Bikeshedding, or Why I Want to Build a Laptop
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Z means workstation
Book for notebook/laptop format, not desktop
Ultra is the line, like Pro in MacBook Pro
G1 is the first generation, that way you don't have to wonder
a for AMD
14 is the screen diagonal
Many outside of the US would consider that a con today.
Edit: Way too many issues on r/system76.
That’s an impressive, so to speak, level of consumerism, reminds me of a self-professed minimalist that made the rounds here years ago, he practiced detachment from worldly possessions by throwing away his clothes after use and buying new ones, instead of washing them
HN was so enamored with him when his deal was about hacking eating into being more productive by not having to chew
> I enjoy doing laundry about as much as doing dishes. I get my clothing custom made in China for prices you would not believe and have new ones regularly shipped to me. Shipping is a problem. I wish container ships had nuclear engines but it’s still much more efficient and convenient than retail. Thanks to synthetic fabrics it takes less water to make my clothes than it would to wash them, and I donate my used garments.
I'm sure i remember a few more details, like his claim that black t-shirts worn only once are the most stylish possible garment, but i'm willing to put that part down to the Berenstein Bears effect.
Vizio made a good laptop once and then they just existed the computer industry. They had a vision of high quality approachable laptops, desktops and pro platforms and their first gen was a good attempt, but they just didn’t follow on.
Since 2012 I've had 3 Macs, a 2012 Air, a 2020 M1 (this was a massive upgrade and the nicest laptop I ever used, even compared to my relatively new work thinkpad). I just cracked the screen on my M1 so bought a discounted M4 air on black friday. I can't tell the difference other than I like having magsafe back and only miss the touch bar slightly.
The tablet itself has been good. The firmware support is good. The charger died, and the keyboard case is on its last legs. I had to solder the pins back on to keep it working. It's an acceptable keyboard case, but the 'a' key doesn't work super well. Still a decent product, particularly for a Linux convertable, but definitely not something I would give my dad.
TL;DR: Waited for a decade for somebody to make a non-shitty notebook, went for macbook as the least bad option when the old one was falling apart.
Also the modern thinkpad keyboards are crap, and the trackpoint is unusable in the low profile style.
I switched to a macbook pro last year after having some contact with apple hardware in a customer project, from a thinkpad x230 with a x220 keyboard I've kept barely alive over the years. Now _some_ non-Apple notebooks (mostly from framework) can take sensible amount of memory, but at the time of purchase that was the only 14" notebook capable of taking a decent amount of RAM. The only other ones that could take RAM were some xeon workstation type builds - big display, shitty battery runtime, and same or more expensive than a fully specced out macbook.
Apple also seems to have put some effort into keyboards - with the current macbook pro keyboard being one of the best notebook keyboards currently out there. Not as good as the classic thinkpad keyboards, but better than anything lenovo made in over a decade. Dell never was that great, and did a massive step back in their latest model. HP is somewhat close, but still noticeable difference.
(like these: https://support.apple.com/en-us/102482 )
More info: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Libinput#Gestures
True. I think that's mostly because they model themselves after Apple products. I find Apple's hardware utterly undesirable, tho. The only product of theirs I ever showed any interest in was their Newton line of handhelds; my dream machine is quite far removed from the stuff's that's mentioned in the OP's article, let alone anything that maps to Apple's portfolio (and even more importantly, product philosophy).
Asahi would have 100x more adoption if it was about better virtualization of Linux on macOS. It would be a DIFFERENT product and I guess that’s the point, right?
High performance GPU for VMs, for starters. And the amount of crap that even a bare-bones macOS needs to load (and that consequently hog resources like RAM and CPU time) is a goddamn joke.
[0] https://discussions.apple.com/thread/253315335?sortBy=rank
I now have a Z13 Gen 1 (AMD 6850U) running Fedora and the battery life is passable. It draws 7-8W at idle from a 51 Wh battery.
My laptop can go on for days as well as long as I plug it in to a power bank. I just need to lug them around, defeating the purpose.
Then there’s the stupid BIOS warning that requires you to press ESC for the computer to boot if it’s not plugged in to the official charger, which means that if it ever reboots at night it’ll just keep you awake (because the power management hasn’t been initialized yet so it’s stuck at 100% CPU) until you go press ESC.
Oh and it thermal throttles all the time so the CPU performance is good for a few minutes and then it’s just awful.
From what I remember the last time I bought a laptop, they also have a really annoying pricing model where everything is 30% overpriced but are running constant discounts
Everything non-Apple is. Apple's trackpad are great and have been for decades. I’ve done professional image editing on the go even with the tiny by today’s standards PowerBook G4s trackpads.
