A Closer Look at a Bgp Anomaly in Venezuela
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A recent BGP anomaly in Venezuela has sparked a lively debate about the global implications of US-based tech infrastructure, with Cloudflare's in-depth analysis shedding light on the incident. As commenters weighed in, some expressed concerns that Cloudflare's extensive coverage is a double-edged sword, with some calling for non-US companies to migrate away from US-based services. The discussion quickly took a geopolitical turn, with some commenters labeling the US as an "enemy" to the EU, prompting others to counter with accusations of hyperbole and pointing out the complexities of EU-US relations. Amidst the debate, a few voices offered a more nuanced perspective, highlighting the technical aspects of anycast networks and the pioneering work of companies like Akamai.
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At this this, US is basically enemy to EU. Good for us, we will be less dependent on US global oil police.
I hope EU companies will stop manufacturing US airplanes and other things.
And yet, here you are...
In current times, encrypted accesses to Usenet and IRC via I2P and the like will boost the platforms more than ever. Why? IRC and Usenet are dead simple, Emacs has ports to everything and among being a Lisp env, an editor and a minimal web browser, it's an IRC and Usenet client too even under Android. Oh, and you can set I2P under Android too. Thus, you just have to set Emacs.
Difficult? A Chinese Bluetooth keyboard it's worth very little today, and the gains are enormous. You can chat with people with really small bandwidths but encrypted either with TLS or I2P. You don't have blocks (except bans under IRC), comment limits, enforced timelines and any enshittification coming from social networks. Also, you can short Usenet threads by score. That's it, it's there a brilliant poster and comp.misc, you set the score for all his comment to 1000; then that random Joe will always be on top in any group. Try that with X/Twitter, Reddit or whatever.
I'm pretty sure you know what the parent poster meant, and you should take it as a compliment to you and our HN community that they didn't intend you, or us, to be included in that definition of 'anything US-based'.
Stirring the pot like that isn't helpful to you, to HN itself, or any of our community.
It's right for all of us to consider whether our online presence supports fascist dictators be they from USA, Russia, Venezuela, or wherever.
Thanks for the reminder that even here people are sometimes shit, I guess.
> I hope EU companies will stop manufacturing US airplanes and other things.
Independent of how little we may like current US politics: a) it will probably change, more sooner than later. And b) starting a trade war with the US is not very good idea. We like it or not, there are many things that we need desperately to be able to produce. Starting with computers and SW. And please don't start with "OOS SW" as much as I like the idea, and I constantly advocate for it, even if we start yesterday, it will take decades to build everything again.
Sure.
Though I think the EU is thinking that blowing up critical energy pipelines and seriously damaging Europes economy through the resulting much higher energy prices wasn't too friendly.
All to boost US energy exports, make US manufacturing more competitive and met US geopolitical goals.
ie that's not declaring war - but's it's a pretty big FU wake up call. Turning a blind eye when the US treats central and south american countries with contempt is one thing, but it's a bit of a shock when it openly does the same to you - cf Greenland as another example.
Although if you ask "cui bono?" there are some pointers in that direction, is not proven, and there are also pointers in other directions. I refrain of accusing without reasonable proof.
>All to boost US energy exports, make US manufacturing more competitive and met US geopolitical goals.
I cannot blame them for that. Of course anything they do is in their benefit. Some may argue, is precisely what the government should do. It is clear, that while the action in Venezuela was against a very shady government, was done thinking in US interests (as can be clearly seen by titles as "Trump Says Venezuela Will Buy Only US-Made Products From Oil Deal Proceeds").
So yes, they do all in own interest, and the EU isn't and wasn't very different. Alone if you consider the long colonialism years. Now the EU is acting poorly, but I would say not out of altruism, but incompetence and bureaucratic stagnation.
I will not say "is impossible" they do the same in Greenland... For good reason I think. BUT comparing the 2 is also farfetched. I know plenty of people from Venezuela, and unless you were part of the government, you were strongly against it. I know no venezuelan (from the at least 100 I know) that wanted Maduro there. And many are still in party modus. Granted, I know primarily expats, so, survivor bias may apply... but still.
