Fsf Announces Librephone Project
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The FSF announces the Librephone project to create a free software mobile phone OS based on Android, sparking discussion on its feasibility and potential impact.
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The time is right for this project I hope they succeed.
Otherwise, their website suggests you can specify a particular project via the memo line of a check:
https://www.fsf.org/about/ways-to-donate/
I'm willing to suffer a rough beta or alpha experience, but let me use modern hardware of my choice.
I'm kinda the opposite, I don't want to buy new any more. Currently rocking a 2nd hand Pixel 7a running GrapheneOS and loving it.
If battery life is the issue, that's fair enough. I've bought a couple of wireless charging docks that I spread around the places I frequently spend my time, so if it needs a boost I can charge her up just by plonking it on the dock. Most of the time, though, she makes it through the day from (maximum charge for battery longevity reasons) 80% down to 30%, maybe 25% or 20% if there's lots of interesting news in a day.
But I'm not a particularly heavy user and I don't game on it.
That said, the phone market is huge. They could sell enough devices to fund future development which might be good enough even if it doesn’t slow down Apple or Google. At least then there will be a device for those of us who are not happy with the state of things.
Is there survey data available on this? Anecdotally, everybody I know hates their phones. In fact, I think if you asked, "what's the biggest pain point in your life right now?" I think most people will point to their phones.
Every single one of these is fixable on any modern phone. Stop using social media, take a hatchet to what apps can send you notifications and when, and be more mindful of what tricks are commonly deployed to steal your attention, time, and money.
But people can't even manage that. They don't even have to do anything, they just have to stop doing certain things, but they can't or won't. Those same people aren't going to go through the effort to switch, and even if they did they would end up re-creating the same thing that makes them miserable currently.
If you asked normal average people "what's the biggest pain point in your life right now?" they would point to financial, societal, or health issues.
The vast majority of people when asked specifically about their phones probably wish that they were a newer model or had a longer battery life. As long as it communicates with people, lets them access banking and social media, and has a few of their niche hobby/entertainment apps nobody actually cares about the licensing of the modem firmware or the fact you can't install TempleOS on it.
Talked to many iPhone owners this year? The 17 hardware has a bizarre choice of a camera button / pointless physical change, and IOS 26 is pretty much hated by everyone.
I use iPhone, and have happily for years but F if this isn’t the worst OS I can remember. The first downgrade really.
Android does not contain binary blobs because of some evil conspiracy against free software. If they could get away with it, the whole damn thing would be open source.
The problem is those blobs do things that interact with complex hardware for which only blobs are available. Even if you reverse engineer them, you are going to get sued into oblivion because of the patents you are going to need to infringe on to make functional replacements.
But even if you get a blessing from the component manufacturers, your new hippie binary blobs need to be certified to legally operate on cellular and wifi frequencies in most parts of the world. If you decide you don't like something and change it - as is the open source way - that new version with your modifications needs to be certified too. Carriers do not allow uncertified devices on their networks.
Second, fuck the carriers. Certifications will not persist as soon as real Foss phones are available. Nothing persists against a world of free hardware invading a realm. And even if: freeing everything around a modem blob would still be a big step forward.
It's frankly ridiculous to assume the people working on this and the organisation that already supported replicant knowns nothing about the mobile space.
Cell phones operate in licensed radio spectrum, so they need to have proper testing and certification (https://www.fcc.gov/oet/ea/rfdevice). Any device not properly certified would be illegal to manufacture or import into the US.
Separately cellular networks require PTCRB certification of the devices to ensure they are interoperable with the network (https://www.ptcrb.com/). The FSF could in theory write custom firmware for baseband and wifi chips, but they would need to seek certification as this would be considered a substantial modification. It would likely require cooperation from the chip manufactures to provide samples with various testing/debugging harnesses enabled.
Qualcomm and the like would probably sue to stop the FSF on the basis that it could put their own device certifications into jeopardy.