The real tragedy of our industry is that Apple got the basics right a few decades ago but seems determined to make their OS worse for pro user with every release. Yet no one else seems competent or willing to take on the challenge.
What I'd want in a hack laptop is a full size TKL keyboard (and full height, or close), with a trackpoint (or 2 -- add one near the arrow keys).
Compared to the thinkpad trackpad, it is light-years ahead. It is also more robust - functions with a little bit of dirt/oil/dirt/water. Get some oil on the thinkpad trackpad and you need to spend 10 mins wiping it away for it work without driving you nuts.
Even hardcore thinkpad fans have grudgingly admitted to the superiority of the Macbook trackpad
Same for me, Apple included; trackpads are just a huge waste of space to me. Have to say that my hand-eye coordination is way above that of the average computer user, and my workflows involving complementary HIDs always focused on trackballs, digtizer pens, as well as gamepads/game controllers for other, non-game related stuff.
I also don't get why people still chase outdated form factors (laptops) by preference as opposed to market realities...
Yes, that's the gist of it. Classic laptops gave way to an acceptable interstage, the T-hinge convertible (with many great examples especially from IBM/Lenovo, HP, and Fujitsu), which was then superseded by the best of both worlds: the detachable. The latter chassis design, taken to its logical conclusion, is the best form factor for a modular, ultramobile to mobile general-purpose computing platform, i. e. it can technically be implemented as anything between a UMPC (i. e. a smartphone-sized and -styled slab) to something with a footprint of maximally 14 inches (example: HP's discontinued ZBook X2 G4 mobile workstation). Anything bigger I consider an antithesis to the form factor and therefore would not buy it, but that's obviously in the eye of any beholder.
One possible unrealistic "dream" design for me is, as weird as it sounds, a cross between a Nintendo Switch/Lenovo Legion Go (complete with detachable controller options!) and an improved Panasonic Toughbook G2, reworked as a professional-grade, maintenance-friendly mobile workstation (or a scaled-down, more maintenance-friendly and otherwise improved HP ZBook X2 G4 with ECC memory).
> "What 'market realities' are you noticing?"
Well, the above mentioned design is unrealistic as it would amount to an expensive general-purpose machine that needs a long-term support infrastructure. Not many companies on the market that are in a position to deliver on that promise for at least three continental zones (say, the Americas, the Eurozone and major parts of Asia). Or willing to do so.
Furthermore, the comment was a reflection on what is available on the market for the foreseeable future. I'm eyeing such a small mobile workstation for a) 2D graphics work and b) analysis of historical and archival data. I am even willing to put up with a classic laptop if I could get an ECC-equipped model. But none of these machines are mobile, they're all 16-inch+ brutes. No thanks.
So I have to look for other machines. ECC-machine? Fuck, most likely some mini-PC in addition to something mobile without ECC memory. Keeping that in mind, what are the options that come closest to the above ideal? Essentially only overspecialized, maintenance-averse gaming machines with pathetic battery life and a support quality somewhere between questionable and utterly inacceptable (Lenovo consumer division, OneXPlayer, Asus).
A Panasonic Toughbook G2 10-incher could be an acceptable alternative, but I'm not gonna fork over Panasonic-money for a non-ECC ruggedized machine without a DCI-P3 screen and a digitizer that's even worse than an Apple Pencil (I think they use either Microsoft's Pen Protocol or Wacom's AES tech).
Everything else is locked-down garbage with some sort of Fisher-Price OS, e. g. everything Apple, Samsung's Galaxy Tab Active5 Pro, etc.
[0]: https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices
Traditional laptops have their place, but I think most people would be better served by other form factors.
For instance a good amount of people use their laptops basically like a desktop and dock it to an external screen 90% of the time. For that specific use case, a tablet form factor will have better thermals, and lend itself better to have a separate and better keyboard and pointing device. The other 10% will still be a decent experience with either the detachable keyboard or straight bringing along an external keyboard if the work sequences are exepected to be long enough.
People more on the go but needing a powerful setup when needed now have access to devices that can expand the screen real estate beyond the 15" traditional limitation. Lenovo has been pushing the enveloppe on that front, and the build quality isn't bad either.
Gaming laptops are better served by Steam Deck/ROG Ally type of form factors etc.
The market is decently diversified and the form factors I'm describing are as far as I know selling better numbers than people clinging to Thinkpads and macbooks would expect.
For me it’s because my workflow is keyboard driven and I fine touchscreens annoying.