Exactly - the views of people who have left Cuba, Venezuelan, or Iran are typically not representative - by definition they chose or were forced to leave.
Indeed if they have left - why are their views informing armed intervention - should Italian American's force political change through American might in Italy over the people that still live in Italy?
It's all just performative - bottom line Trump doesn't care about good governance and democratic in Venezuela - indeed he has just come out against fresh elections - all he cares about is the flow of money and resources.
But this isn't something unique to Trump - just look at the history if US meddling in central and south america. Democracy and the will of the people ( whatever that is ) isn't the driving factor.
BTW totally accept Europe has a very similar past, and to some extent present - and you could argue that the fact that the EU is less involved in this sort of thing these days is a question of capacity rather than desire.
However that's rather my point - in a globalised world - the differences in power will equalise meaning whether countries like it or not just going around doing what you want is going to no longer be an option - and it's better to gracefully accept that and adjust rather than rage against the dying of the light and inviting in the four horsemen.
Again, that is not speaking well of the acting government. Is just not normal that so much people choose or even worst are forced to leave. That just does not speak well of that regime. Does it? So dismissing their opinions does not seem to be a useful reasoning. I know from friends of mine in many different places in Latin America (mind you, in both "left" (brasil/MX) and "right" (Arg/ Chile) countries) that there are literally thousands of venezuelans in exile. That is not normal and is not a good sign.
> bottom line Trump doesn't care about good governance and democratic in Venezuela
Totally agree. But as I said, is not "Trump". Is not a person, is institutional. Which you could reasonably argue is much worse. But OTOH, there are many people again, does not matter if they went or stay... many people from that very country that are very happy with the intervention...
My way of seeing it is: we have to wait to be able to weight the prons and cons. WWII + Plan marshal was basically the same, wasn't it? And I'm pretty happy with the results and how everything played out...
Being forced to leave in itself is not a bad sign - do people not flee the US to Mexico to avoid justice? Perhaps they were part of an old corrupt cabal running the country for their own benefit?
Or perhaps they had to leave because of dire economic circumstances largely caused by foreign sanctions rather than internal mismanagement?
Let's be clear I'm not a fan of the current governments in the countries I've listed, but then I'm not a fan of Trump either. In neither case does it justify military invention - I'm not advocating abducting Trump to free the America people from a leader who sends troops on to the streets in cities of his political opponents.... and openly ignores the constitution.
> But OTOH, there are many people again, does not matter if they went or stay... many people from that very country that are very happy with the intervention...
The whole point of democracy is you don't have people like you and me making arbitrary choices from afar based on hearsay - and if there isn't democracy - in my view it's still a democratic choice to decide whether the cost of a rebellion is worth the price. Outside countries shouldn't be making that choice for other people ( We decided that your son dying is a price worth paying for a change in political system ).
Note that doesn't mean you should stand for your values and be assertive - and driving very hard to ensure no military inbalances. However that's a long way from self-interested coups under pre-texts.
> WWII + Plan marshal was basically the same, wasn't it? And I'm pretty happy with the results and how everything played out...
Not sure it was that great - one of the results of WWII was a massive expansion of the soviet empire for example, and you could argue that the resulting settlements also led to decades of instability in the Balkans, Africa and the middle east - where wars are still being fought today as a result of the rather arbitrary carving up of the world post WWII.
Note in 1939 we didn't have much choice - WWII at that point was inevitable - the question is could policies in the decades before have avoided getting to that point - not whether the 1939 ( or 1941 in the US case ) decision was correct or not.
Of course, what connects Europe and the USA forever is that they think the same in these matters. No one can trust them.
Is it, given this kind of talk from POTUS preceding the more recent threats?
> Let's be honest, the European Union was formed in order to screw the United States. That's the purpose of it, and they've done a good job of it.
And https://www.politico.eu/article/donald-trump-putin-russia-eu...
It looks mutual between EU citizens and Trump.
https://www.politico.eu/article/half-europeans-see-donald-tr...
You know the US is explicitly threatening with military action on Greenland, which is part of Denmark, which is in NATO, just like the US?
