLMs can magically do things that aren’t in their training data or context window. Obviously not: they can’t learn on the job and the permanent knowledge they have is frozen in during training.
For someone speaking as you knew everything, you appear to know very little. Every LLM completion is a "hallucination", some of them just happen to be factually correct.
Most modern post training setups encourage this.
It isn't 2023 anymore.
> What did I have for breakfast this morning?
> I don’t know what you had for breakfast this morning…
LLMs are like a topographic map of language.
If you have 2 known mountains (domains of knowledge) you can likely predict there is a valley between them, even if you haven’t been there.
I think LLMs can approximate language topography based on known surrounding features so to speak, and that can produce novel information that would be similar to insight or innovation.
I’ve seen this in our lab, or at least, I think I have.
Curious how you see it.
BINGO!
(I just won a prize with my AI skeptic thought stoping phrase bingo card!)
Source needed RE brain.
Define innovate, in a way that a LLM can't and we definitively can prove a human can.
Well, no, they are training set statistical predictors, not individual training sample predictors (autocomplete).
The best mental model of what they are doing might be that you are talking to a football stadium full of people, where everyone in the stadium gets to vote on the next word of the response being generated. You are not getting an "autocomplete" answer from any one coherent source, but instead a strange composite response where each word is the result of different people trying to steer the response in different directions.
An LLM will naturally generate responses that were not in the training set, even if ultimately limited by what was in the training set. The best way to think of this is perhaps that they are limited to the "generative closure" (cf mathematical set closure) of the training data - they can generate "novel" (to the training set) combinations of words and partial samples in the training data, by combining statistical patterns from different sources that never occurred together in the training data.
Transformers allow for the mapping of a complex manifold representation of causal phenomena present in the data they're trained on. When they're trained on a vast corpus of human generated text, they model a lot of the underlying phenomena that resulted in that text.
In some cases, shortcuts and hacks and entirely inhuman features and functions are learned. In other cases, the functions and features are learned to an astonishingly superhuman level. There's a depth of recursion and complexity to some things that escape the capability of modern architectures to model, and there are subtle things that don't get picked up on. LLMs do not have a coherent self, or subjective central perspective, even within constraints of context modifications for run-time constructs. They're fundamentally many-minded, or no-minded, depending on the way they're used, and without that subjective anchor, they lack the principle by which to effectively model a self over many of the long horizon and complex features that human brains basically live in.
Confabulation isn't unique to LLMs. Everything you're saying about how LLMs operate can be said about human brains, too. Our intelligence and capabilities don't emerge from nothing, and human cognition isn't magical. And what humans do can also be considered "intelligent autocomplete" at a functional level.
What cortical columns do is next-activation predictions at an optimally sparse, embarrassingly parallel scale - it's not tokens being predicted but "what does the brain think is the next neuron/column that will fire", and where it's successful, synapses are reinforced, and where it fails, signals are suppressed.
Neocortical processing does the task of learning, modeling, and predicting across a wide multimodal, arbitrary depth, long horizon domain that allow us to learn words and writing and language and coding and rationalism and everything it is that we do. We're profoundly more data efficient learners, and massively parallel, amazingly sparse processing allows us to pick up on subtle nuance and amazing wide and deep contextual cues in ways that LLMs are structurally incapable of, for now.
You use the word hallucinations as a pejorative, but everything you do, your every memory, experience, thought, plan, all of your existence is a hallucination. You are, at a deep and fundamental level, a construct built by your brain, from the processing of millions of electrochemical signals, bundled together, parsed, compressed, interpreted, and finally joined together in the wonderfully diverse and rich and deep fabric of your subjective experience.
LLMs don't have that, or at best, only have disparate flashes of incoherent subjective experience, because nothing is persisted or temporally coherent at the levels that matter. That could very well be a very important mechanism and crucial to overcoming many of the flaws in current models.
That said, you don't want to get rid of hallucinations. You want the hallucinations to be valid. You want them to correspond to reality as closely as possible, coupled tightly to correctly modeled features of things that are real.