On the laptops I’ve had I generally disable touchscreen because I have no use for it and it gets in the way.
I want a good screen, a decent keyboard and a good trackpad. That’s it.
The reality that a certain crowd, I count myself among them, has to/or might have to choose laptops because machines in their preferred form factor either a) implement too many inacceptable but technically entirely avoidable compromises, or b) don't exist at all. That market reality. Like, when you have to settle for a laptop.
That thing is my platonic ideal of a laptop
"16 core Zen 5 CPU, 40 core RDNA 3.5 GPU. 64GB of LPDDR5X RAM @ 256 GB/s + stunning OLED" - Easily done as a pc build.
In a world where you can get this laptop with Linux, there's a new set of trade-offs -
- be prepared for a LOT of things not working because the size of the market for extremely expensive configurations with high end CPU + GPU + RAM + Monitor + Linux is practically zero.
- when closing the lid and walking to the coffee shop will the battery be dead before you finish your coffee? probably
- will a new GPU/GPU architecture be a headache for the first X years...yes, and if you want to replace every 2 years, I guess you will have a permanent headache.
- will updating graphics drivers be a problem? yes
- is the text in your "stunning oled" going to be rendered correctly in linux? probably not
- will the wifi chip work in linux? maybe
- will all the ports work/behave? probably not
- will your machine perform worse than a high end PC that cost 1/2 as much from 3 years ago... yes.
In a desktop, you would need a top of the line threadripper for that 256GB/s of memory bandwidth.
Consumer grade Zen 5 desktops reach only about 80GB/s in real world testing, with a theoretical max of slightly over 100GB/s.
Why probably? Going to sleep on lid close is common enough, it's even the default in all OSes/DEs. If you turn off sleep-on-close and drain the battery, that's on you.
> - is the text in your "stunning oled" going to be rendered correctly in linux? probably not
> - will the wifi chip work in linux? maybe
> - will all the ports work/behave? probably not
These seem like odd things to doubt, when Framework has a perfectly working system for Linux and has been doing it for years. No hardware in their systems is unsupported in Linux.
Notably the critique of Framework in the original blog post does not offer these doubts. They are focused instead on the hardware design and tradeoffs between upgradability and uniform bodies. Those are real tradeoffs and Framework cannot solve them all without abandoning the upgradability part.
Framework were explicitly ruled out, so: Integrated Oled - you really want some integration, If you can't set the brightness, goodbye lifespan, oled also have many different subpixel layouts which can make the text blurry/fringe, maybe you wont notice but then why buy an oled in the first place for work? While a monitor will definitely have pixel shift/burn in protection built in, if integrating a panel into the laptop without putting in any work, that support might not come out of the box
Even if it was a framework, everything is distro specific, but I think you only need to know that a "dock megathread" exists to realise that "perfectly working" is a stretch and a lot of people have hardware they can't connect and doesn't work.
That said if I was to buy a laptop - a mid end framework I just do the basics with would probably be great.
But yeah seems like a game adjacent market... Which might be fine but isn't there MO.
You’ll lose 90,000 of your 100,000 with one or more little nitpicks.
Probably 50% right off the bat because you chose a keyboard with or without a numpad.
Another huge chunk because you chose the wrong screen (Retina resolution? Low resolution? Refresh rate?)
Too bad, because I want this. Or at least the version of it I have in my head :)
As a counter example - look at macbooks which are about as un-customisable as they come, but a large portion of developers use them. Meaning the market exists even if it's currently dominated by Apple (which as you/the post points out is slipping)
Having said that I do believe that many brands have way too mamy SKU and I widh they would be more opinionated on what they believe is better for their customers while maintaining clear and strong ethics (reliability should be #priority)
Oh man I feel this every time there’s a games console launch. I still have no idea what the latest Xbox is called but Sony gets it right with “Playstation <N>”
Apple loses some points here since every macbook from like 2007 until 2020 was just called “Macbook pro” with no year officially in the name so you have to be really careful when eg looking at used listings for macbooks. But since the M1 it’s been good with M<1-5>
And then you have the various drive options, 500GB, 1TB, 2TB, game bundles, day one edition. We are talking about dozens of variants.
Once Steve Jobs returned, he replaced the product numbering scheme with a quadrant: consumer desktop (iMac), consumer laptop (iBook), high-end desktop (Power Mac), and high-end laptop (PowerBook). The high-end models had a suffix (G3, G4, G5), but it got confusing with all the variants (e.g., Wallsteeet vs Lombard vs Pismo PowerBook G3, various revisions of Titanium and Aluminum PowerBook G4, etc.)