The US's international appeal (especially for EU countries) is crumbling by the day.
USA and enemy to EU because of Venezuela? LMAO, EU has said nothing. In fact we agree. We have no relations to Venezuela. Now if the USA attacks Greenland, that is different.
Also, only reacting to US aggression after Greenland is attacked? Not prepare at all and then write a strongly worded letter after the fact?
If, after everything Trump has done, you still think he isn't serious about annexing Greenland then you and people like you, including the eurocrats, are truly hopeless.
I suspect most countries would prefer a multi-polar world where the majority is dominant ( democratic ), not one particular country ( autocratic ).
ie why do we have to choose to be under the heel of the US or under the heel of China?
The US has been playing the benevolent dictator role for the last 70 years, but when faced with losing the dictator role, the benevolent facade is dropping.
The US is mistaken to think that countries not wanting US dominance is the same as wanting Chinese dominance - they, in fact, want neither.
This seems to come from the US obsession with hegemony as the only strategy ( without realising that only works for 1 out of 200 countries ) - everything is framed as a US/China tussle for top dog.
Note this isn't a purely a Trumpian thing - he is just being more open/less subtle about it.
The US has to realise that it's days of global dominance are coming to and end - just as the UK had to ~100 years ago. What I hope is this time we won't have a couple of world wars during the transition to a multi-polar world.
I'd argue that leaders in South/Central America were under no illusions of how the US operated - the fact that Trump does so openly doesn't really change that. The 'great game' goes on.
What's changed is the wider public perception - both home and abroad. The question is will that create political pressure for a change.
For example, the new openess of the US-Israeli agenda in Gaza and the West Bank and elsewhere appears to have really shifted the political landscape domestically in the US in terms of unconditional support for Israel. The US self image is potentially shifting - this could have much bigger domestic implications.
Likewise aboard, while the current US hostility to China is not a suprise to the leadership in China - it's a continuation. The view of the US in the general population in China will be shifting, which will potentially create political change in the response.
Now I'm not sure Trump understands he is potentially squandering that soft power, because he lives a bubble which applauds the strongman messaging - and let's face it - he has won 2 elections on the back of it.
That for me here is the real risk - people shifting from thinking they were the good guys ( even if that was not entirely true ) to accepting they are out for themselves - and how that then effects both domestic and foreign policy over time - will US society fragment with people being ever more isolated domestically and as a country abroad?
EU, Germany especially Loves Russian oil.
So congrats?
Other CDN companies can do it too, it's just that they don't work on signalling their engineering focused organization.
Until their systems block you for no reason. I recently had a similar issue on a work related site. Fortunately, I was able to reach to the administrator (which is on another country) and had the knowledge to write a report which was useful enough for the said administrator.
And this is for a system which has the same static IP which is not shared with anything for 10ish years.
Found out that I was blocked from it in my default setup. Firefox with default settings, and no VPN.
I'm working hard to turn Cloudflare off.
Cloudflare is not remotely awsome. It's also a solution to a problem (aggressive scrapers that produce DOS) which is worse.
New traffic isn't humans. I blocked some AI scraper user-agents, which helped, a bit. But most new user agents are identifying as vanilla browsers, not scrapers.
I don't have numbers. It was enough to consume all nginx worker_connections. Raising the number doesn't help, as it's just reverse proxying to JVM.
After the switch, Cloudflare showed USA and Singapore as heavy traffic sources.
I don't mind scrapers on the site, but app is a search engine (of sorts) so every page view consumes some CPU. Including 'facet this search' buttons. My (WIP) solution is to rewrite to make it all client-side and put it all on a CDN.
This is how they get you, alongside with "residential proxy" services they use. They appear to be benign browsers from various homes.
Systems get infected, and new "residential proxies" get made of unsuspecting internet subscribers all the time.
https://www.ripe.net/analyse/internet-measurements/routing-i...
This could be a classic fat finger config error, most likely a route map intended to manipulate traffic engineering for their own upstream links that inadvertently leaked widely because of a missing deny-all clause. Neverthless, a good reminder that BGP is still fundamentally a trust based system where a single typo in a config file can cascade globally. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by a missing export filter.