That isn't even touching on non-transmitting components like GPUs or sensors where the actual functional logic may be split between hardware and software (your blob driver). Even by doing a clean room reimplementation, you risk infringing on software patents, and will have little flexibility to work around them since the hardware will expect things to be done a specific way.
You would think it would be ridiculous to assume the people working on this know nothing about the mobile space, yet their actions do bring that into question.
All that patent and legal business is probably a more important/existential concern and a go/nogo-factor if you want to be a commercial player in a market-driven environment and less so for an entity like the FSF.
If it all was open source, the community could quite easily provide updates - you can run a modern Linux distro on 10+ years old laptop just fine.
Who is "they"? Certainly not Google. Google has been moving open-source Android functionality into the closed-source Google Play Services for many years.
I'm not. Samsung treats my phone like dirt. I'd love to have some actual ownership of a device I spent $900 on last year.
I don't think my wife is happy with her iPhone either. She bought one of those little NFC fridge magnet things that locks your phone out of social media apps. She and I are dissatisfied in different ways, but there's a theme here.
Maybe thats exactly why it can succeed now. The phone tech has plateud to the point where a 5 year old phone performs almost identically as a new one and this is when people can afford to experiment and take more risks.
Also its much easier for free software to catch up now as most problems are already solved and/or easy to copy.
That being said, very low expectations on this project.
They don’t need to replace or even challenge Apple and Google for market adoption, just be there and be a viable alternative used by a noticeable minority of people.
Getting half as far as desktop linux would be a fantastic achievement.
It makes more sense that they're referring to Apple Pay or similar shenanigans (which itself is more annoying than a credit card, to be honest, Face ID goes wrong or the double click closes the wallet app instead of authenticating way too many times, especially if you're trying to do it one-handed).
> I don't think you're the target market for this phone.
My comment is downstream of the entertaining of a possibility of:
> a significant user base that runs alternative operating systems
... which isn't going to happen if you ask your users to give up commonly used features. It will forever be a niche project, at best.
Get 3% and rebate some to the customer. For the convenience.
It’s kind of sad, really.
People do proprietary bullshit because they want to do proprietary bullshit. Anything else is made up.
WTF? What kind of shitty banking system are you using?
Bank transfers and I guess direct debit authorisations (if your bank requires you to confirm those) and reauthorisation/confirmation of card payments that were blocked by the bank's fraud detection. I think those are the only kinds of transactions one would ever use a PC for? I mean for me most of my day-to-day transactions are me paying by debit card in a shop, but you can't do that on a PC in the first place; pretty much everything else I do on my PC.
But sending a bank transfer is also a fairly common day-to-day transaction that I do a couple of times a month (and is the only way to pay for some government services like tax certificates short of visiting the tax office in person). Authorising a new direct debit happens occasionally (joined a gym, changed my utility provider, got a new credit card, that kind of thing).
The only supported 2FA is the bank's own dedicated 2FA app.
They just use an SMS code instead which is not secure at all.
why not distribute hw tokens for purposes like this? it has the least flaws IMO.
To hack the banks app you have to find an exploit in iOS or Android which would allow you to read the other apps private storage, which is borderline impossible now. To hack the banks website you just have to buy some random browser extension and add malware to it, or break into someones NPM account and distribute it there, or any number of ways to run code on someone else's computer. Something very achievable by an individual.
Does it? The browser doesn't do anything, the person sitting at the computer where the browser is running is what performs the actions. The reauthentication and 2fa is meant to authenticate and authorize the user, not the browser.
The attack vector of someone else using your phone using an app that doesn't require (re)authentication is independent of the browser or the app itself being trusted. That your bank doesn't periodically require some kind of re-authentication for their app is a security hole, but because the device could fall into the wrong hands, not because the code/app/browser used to access it isn't trusted.
If I steal your device, and you didn’t have faceid, I have both factors. But if I steal your password, or find it in a leak of another site because like most people you re-use passwords, then I only have one factor. It still provides a fair bit of security because of that.
