Donut Lab’s All-Solid-State Battery Delivers 400 Wh/kg of Energy Density
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The battery world is buzzing with Donut Lab's bold claim of an all-solid-state battery boasting 400 Wh/kg of energy density, but commenters are tempering their excitement with healthy skepticism. While some point out that the company's tech is already being integrated into products like the Verge motorcycle, others question the lack of concrete evidence, such as a teardown or detailed test data. As one commenter astutely noted, "Not even a teardown. Just a few charge + discharge cycles, measuring the energy," highlighting the need for more transparency. The debate is heating up, with some calling it a potential game-changer and others labeling it a possible scam, making this thread a riveting watch for anyone tracking advancements in battery technology.
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I doubt they'd sell to endusers, but not having any partnerships with established brands with sales figures is a big red flag.
No mention of manufacturing capabilities either so I think it's just hype (or worse a rug pull for early investors)
Base price $35,000 with the good battery.
Solid state batteries have been working for a while now, but they're still far too expensive. Mercedes has one demo car. Ducati has one demo motorcycle. Maybe they just decided to accept the high cost and sell a high-end product.
[1] https://www.vergemotorcycles.com/
If the product is on the market and you can buy one and walk out the door, I feel like claims can easily be validated or invalidated with a tear down.
I've had a brief test ride on a pre-production version of the Verge TS. All seemed OK but I thought the handling seemed weird - maybe due to the rear tyre size and geometry.
Robbie from SAE International, who is of the hosts, and an avid motorcyclist, is impressed with the bike and the promise of SSBs. I only ride bicycles, can’t comment on the bike itself, but thought to share and widen their audience. It was kind of a mini shallow yet “deep dive”. It doesn’t seem to be mentioned on their own site for this episode, but the chapter in Overcast is the last one, linking to https://sustainablecareers.sae.org/article/donut-lab-verge-s...
I hope this battery tech and the statements on the web page are true (370-mile range from an electric motorcycle!), but I'm not writing any checks just yet.
Whittingham worked for ExxonMobil. Akira Yoshino worked at A&T Battery which was a a joint venture of Toshiba and Akira Yoshino. And Yoshio Nishi worked at Sony is.
They were founded in 2011 as a spin-off from ATL, itself founded in 1999 by a Chinese billionaire (Robin Zeng). They definitely didn't pop up out of nowhere.
Totally legit.
You can't just pay $35,000 and ride it away, though. They're just taking pre-orders.
Still, at least you can go kick the tires and make sure it's not just a render on the web site. It's an overly clever design; the rear wheel is hubless.
First, the bike is not new. It's been shipping since 2024, with a conventional battery pack.There are customers and reviews.[1] The "hubless" thing is less hubless than it looks. The rear wheel is the motor, with an outside moving rotor and an inside stator. The stator has a big hole in it. This gives you a large-diameter direct drive motor without dead weight in the center. It also opens up space in the frame to put the battery closer to the ground.
So this is really just an existing bike with a new battery. If they offered a test ride, you'd never know whether it was a solid state battery or not, since that's all about capacity and charging speed.
[1] https://www.wired.com/story/first-ride-verge-ts-pro-electric...
I'd want to uninstall the battery, weigh it, and run a capacity test. I doubt that they will let me.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy_mXYItqXU
https://insideevs.com/news/761403/byd-thousands-megawatt-cha...
Tesla 3MW charger uses 1250V DC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megawatt_Charging_System
Liquid-cooled charging cables are a thing. too; one of many: https://www.mouser.com/new/phoenix-contact/phoenix-contact-5...
Perhaps the problem is the size of the battery being limited in a motorcycle.
If might be for example that in the motorcycle the battery or the other components that have to handle the charge current cannot dissipate heat fast enough to allow charging with the maximum current the batter allows. In an EV the pack shape probably has a higher surface area to volume ratio making it cool better, and an EV might also be able to actively cool it.
No spec sheets though.
[1] https://thenextavenue.com/2025/07/23/how-byds-sodium-ion-bat...
The tech needs to go to another company that can produce something more people are able and willing to buy, and that's going to take a few years before it has a meaningful impact on the market.
https://www.donutlab.com/nordic-nano-investment/
Though their chief scientist is working on solar-powered hydrogen production, which seems fairly unrelated to solid state batteries:
https://www.nordicnano.co/chief-scientist-bela-bhuskute-will...
Nanoprinted snakeoil - infinitely scalable. Good enough to grab 3M€ public grants and some more from gullible private investors.