That's presumptuous: A state actor would (and could trivially) pad the wrong directions to flow traffic down to pops that are not making new announcements (and thus not-implicated by cloudflare and other "journalistic" efforts).
There's also a lot between fat-fingers and deep-state: I know of some non-state actors who do this sort of thing just to fuck with ad impressions. I also doubt much usable intelligence can be gained from mere route-manipulation thing, but I do know that if it is a fat-finger, every techdude in the area was busy at that time trying to figure it out, and wasn't doing their best work twelve hours later...
> most likely a route map intended to manipulate traffic engineering for their own upstream links
...that being said, this does seem plausible: Most smaller multihomed sites I've seen (and a few big ones!) have some kind of adhoc health monitoring/rebalance function that snmp or something and does autoexpect/curl or something-else to the router to run some (probably broken) script, because even if your uplinks are symmetrical, the rest of the Internet isn't, so route-stuffing remains the best way to manipulate ingress traffic.
> Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by a missing export filter.
As soon as I peer with two big sites that don't peer directly with each-other, they both gotta let me forward announcements unfiltered across them. Once I have a third, I have a legitimate need to manipulate my own ingress.
The problems with the BGP are legion, and not just one thing that prevents BGP and security from sharing time in a sentence.
This isn't how BGP works. An AS-PATH isn't the path the traffic will follow; it's the path that this overall announcement has allegedly tranversed and is (one of many attributes) used to judge the quality of route. The next hop tells our peer where they should send the data if they like this route.
Putting more things in the AS path makes the route less attractive. Leaking a new route isn't going to magically make some other route become more preferred.
This is exactly how BGP works.
https://bgplabs.net/policy/7-prepend/
> Leaking a new route isn't going to magically make some other route become more preferred.
Not magic, but technology can look like magic when you don't understand it.
> Not magic, but technology can look like magic when you don't understand it.
Please let me know of the scenario where route A is preferred, undesirable, long-path route B is advertised/leaked, and as a result traffic flows over route C.
I've used BGP for over 25 years, so I'm really curious what you're thinking. Or if you're describing something else, you're being really unclear.
> ... I'm really curious what you're thinking
That the actor actually wanted the traffic to flow over route C.
> You know what's really toxic? Not explaining what you mean and just sending some introductory lab documentation about what the other person has already clearly shown they understand.
I think perhaps you and I have different ideas of what is "clear", for example when you said something that is totally covered in introductory lab documentation, I thought it was clear that you did not understand.
> I don't even know what you mean by a lot of these things
That is clear! But confusing! How can you clearly understand but not know what I mean?
> Peering means to give your own routes (and your transit customers' routes) to someone else.
That's exactly what's happening here: Not every transit customer peers with every other transit customer.
Yes, but how does advertising undesirable route B make traffic go over route C? This is why I think you're confused.
> That's exactly what's happening here: Not every transit customer peers with every other transit customer.
I am not understanding what you're saying at all. You said:
> > > > As soon as I peer with two big sites that don't peer directly with each-other, they both gotta let me forward announcements unfiltered across them.
This is the thing you are supposed to never do as a peer, and the thing that I have a whole bunch of filtering to prevent my peers from inadvertently doing.
Are you misusing the word "peer"? It's hard to talk about BGP and routing policy without using these words correctly.
I think I'm going to give up here.
I think you're confused.
> I am not understanding what you're saying at all.
And that is why; You seem to have a very strong opinion about something that you don't understand "at all" and frankly I cannot understand how that can work.
> This is the thing you are supposed to never do as a peer
So you say, but that's what I did when back in the early 2000s, and that's what the parties in the news were doing, and if you're not totally lying to me, you know this because it's the default in BGP, that's why you would say you need to:
> I have a whole bunch of filtering to prevent my peers from inadvertently doing.
because that's how BGP works. Duh.
> It's hard to talk about BGP without using these words correctly.
and I am flabbergasted you continue to persist at it, when I have even offered you "introductory lab documentation" to help.