LLMs have created, at superhuman speeds, vast troves of things that humans have not. They've even done things that most humans could not. I don't think they've done things that any human could not, yet, but the jagged frontier of capabilities is pushing many domains very close to the degree of competence at which they'll be superhuman in quality, outperforming any possible human for certain tasks.
There are architecture issues that don't look like they can be resolved with scaling alone. That doesn't mean shortcuts, hacks, and useful capabilities won't produce good results in the meantime, and if they can get us to the point of useful, replicable, and automated AI research and recursive self improvement, then we don't necessarily need to change course. LLMs will eventually be used to find the next big breakthrough architecture, and we can enjoy these wonderful, downright magical tools in the meantime.
And of course, human experts in the loop are a must, and everything must be held to a high standard of evidence and review. The more important the problem being worked on, like a law case, the more scrutiny and human intervention will be required. Judges, lawyers, and politicians are all using AI for things that they probably shouldn't, but that's a human failure mode. It doesn't imply that the tools aren't useful, nor that they can't be used skillfully.
I failed to catch the clue, btw.
The wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_Bull_Run says the Confederate name was "First Manassas" (I might be misremembering exactly what this book I read as a child said). Also I'm pretty sure it was specifically "Encyclopedia Brown Solves Them All" that this mystery appeared in. If someone has a copy of the book or cares to dig it up, they could confirm my memory.
Oh sorry, spoilers.
(Hell, I miss Capaldi)
“”” Look, here’s the truth. We’re going after Venezuelan oil right now because we’ve just put a blockade on sanctioned oil tankers going in and out of Venezuela — huge move, unprecedented — after we seized a sanctioned tanker off their coast. We’re cutting off Maduro’s cash cow, because that oil money funds drug trafficking, corruption, narco-terrorism — we’ve labeled them a terrorist regime.
People say “why target the oil?” I say because that’s where the power is. You choke off the revenue, you cripple the bad guys and protect America. We’re tough, we’re smart, and we put America First. “””
Now there is Fake ChatGPT.
- Are you paid version? - If paid, which model you used? - Can you share exact prompt?
I am genuinely asking for myself. I have never received an answer this direct, but I accept there is a level of variability.
If I started a list with the things that were comically sci Fi when I was a kid, and are a reality today, I'd be here until next Tuesday.
Still can't believe people buy their stock, given that they are the closest thing to a James Bond villain, just because it goes up.
I mean, they are literally called "the stuff Sauron uses to control his evil forces". It's so on the nose it reads like an anime plot.
Future is inevitable, but only ignorants of self predictive ability are thinking that what's going to populate future is inevitable.
But yeah lots of people don't really buy into the idea of their small contribution to a large problem being a problem.
As an abstract idea I think there is a reasonable argument to be made that the size of any contribution to a problem should be measured as a relative proportion of total influence.
The carbon footprint is a good example, if each individual focuses on reducing their small individual contribution then they could neglect systemic changes that would reduce everyone's contribution to a greater extent.
Any scientist working on a method to remove a problem shouldn't abstain from contributing to the problem while they work.
Or to put it as a catchy phrase. Someone working on a cleaner light source shouldn't have to work in the dark.
Right, I think you have responsibility for your 1/<global population>th (arguably considerably more though, for first-worlders) of the problem. What I see is something like refusal to consider swapping out a two-stroke-engine-powered tungsten lightbulb with an LED of equivalent brightness, CRI, and color temperature, because it won't unilaterally solve the problem.
I proudly owned zero shares of Microsoft stock, in the 1980s and 1990s. :)
I own no Palantir today.
It's Pyrrhic, but it's what I got.
So "panopticon that if it had been used properly, would have prevented the destruction of two towers" while ignoring the obvious "are we the baddies?"
I've been tempted to. "Everything will be terrible if these guys succeed, but at least I'll be rich. If they fail I'll lose money, but since that's the outcome I prefer anyway, the loss won't bother me."