Honestly, if they had the tiniest proof of their claims (400Wh/kg, 5min 0-100%, operating temp -30°C to 100°C, no Li/Co/Mn and somebody looking at the production and taking the output to the test) they would be absolutely drowned in money to the point that sama would become jealous.
> Factory in Finland, started around Q3/2025. https://yle.fi/a/74-20180376
That is a only picture of a factory building. They are 100% greenwash grant grabbers with no real substance. There are plenty of these people in Europe. The motorcycle is likely in China designed and produced.
If grant grabbing is what you'd consider a fulfilling life, then come to Europe - it will be an El Dorado for you.
So much, yet so little.
City estimate 600km: "The city estimate calculated by Verge aims to provide a reasonable approximation of calm stop-and-go riding in an urban environment at low speeds. The estimate assumes a 75 kg rider and ideal riding conditions in terms of temperature, wind and tire pressure. Actual range varies based on exact riding conditions, riding style and other factors."
Highway estimate 315km: "The highway estimate calculated by Verge aims to provide a reasonable approximation of steady and consistent highway riding at a speed of 90 km/h. The estimate assumes a 75 kg rider and ideal riding conditions in terms of temperature, wind and tire pressure."
Now: "aims to provide a reasonable approximation" is legalese for "we pulled these numbers out of thin air - they are in no way legally binding".
For proper testing according to "EU Regulation 134/2014, Annex VII" the website says 'TBC'. This would be legally binding but -surprise, surprise- they haven't yet found time to do it.
For any practical purpose the range will be between 200km to 250km. Also the bike is not easy to handle due to the high mass distribution to the outside of the wheel.
Btw, the vendor from Verge motorcycles states in the video 80% charge in "about 10 minutes" instead of 100% in 5min. So which one is true? I stand by my claim that this is marketing for gullible buyers and investors.
Bike in question: https://gearjunkie.com/motors/verge-motorcycles-ts-solid-sta...
- range: it's quite.... obvious this is naked and not a sport bike, so the air resistance (or Cx if you prefer) will be very high. Compare any super sport with any naked bike. It's just the profile.
- charging time/rate: you compare maximum hardware capabilities of the raw battery with a vehicle, set up for longevity. Look, there are reasons I don't charge my 18650 batteries with their maximum 5C current, but at a gentle, slow rate. Virtually all the electric cars have default maximum charge set to 80-90% - not because a car maker lied
- and finally handling: we have yet to see it tested, an you already categorically claim this bike will not be easy to handle because of the "high mass distribution to the outside of the wheel" - i refer you to the pictures above. Almost all the mass is low or central to the bike. Just perfect. Far from the awkward, top heavy adv bikes some people ride. Also claimed 1000Nm / 130 HP is far beyond the usual beginner segment, so I'd expect experienced riders will handle it easily.
All in all - maybe your expectations re:battery are true and it's all snake oil. But using the bike as a proof of the falsehood based on your GUESS is not acting in a good faith.
But that is exactly what the CEO claims in the video [1]: "This pack charges in as low a 5min and is still build for longevity [Video shows time lapse of charging from 0%-100%]. You can fast charge every single day for years. [...] It is designed for 100,000 cycles"
Especially for motorcycles that definitely would be a game changer: 5 minute stop to top up to 100% while stretching your legs...
And the guy from Verge Motorcycles says: "A new long range version delivering up to 600km of real world range."
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-aPS2AwMbc @ 10:54 the 600km statement @ 12:59 the talk about the charging
Fair, I was wrong to pick up on that particular one given the above, my apologies, however I'd expect bikes and cars to be set up to charge less and slower anyway.
And I agree for a bikes it would be a game changer. Currently I wouldn't take electric for a few hundred miles ride, too much hassle, but I'd absolutely love the scenario you picture.
Concerning range though, I think their estimate is pretty fair as far as the marketoid speech goes -- it can be 600 km, even though no one will be buying this bike to commute exclusively within city limits while much cheaper moped would be better.
I don't know what 'real world range' means to you. A bike of this size uses roughly 9kWh/100km. The battery has 33kWh capacity you will usually look for a charger at 20% and charge to 80%. So 'real world range' will be around 200-250km.
The last version with a 20kWh battery made a record run from 100% to 0% with 350km. Which translates to 577km on this bigger battery. At least I don't consider the need of a car following me with a trailer a 'real world' scenario.
And another funny thing: if you watch the video, you actually can see that the battery starts to bulb during the charging starting from 67% on and then the video cuts out at 82%...