Transit means "give our entire table, receive their routes plus their downstream customers routes".
You don't give one peer's routes to another. You filter to make sure you are not doing this. They hopefully filter (using data from RIRs) to make sure you're not doing it. If both parties screw up the filtering, you "leak routes" like we're discussing here.
This has been standard practice for peering since at least 1997. It is codified, among other places, in RFC7454.
> And that is why; You seem to have a very strong opinion about something that you don't understand "at all" and frankly I cannot understand how that can work.
Do you operate an AS? Are you a peering contact? I mean, I only do it mostly for funsies now but for quite awhile that was part of my job. :P
Also, still seeking an answer to this question:
> > > Yes, but how does advertising undesirable route B make traffic go over route C [that previously went over route A]? This is why I think you're confused.
> I mean, I only do it mostly for funsies now but for quite awhile that was part of my job. :P
I'm retired now. I wrote some about my experiences on HN a long time ago:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18535518
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2727993
I set up multihoming in the US (going through ARIN assignment for ASN and PI) in the early 2000s and for another larger company in the UK (doing the same same but different) in the early 2010s.
> Also, still seeking an answer to this question:
Not sure what to tell you. I've answered this within the context of the news article, if you're asking specifically what kinds of configurations do that they're the kinds that are in that "introductory lab documentation" and if you're not overstating your credentials you should be able to understand.
Not saying that this is the case with Venezuela, just explaining the reality of BGP where path prepends are often ignored.
It's possible he's saying something else, but I can't figure out, and he hasn't clarified.
Does anyone have data on what the general frequency of these leaks is likely to be across the network?
US SIGINT agencies? They’d just pwn the routers they are interested in. And almost certainly they’ve already done it. Like 10+ years ago.
BGP hijacks are really low-tech and trivial to detect. And competent intelligence agencies don’t do either, unless it comes with enough plausible deniability that it would even be insane to suggest foul play.
I operate a small BGP hobbynet under 2 different AS numbers, and even I keep logs about path changes. Not for any practical purpose, just sheer curiosity.
BGP is a globally distributed and decentralized system. The messages (announcements) propogate virtually across the entire internet. If someone hijacked a route to a prefix that I’ve received, and the path I’ve received is the hijacked one, I’d get that information.
So yes, if that happened, I’d totally expect CloudFlare to publish it, unless they got a NSL. Which they most probably wouldn’t get, as NOTHING about the event would be secret—-it would be out in the open for everyone to see the instant it would happen. There are also tools like https://bgp.tools which operate public route collectors, with the data being publicly available. RIPE has one too.
https://observatory.manrs.org/#/overview
And Cloud flare has some publicly available reporting in radar
https://radar.cloudflare.com/routing
I know this has always been the case, of course, but now I have lost trust. Whatever the reasons of this "leak" were, I am not accepting any information written in this message (search for the link to another coverage of the incident in the comments).
It is quite weird and quite logical at the same time: this is the end of an era.
Okay and you would rather have... china? (Huwaei) or EU (Ericsson, Nokia, Alcatel)
Like pick a solution.
Complaining is easy.
I am EU btw and would pick USA over China. There.
Not sure why people need to chose between the US or China, and especially why you started thinking about this when someone seems to just want to share their feeling that they've lost their trust in their government. So what if they trust China more/less, what is that supposed to mean with their relationship with US government? Suddenly they shouldn't actually have a lost it, because some people prefer US over China?
I just don't understand this train of thought, and how it's even relevant here.
?? I interfered it as someone outside the USA.
Why? Because I hear that sentiment a lot here. USA bad. Okay, now what. They are the most important trade and resource partner.
oh no the feelings
Do something.
Solve something.
Realpolitik.
I then find myself speculating (probably wrongly) about the intentions behind writing such an article. This has raised doubts and left me with an uncomfortable feeling, as if I were drifting toward conspiracy-theory thinking. All of this stems from reading that article.
Still, it would make sense to disrupt communications (and collect large amounts of data) prior to invading a country. Ultimately, for me, the core issue is the illegality of such actions when they are carried out by the most influential and powerful country in the world: a country that, increasingly, no one can fully trust anymore.
