The Fisherman and His Wife (1857)
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The Hacker News community shares and discusses the classic German fairytale 'The Fisherman and His Wife' (1857), exploring its themes, variations, and cultural significance.
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To understand how AI will reconfigure humanity, try this German fairytale
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2025/sep/16/ai-artificial-...
https://www.thoughtco.com/what-are-clarkes-laws-2699067
So D&D stats like wisdom and charisma that were easily overlooked in our modern world are starting to surpass, say, intelligence when it comes to self-actualization/ascension.
If we follow this to its logical conclusion, then there are magical laws to consider, if such things could possibly be summarized in words:
https://www.themystica.com/the-laws-of-magic/
http://www.neopagan.net/AT_Laws.html
I believe that every use of magic comes with a cost, which is unknown if the wielder isn't mindful of it. In the simplest terms: using magic to satisfy one's ego by acquiring something deprives someone of something - often the wielder.
There are a few ways to minimize the consequence of using magic:
1) Sacrifice something of value for the magic to consume
2) Appeal to a higher power through prayer, the law of attraction, etc like a paladin so that the spirit bears the cost
3) Act in alignment with the heart so that creation has a chance to help behind the scenes (loosely related to #2)
4) Avoid the use of magic altogether and stick to objectivity, that free will is a fantasy, that reason supersedes meaning, etc
I'm sure I'm missing some, as I'm relearning childish notions around magical thinking.
I think what we're seeing when our most wealthy and powerful leaders denounce empathy is the outward expression of #4. Because empathy allows one to simulate the subjective experience of others in the mind, which opens the door to meaning, the golden rule, reincarnation, even the multiverse and parallel timelines. On the one hand they say that magic is dead, but on the other they use tools like psychology/economics/politics that blur the line between science and magic in order to gain control.
The ultimate expression of tech as magic might be something like the Emperor in Star Wars. Total impeccability and plausible deniability from accountability, yet no soul.
What I've come to realize in my own life is that feeling the magic passing through us is akin to shifting realities. It can't be studied scientifically, because the observer may see outcomes that differ from those of other observers in the previous reality. Science may be deterministic on one timeline, but stochastic across timelines. Which ties into consciousness, quantum mechanics, synchronicity, pantheism, the many faces of God as every living thing, etc.
Whether we influence the world through our actions of manipulate it through control of our attention, karmic consequences still come. The inward flow of psychic energy for personal gain creates a sense of waiting for the other shoe to drop. Whereas the outward flow in service to others creates a sense of abundance. Life becomes a dance of working with these energies, either low-vibration or high-vibration, fear or love.
Where I'm going with this is that this rediscovered power of love has the potential to shift humanity into a reality where our demons can't follow. We are temporarily on this one which seems to be fraught with danger because maybe some part of our soul felt that our help was needed here most. We can shift to a gentler timeline if we wish, or continue playing the life we paid a quarter for in the astral plane and do some world building here.
From a Zen perspective, I've said too much, yet nothing at all. I hope this helps someone find a little peace and light amidst the separation and darkness of these times.
http://www.neopagan.net/AT_Laws.html
If magick were real, the person behind that MySpace-worthy website background would have been cursed into oblivion by now.
Ergo, magick isn't real.
There is only evidence that this is our only life; no reincarnation or some spiritual realm that persists our identity/ego/soul/consciousness/memory.
Absence of evidence is not evidence for absence.
which do you believe is the right default position to have:
a) nothing, unless something is proven, OR
b) something, unless nothing is proven
it seems to me that (a) is the more prudent stance and hence much more likely to be correct.
It's certainly entertaining and fulfilling to believe there is some great, deep truth and that you're finding it through the concept of magic, but your mental energy would better be spent understanding things like politics and technology for what they are, not draped in the context of the supernatural.
Overall your post comes off as detached from reality and this is my attempt to help you see that, I'm not interested in debating any of this stuff because there is plenty of literature and experimental results which already do a great job of this.
^^^ Any sufficiently advanced tech..
Under the definition I'm using, demons live in our mind, often operating through the subconscious mind. The Ancient Greek notion of a daemon described an entity which existed between the realm of gods and humans, connecting our deterministic material plane to the spiritual plane:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daemon_(classical_Greek_mythol...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimonion_(Socrates)
Taken literally it means that gods don't just live on Mount Olympus, but are present in our psyche at all times, vying for our attention.
