Is Firefox Firefucked?
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The debate rages on: is Firefox "firefucked" or is it being unfairly maligned by its own users? Some commenters argue that Firefox's user base is too critical, yet the browser remains the only significant force holding back a rendering engine monopoly. Others push back, suggesting that criticizing Mozilla for its missteps is not only justified but necessary to hold the organization accountable. As the discussion swings between defending and criticizing Firefox, it becomes clear that the browser's fate is tied to the complex dynamics between its users, Mozilla's leadership, and the broader tech industry.
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Dec 19, 2025 at 10:42 AM EST
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I think some feel they are being held to extremely high standards.
As someone who's avoided the drama, and is a power user, Firefox has been great to me, and continues to be so.
Of course; Mozilla proudly proclaims that they live by higher standards, so their users hold them to higher standards.
(Guiltily raises hand. Although lately I've noticed a ping option, so I left that enabled.)
To be frank, I find that use of analytics as the primary determiner to be incredibly intellectually lazy. They’re being used as a stand-in for deep, holistic thought in design, user research, 1:1 interviews with users, etc when they shouldn’t be, and it’s making software as a whole much crappier than it needs to be.
I declined, but later they reintegrated their request with a servey, which I did accept.
These requests were presented through a dialog box attached to an extension (which many Firefox features are, internally, built-in extensions.)
I really want Firefox to succeed. Please enhance our security, privacy, ensure a performant browser AND I also like the project that Mozilla undertakes (rip send) hope to see more in the future.
If people saying what's wrong plainly and clearly is "vitriol" to you, then you have a problem with criticism.
The speed comparisons make no sense either. Chrome is slightly faster so you should give up your ability to block all ads and let Google abuse you in myriad ways while supporting a virtual monopoly? FFS.
Firefox is simply a better browser, hands down. It's a better design and more user friendly than Chrome. I only regret being on Chrome for so long.
[1] https://www.theregister.com/2025/03/12/mozilla_doj_google_se...
Were this 10 years ago, I'd say nothing. Today, google is turning into one of the worst at using user data against the users. From pushing ads disguised as search results to mining user data for adverts across platforms.
Making google the default search engine opts non-savvy users into using a bad actor for their searches.
No, I'm just stating why using google as the default engine is user hostile.
> What's your complaint?
Mostly that it's a user hostile move. Is it bad enough to make me personally switch? No. Part of why I use firefox is because I don't like the idea of consolidation for browsers into one renderer.
Organizations can make decisions I don't like and I'll still use their products. I'm allowed to identify those as issues. Mozilla hasn't done something that'd make me boycott their products.
> Do you pay for Firefox?
Yes, I donate to the Mozilla foundation.
Users tend to talk about mozilla like it's holding firefox hostage or something, but really the main gripe they have is building and maintaining browsers is beyond the scope of an individual. THEY couldn't fork firefox, but it's not impossible for someone with resources and connections to MAKE an entity that does. It just... hasn't happened again. Mozilla is a pretty insane freak-of-nature in the business world, and there's honest frustration about that which grows into "Firefox is doomed".
These things are far too complex and expensive to be produced as they should and as most FOSS is: for free, by a group of individuals who could fit around a breakfast table and don't answer to anyone but each other.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46318389
Maybe that's why they're complaining. Maybe they don't want Firefox spending it's time working itself into oblivion.
Of course the Mozilla Foundation isn't bound in any way to listen to them so it's going to happen anyway, but Firefox's users are upset for good reasons.
But the final bit in this post is really where I'm at: I have no idea where to go from here.
Currently on mobile I use Orion--it's the only mobile browser I've found where setting up AdBlocking is reasonably easy. Maybe I'll try it on Desktop.
But this doesn't really address the issue of there being only one rendering engine out there because it uses WebKit.
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/ublock-origin-lite/id674534269...
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/wipr-2/id1662217862
https://helium.computer
full disclosure: one of the devs is a friend of mine
if for some reason you want to use webkit on desktop (linux), there's always gnome web, but in my experience it can't handle anything beyond very basic browsing (for example, a youtube video will cause it to crash)
That's a good question. Mozilla has something like a half-billion dollars of assets, which is more than twice what the Linux Foundation reports. Does maintaining a web browser cost more than twice as much as maintaining an operating system? Hopefully not, but maybe it's time we find out.
I personally agree with these complaints. I think most people who intentionaly install Firefox agree with them. Despite all it's attempts otherwise, Firefox was and still is mostly used by "power users" and we're pretty much the only ones left now. Mozilla being the only working alternative to Alphabet domainance over the web doesn't change the validity of these issues. The real issue here is that Mozilla wants to be HUGE instead of just being a browser for humans.
I'd been a Firefox user since K-meleon (with a gap decade when Opera was actually a real browser and innovating). But for me the breaking point wasn't all this ad-tech stuff or the signalling of AI. It was when Mozilla showed they no longer cared about their core userbase and wanted to chase after demographics that didn't care about browsers at all; when they made the security theater Add-ons signing portal in version 37 and made it so one could not edit or install such things without Mozilla's central approval. These days, for me, it's just a fall back for my bank. I use a Firefox fork for my main browsers which is much more Firefox than Firefox.
This really isn't the case. Firefox has almost 200 million users, yet sub 10% of them have uBlock Origin installed:
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/addon/ublock-origin...
Less than half have any extensions installed (with extensions include language packs):
https://data.firefox.com/dashboard/usage-behavior
The users who talk about Firefox online are not the average user.