2FA on the same device secures against your login credentials becoming known to another party, e.g. by fishing, password reuse, database leaks, etc., which are real threats. It is not meant to protect against someone being in possession or full control of your unlocked device, which is of course also a real threat, though possibly less common.
My other bank offers 2FA via chip reader as an alternative. I guess that's somewhat viable for an alternative phone OS, if you want to carry the reader around with you
That might just be European banks though
I tried calling Starling Bank in the UK when my phone screen stopped working. I assumed they would have basic phone banking service.
They told me no. The only service they could provide over the phone was registering a new device to resume access to bank services via their mobile app.
Although they have a web banking service, which can he used on a desktop, that requires authentication via the mobile app too. It's not TOTP, it's their own thing.
As I needed to make a transaction, I had no choice but to buy a new phone in a hurry.to do it.
Several people suggest switching banks and credit card services, but I've found that not so easy. I have accounts with several banks (some for business), and 3 of them require use of their mobile app. Most credit card services I use also require use of their app. Some have websites that hand you over to the app at some point in the flow.
I've encountered cases when both behaviours would've been desired (either use the cached version, or the latest version), so I think that's neither a point in favour nor against.
I think real caching is superior because you can manually reload if you actually needed that, but you can't go in the other direction.
The phone I really want is as uncomplicated and open as possible and beholden to no corporate economic interests or privacy invasions.
Now that I'm retired I'm looking for a project to immerse myself in. This sounds like just the ticket.
Also many websites are making it remarkably hard to not use the app if they even remotely sense you're not on an actual PC. FB and LinkedIn aren't banks but prime examples.
I like my credit union.
Indian banks provide their full suite of services through WhatsApp. I have opened and closed accounts, completed KYC and authorised transfers through it.
A free OS will empower developers to implement technical workarounds that could trick these apps into working there. If the OS is tightly controlled, we have no recourse.
Even in the worst case scenario, we could use a cheap big-tech-approved phone for these applications (a glorified digital token) and use the free phone for everything else. When there's enough adoption and trust in the new phone, non-technical avenues are available to influence these organizations to accept the alternative.
If you can't be sure what's going on and unable to inspect or debug the hardware and software, how can you trust it's doing what you want?
Proprietary hardware and software is already known to work against the interests of the user. Not knowing exactly what's going on is being taken advantage of at large scale.
Let's put it this way: if you can choose between making your own lasagna with a good recipe vs ready-made microwave lasagna. What would you choose? How about your suit? And would you trust an open known to work well pacemaker vs the latest Motorola or Samsung pacemaker? Would you rather verify the device independently or pay up for an SLA?
You trust hardware and software by establishing boundaries. We figured this out long ago with the kernel mode/user mode privilege check and other things. You want apps to be heavily locked down/sandboxed, and you want the OS to enforce it, but every time you do you go up against the principles of open source absolutists like the FSF. "What do you mean my app can't dig into the storage layer and read the raw image files? So what if apps could use that to leak user location data, I need that ability so I can tell if it's a picture of a bird"
For sensitive information - such as financial transactions - the rewards for bad actors are simply too high to trust any device which has been rooted. The banks - who are generally on the hook if something goes wrong, or at least have to pay a lot of lawyers to get off the hook - are not interested in moral arguments, they want a risk-reduced environment or no app for you - as is their right.
If their security depends on enslaving the user, their security sucks.
Real security, be it your financial transactions or keeping your bird pictures safe, doesn't depend on any secret algorithm. Because it's secure.
I don't have this problem on my computers, they run free software. My wifes thinkpad runs free software. The friends I gave a computer with various GNU+Linux distros don't have this problem.
Add Google Chrome with its spammy extensions to the mix and they start getting problems.
If they pay for the phone and ship it to you then I agree. Otherwise, they have an obligation to serve their community (part of their banking charter) and that may include meeting their customers where they are, rather than offering an app with unreasonable usage requirements.