Btw, the CEO never speaks of cells, only of batteries. In the industry the battery is usually considered the structure plus the cells. He doesn't even speak about a factory or production. So if he buys white label cells in China he is technically not lying.
It is an absolutely fantastic marketing video and cleverly done: Verge says on their website only 33.3kWh capacity and 10min to 80%. We connect the dots in our brains which aren't there.
It is a decent motorbike used to make donut look legit and donut is used to create hype for the motorcycle, likely made in China with a bit of assembly in Europe to call it Finnish.
The motorcycle is real, you can buy it.
I worked for a company in Germany in 2024 and the CEO was quite open about using public grant money as a free gift. The company wasn't build around it but it was a significant part of income. He made engineers sign papers that they had worked on some AI stuff which they didn't. A demonstrator was made with yolo by an intern. He said they have just no competency to figure that out and also that they actually don't want to figure it out.
Or look at the EuroLLM: sounds good on paper, never heard about it again. Grant grabbing is a real industry in Europe with companies specialised on creating grant applications and forming consortiums.
Pretty major point of difference though isn't it? They claim this will be out there in Q1 2026, giving a chance for sceptics and industry professionals to tear it down. If this is really the long con, they'd at least give a little time for the cheques to clear before their wild claims could be assessed?
The other possibility is that they have very little moat with this new battery tech, because it's so easy to manufacture. Being the first mover might be their only play, and it's only a matter of time before someone else figures it out (or it leaks).
https://www.youtube.com/@WillProwse
Well, maybe there's enough prototype production for motor cycles.
One Youtuber thinks this is a capacitor, not a battery. But that would require a dielectric orders of magnitude better than anything known.
Donut won't talk about either the chemistry or the manufacturing. The only thing they showed at CES was one pouch cell hooked up to a charger at 4.2V, drawing current. Everything else was a 3D printed mockup or an existing electric motorcycle.
[1] https://www.nordicnano.co/
https://x.com/VoltaWagen/status/2008620031450706132?s=20
https://x.com/VoltaWagen/status/2008620565704438239?s=20
https://x.com/VoltaWagen/status/2008617905362018630?s=20
https://x.com/VoltaWagen/status/2008625662480068957?s=20
But has anyone else had thoughts on how solid "solid state" batteries are?
IE could the frame of my next motorbike be made from solid state batteries?
Claiming that a technology is shipping imminently doesn't fit the normal definition of vapourware.
In the next moment some source of verification could appear, which is fine, then it wouldn't be vapourware. But as of commenting - as of the moment - this is the state of affairs.
If anything, this makes me more cynical that this is a marketing exercise on something that continues to be vapourware until independently verified.
If anyone wants to show/link to an independent verification, feel free!
Edit: Here we go (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28025969)
Dear battery technology claimant,
Thank you for your submission of proposed new revolutionary battery technology. Your new technology claims to be superior to existing lithium-ion technology and is just around the corner from taking over the world. Unfortunately your technology will likely fail, because:
[ ] it is impractical to manufacture at scale.
[ ] it will be too expensive for users.
[ ] it suffers from too few recharge cycles.
[ ] it is incapable of delivering current at sufficient levels.
[ ] it lacks thermal stability at low or high temperatures.
[ ] it lacks the energy density to make it sufficiently portable.
[ ] it has too short of a lifetime.
[ ] its charge rate is too slow.
[ ] its materials are too toxic.
[ ] it is too likely to catch fire or explode.
[ ] it is too minimal of a step forward for anybody to care.
[ ] this was already done 20 years ago and didn't work then.
[ ] by this time it ships li-ion advances will match it.
[ ] your claims are lies.
[x] it is impractical to manufacture at scale.
[?] it will be too expensive for users.
(Cost unknown, but it's part of a $35K motorcycle, which somewhat limits the possible range unless there's VC chum involved.)
[x] it suffers from too few recharge cycles.
[x] it is incapable of delivering current at sufficient levels.
(Motorcycle, again.)
[x] it lacks thermal stability at low or high temperatures.
[x] it lacks the energy density to make it sufficiently portable.
(400 Wh/kg is better than Li-Ion)
[x] it has too short of a lifetime.
[x] its charge rate is too slow.
[x] its materials are too toxic.
[x] it is too likely to catch fire or explode.
[x] it is too minimal of a step forward for anybody to care.
[x] this was already done 20 years ago and didn't work then.
[x] by this time it ships li-ion advances will match it.