I am sorry for letting my emotions flow like that. It may not be the adequate spot to do so, but let me be clear: this Cloudflare article smells badly.
If the US government had enough access to try to intentionally do this, they had enough access to snoop on traffic with methods that would not be visible to the outside world, and they would work more reliably than these BGP shenanigans. So I’d suggest you are right about the lack of trust, even if this particular event is probably not supporting evidence. I’d also agree with other posters that any such trust was misplaced in the first place.
They're going to soon find out their stash of dollars is toilet paper, but that won't make too much of a difference with such an advanced economy of their own - the USA will surely have yuan reserves in 30 years.
it's too easy to assassinate world leaders for a state sponsored government so you have to beg the question: why has nobody done it? the relative peace we have is built on top of mutual destruction and realistically US won't fall without taking most of the world with it.
the reason I believe it's easy because US SS seemingly lost their edge as there haven't been many real threats against the president to begin with. I just can't imagine that there is much any government could do against a 400-500km/h drone specialized for a 20 second mission from being to accomplish the goal, the world leader would be dead by the time anyone even registered that there is a threat.
Are they? Please don't forget at least 50M Chinese in abject poverty and a demographic crisis barreling towards them that is not avoidable unless they develop cloning vats that can rapidly age a clone to productive adulthood in a compressed timeframe.
the governments have grown too powerful to be overthrown by people, and yes I do realize that the military itself is made out of people (for now), but in a way they are brainwashed? to follow orders from above.
We're already seeing that. You probably live in a coastal city, and so might be unaware of how just undeveloped so much of the country is. Look at things like literacy levels and political unrest as well.
The US is absolutely falling, it can be saved but not with the way half the country seems to vote.
but to get to the actual point: US is big, like very big and dominated by the strongest propaganda machine in the world: https://youtu.be/BY9uuxC_YAQ
You really don't think the US has had a steep decline over the last 2 decades in quality of life for most people? I'm not talking about people with six figure tech jobs in big cities.
I can't really speak for decades, none of us have been alive that long to live that difference - people generally live wealthier lives than 2 decades ago, at the cost of losing the ability to repair your own shit, being locked into buying new things when old ones work fine. but that's the failure of capitalism and legislation to subdue these issues.
What I am really trying to say is that I believe in time everything will be okay as long as we manage to survive the hardest challenge we have right now: AI causing major distruption in every single business causing further imbalance between people and coorperations.
People don't necessarily notice gradual changes. We have objective measures to show things have changed.
> I can't really speak for decades, none of us have been alive that long to live that difference
There's plenty of 50 and 60, even 70 year olds on this site...
> people generally live wealthier lives than 2 decades ago
Some people do. One of the biggest changes has been the continued erosion of the middle class.
> What I am really trying to say is that I believe in time everything will be okay as long as we manage to survive the hardest challenge we have right now: AI causing major distruption in every single business causing further imbalance between people and coorperations.
AI is nothing but a distraction. The problem is the ignorance of half the voting population who continually votes against their own interests out fear fueled by misinformation.
Of course some speech, association and rule of law (as opposed to rule by law) is enjoyed by most people. But it is indisputable that China restricts speech and association severely, and silences "troublemakers" arbitrarily.
Let me preempt the inevitable replies: this comment is about China and China alone. It it factual irrespective of what freedoms may or may not be enjoyed anywhere else including the US.
PS: I'm Brazilian btw with no Chinese heritage, I do like the Chinese history and every country/population has it's own paradoxical times and events.
As for concrete examples:
#1: Freedom of speech -- one may not advocate for LGBTQ+ rights, criticize the ruling party, advocate for a change of government or political system in China, state that Taiwan is an independent nation, argue in favor of free and open elections in Hong Kong, advocate for workers' rights, talk about Tiananmen Square, talk about human rights abuses in Xinjiang, talk about human rights abuses in China at all... and the list goes on. Someone might manage to do so, sneaking past the firewall, but they are liable to be slammed with #3 below.