Nokia model numbers (and "series" numbers, too) in the 00s were far worse.
Microsoft jumped from .NET Core 3 to .Net (Core) 5 to avoid people conflating .NET Core 4 with .NET Framework 4.
Now tech adjacent people in my world, including people from Microsoft, think .NET Core 8 and .NET Framrwork 4.8 refer to the same version.
Luckily that problem will go away as we do our now biannual ritual of upgrading .NET versions, frustratingly.
For example, see Mandy Mantiquila interview with Nick Chapsas, if I remember correctly it is one of them.
and that's AFTER they changed the names of Personal and Work. Before that, you'd have Microsoft Teams and Microsoft Teams. One was purple with a white T and the other was white with a purple T.
If you tried to login with the personal version, it would error-out but not give any indication you may be using the wrong version. Let's be real. NO ONE is using Teams in their personal life. /rant
They're just infuriating on every level when it comes to naming things.
/s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUXnJraKM3k
It's something that has always bothered me in reviews as well. To me a product is primarily supposed to be used, and I also don't want to buy a new one every 6 months.
For instance I like my headphones very much, been using them for 4 years now. I did a ton of research and read a bunch of reviews before buying them, and to keep the exact and unique product name somewhere for research, but from the point they were delivered to me whatever they're named has been completely irrelevant. Same for my computer or phone, I could check the marketing name, and there is skew number somewhere on the product, but in my everyday life it's completely useless.
I'd argue having a impossible to remember but perfectly unique and SEO friendly names wins over using common names like Apple does, for my purposes at least.
Right now there's about 5 lines of Surface devices with each their very specific purpose and tradeoffs. I'd be shocked at someone buying one solely based on the how the name sounds or what they assume it means without looking at the actual product pages.
You're comparing model to generation, not sure what's that supposed to mean.
Yes, I will buy Peugeot 208 over 207 because it is obviously newer. And the point isn't that I'm buying solely because of a number, the point is that it is much more intuitive to have simple naming over "jerk my co, pilot, ai".
If you can accepts different schemes depending on the maker's intent, I really don't get why you're distressed by XBox naming different console lines with different monikers. I guess it all comes down to whether you like the name or not, and there was nothing to argue on from the very start.
> Yes, I will buy Peugeot 208 over 207 because it is obviously newer
That's a disturbing logic to me, but you do you.
Buying 2025 model over 2014 is truly disturbing.
Edit: When you're saying the 207 is from 2014, you're already doing your research past looking at the number. I'm not even sure what we're still discussing.
And what if it's still sold but at a third of the price ? "it's newer" is the main decision factor when it's throwaway money. Otherwise you're thinking a bit longer about what to buy for 17k euros.
Not so easy: even for old PlaysStations, there existed different versions:
1. PlayStation, PSOne, PlayStation Classic
2. PlayStation 2, PlayStation 2 Slim
3. PlayStation 3, PlayStation 3 Slim, PlayStation 3 Super-Slim
4. PlayStation 4, PlayStation 4 Slim, PlayStation 4 Pro
5. PlayStation 5, PlayStation 5 Digital Edition, PlayStation 5 Slim, PlayStation 5 Digital Edition Slim, PlayStation 5 Pro
And then Sony used the PlayStation branding for other consoles, too:
- PlayStation Portable
- PlayStation Vita
- PlayStation Portal
- PlayStation TV (which is also called PlayStation Vita TV)
Dell is messing this up badly even though they almost got the strategy, "Dell Pro 14 Premium" is a real product and "Dell Pro Max 14 Plus" is also a real product, there's no way anyone knows what that means.
if I ask you to choose between xbox 360, xbox one and xbox series s which one is the latest?
and then if I ask you to choose between ps2, 3, 4 and 5 which one is the latest?
what do you think are your chances to get it right for xbox?
HP is like they assigned good people to the right task, had everyone make a draft, pulled it from their hands and declared it finished. The combined drafts do not resemble a product so they also have someone make a draft solution for that problem.
As for the PC ecosystem, there are no good x86 cpus with good power effciciency. Maybe geohot would like https://metacomputing.io/products/metacomputing-arm-aipc ? Framework 13 does not have his specific touchpad complaint
It was a bit disappointing to see the cold shower not reach the thermals situation however, despite the heavy emphasis on performant parts. Apple's offerings are phone-like, they let them saturate then throttle. The alternative is the ugly gamer laptops with their jet engines. Not sure I can wholeheartedly prefer either.