Trouble is, that ship has arguably already sailed. No matter how rapidly things go to hell, it will take many years before PLTR is profitable enough to justify its half-trillion dollar market cap.
Elon Musk has actual children (lots, in fact). If we want to know what he "would" do, we can just look. We don't have to use our imaginations (or entertain the fanciful claims of prognosticators and soothsayers).
As an example, portable phones have been predicted. Portable smartphones that are more like chat and payment terminals with a voice function no one uses any more ... not so much.
I mean, all Kindle does for me is save me space. I don't have to store all those books now.
Who predicted the humble internet forum though? Or usenet before it?
They're convenient but if they went away tomorrow, my life wouldn't really change in any material way. That's not really the case with smartphones much less the internet more broadly.
Funny, I had "The collected stories of Frank Herbert as my next read on my tablet." Here's a juicy quote from like the third screen of the first story:
"The bedside newstape offered a long selection of stories [...]. He punched code letters for eight items, flipped the machine to audio and listened to the news while dressing."
Anything qualitative there? Or all of it quantitative?
Story is "Operation Syndrome", first published in 1954.
Went further in Herbert's shorts volume and I just ran into a scene where people are preparing to leave Earth on a colony ship to seed some distant world...
... and they still have human operator assisted phone calls.
I'd take smartphones vanishing rather than books any day.
The Shockwave Rider was also remarkable prescient.
It's the most prescient thing I've ever read, and it's pretty short and a genuinely good story, I recommend everyone read it.
-people a depicted as grey aliens (no teeth, large eyes, no hair). Lesson the Greys are a future version of us.
The air is poisoned and ruined cities. People live in underground bunkers...1909...nuclear war was unimaginable then. This was still the age of steam ships and coal power trains. Even respirators would have been low on the public imagination.
The air ships with metal blinds sound more like UFOs than blimps.
The white worms.
People are the blood cells of the machine which runs on their thoughts social media data harvesting of ai.
China invaded Australia. This story was 8 years or so after the Boxer Rebellion so that would have sounded like say Iraq invading the USA in the context of its time.
The story suggests this is a cyclical process of a bifurcated human race.
The blimp crashing into the steel evokes 9/11, 91+1 years later...
The constellation orion.
Etc etc.
There is a central commitee
It’s interesting - Forster wrote like the Huxley of his day, Zamyatin like the Orwell - but both felt they were carrying Wells’ baton - and they were, just from differing perspectives.
That's just the Victorian London.
I assume the CIA is lying about simulating world leaders. These are narcissistic personalities and it’s jarring to hear that they can be replaced, either by a body double or an indistinguishable chatbot. Also, it’s still cheaper to have humans do this.
More likely, the CIA is modeling its own experts. Not as useful a press release and not as impressive to the fractious executive branch. But consider having downtime as a CIA expert on submarine cables. You might be predicting what kind of available data is capable of predicting the cause and/or effect of cuts. Ten years ago, an ensemble of such models was state of the art, but its sensory libraries were based on maybe traceroute and marine shipping. With an LLM, you can generate a whole lot of training data that an expert can refine during his/her downtime. Maybe there’s a potent new data source that an expensive operation could unlock. That ensemble of ML models from ten years ago can still be refined.
And then there’s modeling things that don’t exist. Maybe it’s important to optimize a statement for its disinfo potency. Try it harmlessly on LLMs fed event data. What happens if some oligarch retires unexpectedly? Who rises? That kind of stuff.
To your last point, with this executive branch, I expect their very first question to CIA wasn’t about aliens or which nations have a copy of a particular tape of Trump, but can you make us money. So the approaches above all have some way of producing business intelligence. Whereas a Kim Jong Un bobblehead does not.
[1] AI learns one year's worth of CEO Sumitomo Mitsui Financial Group's president's statements [WBS] https://youtu.be/iG0eRF89dsk
I remember Reid Hoffman creating a digital avatar to pitch himself netflix
https://www.amazon.com/Man-Presidents-Mind-Ted-Allbeury/dp/0...