Nobody stood up for Brendan. Nobody is going to stand up for you.
First they're a cypto/addtech company, which is a type of company I wouldn't trust to run my browser. And this has resulted in them doing things in the past like:
Blocking ads and replacing them with their own ad networks ads: https://archive.is/W0k4j
Their rewards crypto was opt-in for creators. Making it look like creators were openly asking for donations in Braves crypto currency without their consent. They had to change this due to complaints: https://brave.com/blog/rewards-update/
Inserting their own affiliate links: https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/8/21283769/brave-browser-aff...
Installing a non-free VPN without user consent: https://www.xda-developers.com/brave-browser-installs-vpn-wi...
They criticise the effectiveness of ad block testing websites, and urge people to use and trust privacytests.org instead. They fail to mention the conflict of interest in that privacytests is run by a Brave employee. https://brave.com/blog/adblocker-testing-websites-harm-users...
More specifically in the case of software, egos kill projects, and expanding the scope of your project to include broader economic or social causes usually does the same.
This is correlated to a huge change in nerd culture - pseudonymity was much more common and encouraged, with people's real-life identities or views not really taken into account. ("on the internet, nobody knows you're a dog")
Social media happened, and now most people use their real-world identities and carry their real-life worldview into the internet.
This had a huge negative effect on internet toxicity and interpersonal trust, and Eich is a good example of that - auxiliary things being dredged up about someone, used as a cudgel against them for their real or perceived transgressions.
The end result is that effective project management has become a rare breed and we see all these colossal failures like Firefox...
https://www.waterfox.com/
https://librewolf.net/
https://floorp.app/
https://zen-browser.app
I have no sense of what they stand for
That plus seeming to chase every hype wave (Crypto, now AI) I just don’t get why I should care about them.
There a nice Mozilla Manifesto explaining the Mozilla mission and their values [1].
Apparently, it's difficult to find a stable, independent, and effective revenue model for an open-source browser that is completely free as a product, should not contain shady ads or product promotions, does not sell user data, and always puts the user first.
This is especially difficult because there are other free browsers with a similar mission that don't need to incur the cost of developing their own web engine.
[1]: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/manifesto/
Mozilla is a strawman for google that they can claim there exists another browser that is not chrome because of antitrust laws. And now that Microsoft forcefeeds win11 user with Edge it will not take long and google doesnt need firefox anymore.
For sure I would give a donation to firefox if they would build a decent browser which listens to the user but not as they do now.
just my 2 ct
I have no sense of what they stand for"
But it seems you do
It's an organisation that does the bidding of Big Tech, exactly as you said
Literally that's what it did with "the web browser". Ex-Mozilla employees joined Google to create Chrome. The companies work together on "the web browser". There is cooperation. Here, let us help you with that
Mozilla and Big Tech share a common mission: Keep the online advertising money-machine going. That's the hand that feeds it. It gets some donations from universities but it's inconsequential compared to the payments to the corporation from Big Tech
The web was not created to be a data collection, surveillance and ad delivery system
But now that it is, and "the web browser" (engine) is the instrument through which data collection, surveillance and ad delivery are conducted, Mozilla, like Big Tech, wants to keep that going
Others are correct when they portray the "problem" as Firefox users not Firefox or Mozilla. These users believe Mozilla is something that it isn't. Some kind of "symbol" that "stands for something". But the symbol and the supposed meaning does not match Mozilla's actions
By default, Firefox sends search query data to Google
People who work for Big Tech need a way to block ads when they themselves use the web. It would not surprise me if many used Firefox. But this is hardly the same as Firefox being a means for the general public to escape data collection, surveillance and ads, or even a symbol of such a thing. It's nothing of the sort
Firefox by default sends search query data to Google in return for payment
If you think the product is good keep using it - why on earth would you give up one of your most important pieces of software on your machine because you don't like the company that runs the main repo?
Because the nature of the dislike is that they keep making their software do things against my desires/interests.
Am I the one who is crazy and nitpicking here?
- when the browser is not in the visible workspace, chromium's cpu usage actually goes to 0 whilst firefox's usually oscilates around 5%
- every new window costs 30mb of ram for chromium and 100mb for firefox
- this one is weird, but when lightly using firefox while overall ram usage spilled well into swap, often after some time terminal emulator process will get swapped-out as if firefox eventually touched memory used by every tab sitting in the background
Firefox gets 90% of its funding from Google, putting Google effectively in control of Mozilla.
Ideally, Firefox would be financially supported by its users, like Wikipedia. But that requires ads nagging users to donate, preferably on a subscription plan.
Most of Firefox's users block ads, and they refuse to pay Mozilla a dime under any circumstances. Their users are freeloaders, providing no value to Firefox's other users or to Mozilla.
It would be nice if Mozilla could ignore the freeloaders and simply nag for donations anyway, but if the freeloaders leave and Mozilla tries to serve its donor users, they'll lose all of their Google funding and die.
I don't know if its possible because its not been tried, but it doesn't work from a low trust position and Mozilla is very much not trusted.
Discussions:
Mozilla appoints new CEO Anthony Enzor-Demeo
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46288491
Is Mozilla trying hard to kill itself?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46299934
No AI* Here – A Response to Mozilla's Next Chapter
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46295268
Make Me CEO of Mozilla
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46303809
I don't care about the Ai stuff as long is mostly opt-in or easily disabled at least.
Having said that I've been looking forward the Ladybug project as a another browser not part of the chromium swarm. I'm sure I'll give it a try when it's more mature.