(not directly addressed, but in combination with the rest, I'll give this a pass.)
[?] your claims are lies.
It kinda looks like they read through this exact list and addressed every item but the last. Where by "addressed", I mean simply that: they made a claim regarding the item.
100000 recharge cycles is "too few"?
Or are you using "x" to mean "this claim is rejected"? If so, on what grounds do you assert "[x] by this time it ships li-ion advances will match it"?
I am saying that the article addresses every reason for doubt that the checklist raises (save for the last, which it can't). Whether the technology actually addresses that shortcoming is another question, but the article does claim to have solved every single one of those common drawbacks.
As for the item about li-ion advances, I think the claimed capabilities are well beyond what li-ion could reasonably be expected to reach in the short remaining timeframe claimed.
tl;dr: the checklist is a cynical but normally accurate way of spotting fatal flaws in newly announced battery technology. Based on the announcement, this technology suffers from none of the flaws listed therein.
Please take a moment to read the guidelines and make an effort to observe them in future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
This is damn impressive. I suppose all the makers of military drones are lining up at the factory already. I mean, electric bikes are fine, but who has the most burning need to increase range and payload?..
Overall - their page sounds like a revolution in battery industry as they hit all the points - durability, capacity/weight, etc. It is like Mask should just close his GigaFactory. I mean, i would like such a revolutionary development as in particular it would mean we'll soon get personal VTOLs ...
I think until we have an independent lab verify the results, it's pretty much impossible to say if their (Donut Labs) claims are true or not. The only thing I'm particularly suspicious of is that they claim their battery was verified but didn't say by who or provide a whitepaper on it. Both of those seem to be the bare minimum for most battery manufacturers, and with their extraordinary claims I'd assume they'd have them front and center.
10 extra minutes may mean extra 5 kilometers of range, or of a patrol / recon route.
If the drone can fly 10 times it's probably good enough.
Ground teams usually have a bunch of batteries for quick replacement, because charging is slow. With these fast-charging batteries, they may need to lug fewer batteries, and larger generators.
We can switch the batteries before each flight every time, so batteries that are rated for 10 cycles would be good enough if they are cheaper and more energy-dense. Certainly batteries rated for 100 cycles would be more than enough.
Source (from March 2025): https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2025/04/16/hidden...
Clay-like design freedom
They're claiming this not only can fit custom geometries, but can be part of the structure itself. Would love to see what they're building this out of. I expect we'll see some people dissecting the verve cycle batteries soon enough.
> It can be produced in custom sizes, voltages, and geometries, enabling structural integration and non-traditional formats like serving as the body of a drone or a vehicle chassis.
Battery packs are part of the structure of basically all EVs. That’s not really something new or unique.
We've had "clay-like design freedom" since the early days of carbon-zinc batteries, but it turns out that it's far better (both for manufacturing, chemistry, and safety) to have a continuous volume of relative thermal and electrolytic quiescence that's, largely, isolated from physical strains.
That this is even being highlighted as a "feature" makes other claims even more dubious.
Suffice to say that any battery ("electrolytic cell") that's undergoing dynamic strains will have vastly different levels of conductivity (hence power output and contribution to thermal load) than one that is geometrically static.
Put another way, the performance gains from utilizing the motor as a "stressed member" (akin to F1 monocoque) in combustion vehicles was only possible circa 50+ years after the invention of the 4-stroke cycle. Talk to me in ~20 years.
FWIW, my degree is in electrical engineering and I worked on our college's solar car back when "solar car racing" was "a thing".
You do not want the stressed members of any structure being a crucial salient contributor to its power-train. Not related, see both mammalian, reptile, and insect physiologies.
Not a fast vehicle, but tough.
How about a steam engine with the front axle bolted to the boiler?
A steam boiler is subject to considerable stresses already and adding dynamic forces to the shell can't be a good idea?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Kemna_ro...
That's less frame than a Ducati has between the front and rear wheels.
Without speaking to the wisdom of stressing batteries mechanically, the idea of using drivetrain components as structural members of a vehicle is as old as self-propelled vehicles.
Hell, even a chariot sees the horse taking a part of the vehicle load.
You're correct on the chariot.
A monocoque incorporates ALL components as stressed members so even a classic Lotus Esprit would fail that strict definition given that both hood and trunk are free-floating cantilevers, but point taken.
I was responding to the more general statement:
>You do not want the stressed members of any structure being a salient contributor to its power-train. Not related, see mammalian, reptile, fish, and insect physiologies.