#2: Freedom of association -- contrary to what one might expect in a country with "Socialism with Chinese characteristics", one may not unionize. In fact one may not set up any civil society group outside the approval of the CPC. I could editorialize on the reasons for this but I'll refrain in the interest of brevity.
#3: Freedom from arbitrary detention -- China has a specific category of criminal offense just for this: being able to detain anyone at any time for any reason. The crime is "Picking quarrels and provoking trouble", and is used liberally on anyone who speaks out against the government and manages to catch their attention. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picking_quarrels_and_provoking...
Now, Chinese people, and others, will argue that there's this reasona and that reason why it's good to restrict freedoms in this way. I obviously disagree. But what shouldn't be in dispute is the fact that these freedoms are very much restricted in China.
I believe I answered that question exactly.
Even Google and other big techs did a gigantic lobby against it in Brazil[1].
The appointed lawyer by Twitter, in 2023, even said in a meeting with the Brazil Minister of Justice: “That the Brazilian laws did not follow their Terms of Use”[2]. In the previous week there was a massacre at childcare which killed 4 children[3].
What the government asked at that time was to delete/suspend related accounts that promoted this type of crime.
0. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/are-tariffs-big-techs-new...
1. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/09/us-tec...
2. https://oglobo.globo.com/politica/noticia/2023/05/nao-estou-...
3. https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_de_Blumenau
In what way do you think the USA is currently doing better than China? Yes you can talk about Tiananmen Square, obviously, but there are other things you can't talk about.
Are you serious? You cannot be. A poor person in the USA has way more money than EU or China. They just love to complain on Reddit.
The rest of your post is delusion. What is your nationality?
On average, the USA is significantly richer than China and most EU countries, and this shows up in macro indicators such as GDP per capita, median income, and average wealth per adult. Even people at the lower end of the income distribution in the US often have higher nominal incomes than poor people in China, and sometimes higher than in poorer EU countries. Compared to China in particular, a poor person in the US usually has access to far more money and material goods.
However, Europe is not a single comparison point. In many Western European countries (France, Germany, Scandinavia), poor people often have similar or even better effective living standards than poor Americans once public services are included. Free or heavily subsidized healthcare, education, housing support, and transport can compensate for lower cash income and raise real living conditions. Finally, inequality matters. The US has much higher income inequality and weaker social safety nets than most of Europe. This means that while the country is richer overall, being poor in the US can be harsher than being poor in many EU countries, especially when accounting for healthcare costs and financial risk.
So the claim is broadly true when comparing the US to China, but not universally true when comparing the US to Europe, and it oversimplifies what “having more money” actually means.
ps: I live in Switzerland and it is a whole different story.
BUT I would rather be poor in the USA than poor in China.
This was the point.
EU is best ofc.
In practice .. for a lot of people, including a lot of Americans, the Chinese surveillance threat is a lot less immediate and a lot less likely to result in negative consequences for them personally than the US one. (Important exception: overseas Chinese! The extraterritorial police stations are really quite alarming)
If the war with Denmark goes hot, then the US companies become an extreme national security threat very quickly.
More positively, what's your opinion on this closer look post from Cloudflare?
Imagine an overworked, underpaid, network engineer. Mistakes happen. This time though, the entire world is hyper fixated on what amounts to an easy to make mistake and now your mistake is in the intel briefs of 50 countries. Oops. Rough day at the office.
These kinds of infrastructure is present everywhere, for a very long time. Just because not everyone is talking about the matter doesn't make it non-existent.
For example, in 2003, I saw how Japan monitored their network traffic in real time. It was eye opening for me, too. Technologies like DPI which required beefy servers are now trivial to implement with the right hardware.
This is all I can say.
Even if you have your own rack at a colocation, you could argue that if you don't have full disk encryption someone could simply copy your disk.
I am just trying to be practical. If someone is intent on reading what users specifically send me, they can probably find bad hygiene on my part and get it but my concern is they should not be able to do this wholesale at scale for everyone.
You can have full-disk encryption then. It can still possibly be compromised using more advanced methods like cold boot attacks but they are relatively involved, and is very detectable in the form of causing downtime.