Well, no. The objection isn't to sandboxing apps, but to sandboxing the user, as it were. On my laptop, I run my browser in a sandbox (eg. bubblewrap, though the implementation of choice shifts with time), but as the user I control that sandbox. Likewise, on my phone, I'm still quite happy that my apps have to ask for assorted permissions; it's just that I should be able to give permission to read my photos if I choose.
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20030901-00/?p=42...
It was true 22 years ago and is even more true today.
This is reasonably secure. If you hijack my account, you still don't have the hardware device and the random secret that was set up between the device and the bank.
You need to actually hack into the bank itself to transfer my money elsewhere.
Meanwhile, I only access the bank with my own computers. That means I installed them and have root. Not a problem at all.
In practice, that just means you trust a Chinese black box Android ROM from a random manufacturer, but not a fresh Lineage OS. To run some banking apps there, one has to root it and install all kinds of crap to hide the fact that your phone is running an OS you actually can trust.
I don't think it's right, I don't think non-manufacturer provided ROMs are a real danger in practice, or rooted phones, and I think this is all just security theater and an excuse to control what people do on their own devices.
In other words, should the device be responsible to enforcing DRM (and more) against its owner?
I have an old phone (actually running LineageOS rather than stock) that works as you perfectly describe as a glorified digital token. This device doesn't come with me. There's no banking I need to do, on a day-to-day basis, requiring said token, that has to be done right now or the world will end. It can wait until I get home (and I usually use the bank's web interface from a desktop). This device has minimal other apps installed, which limits bank app accessibility of other app data, and other app accessibility of bank data.
Then my GrapheneOS daily driver serves my day-to-day needs with minimal data leakage, tracking, ads, other general paranoia-inducing modern-life shit.
I pay for things on a day-to-day basis with a physical debit card due to an existing habit of not wanting to depending on a single device for "all the things", so GrapeheneOS wasn't a downgrade, but it should be noted to others that whilst Google Wallet can run on GrapheneOS, NFC payments through the Google Wallet will not work due to Full SafetyNet requirements that GrapheneOS can not pass. Non-NFC items such as tickets and boarding passes have been reported to work (and I'm pretty sure I've used it for that, although Google Wallet is no longer installed on my device).
If it came by SMS my daily driver would receive it.
(I don't mean this in a sarcastic way) are you able to make tangible what 'living' I may be sacrificing?
If that became the case, then the 'glorified token device' would become the dedicated banking device, and not much else would change (ie. I still wouldn't be doing 'banking' while I'm out and about).
See the recent discussion about pixnapping: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45574613
Also, if your bank uses SMS for verification then the phone should have its own phone number which you keep secret. Otherwise it's one data leak and one sim swap attack (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_swap_scam) from breaking your SMS verification.
Not if they require something like hardware-backed remote attestation, and only accept such attestation from Google or Apple.
I'd love a practical Linux phone, and being able to run a deblobbed close-to-mainline kernel on a new-ish phone would help with that, but that doesn't really solve the most user-facing problem of mobile phones, the ecosystem lockdown.
I remember the stagnation of Internet Explorer combined with increased awareness of security exploits in Windows and Internet Explorer led to the rise of Mozilla Firefox and (to a lesser extent) increased marketshare for the Mac. This, combined with the arrival of smartphones around 2007, put pressure on organizations to make their Web sites accessible to a wider range of browsers instead of just IE.
Perhaps if we had a critical mass of people using phones with FOSS software, this would be enough for banks and other organizations to consider people who don’t use Apple/Google products.
The challenge, though, is getting that critical mass. Firefox benefitted from Microsoft’s fumbles in the 2000s. It’s going to be hard for a FOSS project to compete head-on against Apple and Google.
Just because pieces are open-source (or "free software") doesn't mean the autonomy and capabilities we want are necessarily present in the overall system.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45562286
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