A steam traction engine is certainly at a different level to an F1 car, in both performance and engineering.
On the other hand, I think adding dynamic load to a steam boiler is riskier than doing so to an internal combustion engine.
1) China has gone all in on batteries. A competitor from Finland would be shocking. Scale is the real issue.
2) Luckily Finland hates Russia so this probably can't be used for Russian drones
Being able to scale out is far more important than the underlying tech ultimately. I'd expect that China would pretty quickly copy this if it proves out and would likely start outstripping them.
Saying this as a German, where the economy is the worst it’s been in decades and our federal government acts incapable at changing this so far.
Anyone who’s been to China, Israel or the US will be familiar with the pragmatism and, more importantly speed things happen in these places.
I do like Europes rules on civil liberty and privacy protections, but let’s not pretend the bureaucracy is on a unique scale across the board.
As a Swede I can add Saab(aeronautics, not the defunct car manufacturer), Scania, and IKEA to the list.
Far from a exhaustive list, but proof positive that manufacturing can in fact happen under European regulations.
That's not true. Germany has a 200-points plan on reducing the bureaucracy. At first it sounds like a joke, but actual points would be transformative if all points were done... They are going to be done, which is unlikely.
As an example, automatic approvals if a response is done within a deadline would be huge. I don't see that happening.
Or possibly happening, then there will be a scandal, and it will be rolled back. Or they can do it like we do.
Another funny trick is a "We are looking at it" response, or "The EIA doesn't use standardized language in ground water section, rework it" (EIA was made by company that specializes in that).
https://media.licdn.com/dms/image/D5622AQHRq_efww0ZsQ/feedsh...
regardless, batteries with 10% more wh/kg @ 500% the cost would be used for preciously few things, if any. after a few years of war, Russia had the presence of mind to revert to "quantity has a quality all its own" doctrine.
Higher capacity and faster charging doesn't have to actually mean more capacity and faster charging. It can mean smaller and lighter for the same capacity and charging speed. If you have a technology with 10x the energy density, you can build a car that goes 3000 miles on a charge, or you can build a car that goes 300 miles on a charge and has a battery only 10% the size/weight. (In practice a even a bit less than that, since the reduced size/weight will reduce how much energy you use per mile.)
There's a great market out there willing to buy B-movie space ships, but if EVs are going to be the default (and I think they are) they're going to have to get over the toys and start shipping cars.
It didn't save the Lightning from being canceled, but at least they pumped out a hundred thousand of them or so before turning tail and giving the market to GM.
The 2026 Leaf, which is based on the same platform, is pretty good in this regard too.
A manual transmission Mazda 3 has been my daily driver for the past fifteen years and I really wanted to like the Mazda CX90 when I was buying a larger vehicle last year. It was pretty difficult to justify the CX90 PHEV, though. It gets 42 km of range on an 18 kWh battery (2.4 km/kWh). For comparison, the EV9 I ended up purchasing gets 450 km of range on a 100 kWh battery (4.5 kw/kWh).
Don't get me wrong. The CX90 PHEV is still the most efficient CX90 by a wide margin. I seriously considered buying one, but the efficiency was a deal-breaker.
Now, prior to this, I lived in California for many years from 2011 until 2019, and I saw tons of EV charging stations there. I left with the impression of “wow, charging stations are everywhere”, and that was 7 years ago.
But now in my Midwest metro area, I can honestly say there are zero that I can think of within a 10 mile radius of my house. Not one. (They’re out there somewhere, but they gotta be tucked away because I never notice them enough to remember them.)
It’s no small wonder that all my friends from California drive electric cars, and all my friends from this area (near my childhood home, so I know lots of people) think EV owners are crazy. [0]
If EV charging stations were visibly everywhere and charged in 5 minutes I could say without a doubt that every one of them would be swayed. So I don’t think they’re being irrational at all.
- [0] It is common to go on long road trips here, since the weather sucks, and people really don’t want to rent a car to do it. Plus a ton of people tow shit. Half my friends have campers and the other half have boats.
ps: Just ordered two new dog collar lights cause the relatively new ones we had fully discharged while the mutts were outside. Now they wont charge. Jesus I hate LiOn.
cz 100k cycles is impressive
Seems like there's natural skepticism here (https://electrek.co/2026/01/05/verge-unveils-370-mile-electr...), but boy, if it works... Hopefully would be a bellwether for commercial solid-state truly emerging in the next few years.
Fingers crossed this is true.