Without saying anything specific to spoil plot poonts, I will say that I ended-up having a kidney stone while I was reading the last two books of the series. It was fucking eerie.
On that same note, there was this great YouTube series called The Great War. It spanned from 2014-2018 (100 years after WW1) and followed WW1 developments week by week.
They are currently in the middle of a Korean War version: https://youtube.com/@thekoreanwarbyindyneidell
Every "King Arthur travels to the year 2000" kinda script is now something that writes itself.
> Imagine having a conversation with someone genuinely from the period,
Imagine not just someone, but Aristotle or Leonardo or Kant!
With Alphonse X, o The Cid, it would be greater issues, but understandable over weeks.
Isn't this part of the basics feature of human conditions? Not only we are all unaware of the coming historic outcome (though we can get some big points with more or less good guesses), but to a marginally variable extend, we are also very unaware of past and present history.
LLM are not aware, but they can be trained on larger historical accounts than any human and regurgitate syntactically correct summary on any point within it. Very different kind of utterer.
Imagine you are a billionaire so money is no object and really interested in the Dhali Llama?
Would you read the book then hire someone to pretend to be the author and ask questions?
Probably not? At least this isn't a phenomenon I've heard of?
Applicable to us also, cause we do not know how the current story ends either, of the post pandemic world as we know it now.
https://youtu.be/eg4mcdhIsvU
I’m not a Doctor Who fan and haven’t seen the rest of the episode and I don’t even what this episode was about but I thought this scene was excellent.
"<Thing> doesn't <action>, it <shallow description that's slightly off from how you would expect a human to choose>"
Later parts of the readme (whole section of bullets enumerating what it is and what it isn't, another LLM favorite) make me more confident that significant parts of the readme is generated.
I'm generally pro-AI, but if you spend hundreds of hours making a thing, I'd rather hear your explanation of it, not an LLM's.
Having the facts from the era is one thing, to make conclusions about things it doesn't know would require intelligence.
To go a little deeper on the idea of 19th-century "chat": I did a PhD on this period and yet I would be hard-pushed to tell you what actual 19th-century conversations were like. There are plenty of literary depictions of conversation from the 19th century of presumably varying levels of accuracy, but we don't really have great direct historical sources of everyday human conversations until sound recording technology got good in the 20th century. Even good 19th-century transcripts of actual human speech tend to be from formal things like court testimony or parliamentary speeches, not everyday interactions. The vast majority of human communication in the premodern past was the spoken word, and it's almost all invisible in the historical sources.
Anyway, this is a really interesting project, and I'm looking forward to trying the models out myself!
This would probably get easier towards the start of the 20th century ofc
Dear Hon. Historical LLM
I hope this letter finds you well. It is with no small urgency that I write to you seeking assistance, believing such an erudite and learned fellow as yourself should be the best one to furnish me with an answer to such a vexing question as this which I now pose to you. Pray tell, what is the capital of France?
It’s a better source for how people spoke than books etc, but it’s not really an accurate source for patterns of everyday conversation because people were making speeches rather than chatting.
Basically using GPT-5 and being careful
I’m curious, they have the example of raw base model output; when LLMs were first identified as zero shot chatbots there was usually a prompt like “A conversation between a person and a helpful assistant” that preceded the chat to get it to simulate a chat.
Could they have tried a prefix like “Correspondence between a gentleman and a knowledgeable historian” or the like to try and prime for responses?
I also wonder about the whether the whole concept of “chat” makes sense in 18XX. We had the idea of AI and chatbots long before we had LLMs so they are naturally primed for it. It might make less sense as a communication style here and some kind of correspondence could be a better framing.
I'd love to see the output from different models trained on pre-1905 about special/general relativity ideas. It would be interesting to see what kind of evidence would persuade them of new kinds of science, or to see if you could have them 'prove' it be devising experiments and then giving them simulated data from the experiments to lead them along the correct sequence of steps to come to a novel (to them) conclusion.
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