Having the private key of the root cert does not allow you to decrypt traffic either.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center
It's "well known"? News to me.
I doubt the NSA has storage space for even 1 year's worth of "most of encrypted Internet traffic", much less for permanently storing it.
I suppose it's both but the latter is a more scarce resource
just kidding, it's just backup access via the datacenter wifi.
By "law enforcement", I'd assume the feds and not local. Why not just say which agency? Wouldn't this pretty much be FBI? Why use such a generic term?
the point is, this isn't the action of local authorities. this is state level activity. if it is local, that's a level of sophistication and corruption that I have ever been aware.
We(?) more or less want this to be a place of general curiosity,
perhaps revolving loosely around those things, but not tightly clung to them.
Sure it has!
The resolution was “go fuck yourself, what the fuck are you going to do about it?”.
Y’know: respectfully.
The section of the article pointing out the AS prepending makes it really clear the route leak is a nothing Burger.
It's incredibly unlikely this leak change how any traffic was flowing, and is more indicative of a network operator with an understaffed/underskilled team. Furry evidence is that a similar leak has been appearing on and off for several weeks.
That's not to say the US government can't, doesn't or didn't use the Internet to spy, it's just that this isn't evidence of it.
Relevant section below: > Many of the leaked routes were also heavily prepended with AS8048, meaning it would have been potentially less attractive for routing when received by other networks. Prepending is the padding of an AS more than one time in an outbound advertisement by a customer or peer, to attempt to switch traffic away from a particular circuit to another. For example, many of the paths during the leak by AS8048 looked like this: “52320,8048,8048,8048,8048,8048,8048,8048,8048,8048,23520,1299,269832,21980”.
> You can see that AS8048 has sent their AS multiple times in an advertisement to AS52320, because by means of BGP loop prevention the path would never actually travel in and out of AS8048 multiple times in a row. A non-prepended path would look like this: “52320,8048,23520,1299,269832,21980”.
> If AS8048 was intentionally trying to become a man-in-the-middle (MITM) for traffic, why would they make the BGP advertisement less attractive instead of more attractive? Also, why leak prefixes to try and MITM traffic when you’re already a provider for the downstream AS anyway? That wouldn’t make much sense.
Cloudflare's post boils down to Hanlon's razor: a plausible benign interpretation of the facts is available, so we should give some scrutiny to accusations of malice.
Are there specific relevant facts being omitted in the article, or other factors that diminish Cloudflare's credibility? They're clearly a qualified expert in this space.
Let's assume for the sake of argument that the BGP leaks (all of them from the month of December, in fact) were the result of secret US military intelligence operations. The fact that militaries generally use cyber vulnerabilities to achieve their objectives is not news, and the US military is no exception. Keeping specific exploits secret preserves a valuable advantage over competitor states.
One could argue that Cloudflare's post helps to preserve USG's secrecy. We can't know publicly whether USG solicited the article. But even if we assume so (again assuming malice): Is Cloudflare wrong to oblige? I don't think so, but reasonable people could disagree.
Merely pointing out Hanlon's razor doesn't fundamentally change the facts of the situation. In Cloudflare's expert opinion, the facts don't necessarily implicate USG in the BGP leaks without an assumption of malice. Assuming Cloudflare is malicious without justification is just deeper belief in the conspiracy that they're arguing against.
If Cloudflare is distorting the facts, we should believe (rightly) that they're malicious. But I don't see any evidence of it.
EDIT: Clarity tweaks.
"NSA Network Shaping 101". Big descriptions of ASINs, and layer 3 shaping. Written in 2007.
In what language do they communicate? Esperanto?
(I suppose some want french to be lingua franca, others spanish, others chinese .. but de facto those ain't international spoken languages, despite having lots of speakers)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy
The NSA and thirteen eyes generally have detailed traffic logging capability at core internet exchanges around the world. It is reasonable to think that a good way of exfiltrating data would be by having something like an ICMP or maybe even TTL based covert channel, such that there is no chance that the sent data is ever received by the recipient. I am just speculating – but that's why I thought this was interesting.
There were BGP anomalies during the Venezuela blackout
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46504963
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