So for example, someone compelled to drink alcohol might have let their mind become ruled by Dionysus (or the Roman name Bacchus), or a daemon in service of that god or pretending to be that god. Same for gambling (Hermes/Mercury). Or politics (Zeus and Athena/Jupiter and Minerva).
Today's billionaires would be ruled by gluttany (Adephagia/Nemesis) although the Romans equivocated on this because concepts like master and slave had different meanings then, because the empire's existence depended on subjugation so it became "just how things are". Much like in the modern era "it is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understand it" (Upton Sinclair).
So Nemesis may have allowed a human to reach a high station, even emperor, unless that human committed hubris. For example by defying the gods by trying to become a god, like Croesus did by seeing what he wanted to see:
https://www.parikiaki.com/2021/12/croesus-of-lydia/
For billionaires, obsessive thoughts revolve around health, mortality and waiting for the other shoe to drop, since they experience Nemesis without knowing its name. Whereas for farmers, concerns are more about putting food on the table, since their thinking is ruled by Demeter/Ceres.
This relates to modern concepts in psychology like "symphony of mind", that the faculties in our brain lead to the emergence of agents which influence our spiritual vibration to dominate our thinking.
So when someone perceives the presence of a demon through sight/sound or feeling, it's more like their intuition is communicating with them through a sense which is not well-defined. For nonbelievers or people who haven't experienced trauma yet which stresses the mind into seeking non-objective explanations for the breakdown of their reality, angels and demons are just as mythical as say, hearing voices or having multiple personality disorder. But for people who have witnessed paranormal activity, the idea that there may be more to our reality than we typically experience is as true as say, the love of a child for its parent.
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I've seen one or two things that I can't explain, that would amount to ghost stories and close encounters. But I've also seen things that were later explained. For example, I was hiking in the desert at night one time with friends and a star lit up so that for a second or two, it was as bright as day, but it wasn't a shooting star. I later learned about Iridium satellite flares.
So I'm open to the idea that magic doesn't exist. But as long as science can't explain how consciousness works, then none of this can be ruled out. IMHO science will never be able to do that, because I believe that consciousness is the quantum uncertainty portion of nondeterminism. In other words, everything down to the subatomic level has a measure of consciousness, that we observe as an outcome or choice. Without consciousness (uncertainty), the universe would evolve in a purely deterministic fashion.
But when we introduce self-awareness by adding an observer, the act of observation influences the uncertainty to determine which timeline we walk. We control our destiny and may have even had a hand in our past before our consciousness reached a level of organization that would allow us to remember why we chose to come into being. Our awareness isn't a separate aspect of reality, they're two sides of the same coin, which is analogous to pantheism.
It's certainly entertaining and fulfilling to believe there is some great, deep truth and that you're finding it through the concept of magic, but your mental energy would better be spent understanding things like politics and technology for what they are, not draped in the context of the supernatural.
I would urge you to play devil's advocate and consider that the simplest explanation tends to be the right one by Occam's razor. Politics and technology give people an out so that they can rationalize groupthink and amoral behavior. A strong argument could be made that today's political landscape is comprised of tribes that engage in cult-like thinking, similarly to how multilevel marketing schemes (MLMs) attract evangelists due to how their incentives align.
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So all of this that makes no sense - like why we would want to elect public officials who are free of accountability - becomes transparently obvious when viewed through the lens of metaphysics. It's because the cognitive dissonance people experience living under systems of control like ours (that promote suffering when there is plenty for everyone were it not for wealth inequality) compels them to reach for solutions that allow them to defer their own accountability.
Because they don't want to begin the healing and growth work that would help them ascend past their self-imposed limitations, because they don't want to face their guilt and shame. So they project their frustrations outward as elitism, favoritism, discrimination, othering, division, dogma, prejudice, authoritarianism, etc. Which politicians turn into wedge issues so they can choreograph elections, sort of like gerrymandering but by framing debates instead of district boundaries.
When politicians orate and capture the hearts and minds of their base to gain power, it's no different than church leaders taking their lord's name in vain to further their own wordly goals, or magicians pulling the wool over their audience's eyes to create the illusion of a fantasy reality to make a buck. It's all magic, just like consciousness is magic.
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You're right that my post comes off as detached from reality, I get it. But I think there's a difference between studying a subject to master it and transcend its rules to add new ones, and practicing willfull ignorance of a subject to pretend that its implications don't exist.
Remember that Carl Sagan warned in The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark:
"I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...
The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance"
But also wrote the character Palmer Joss in his book Contact to remind us to question our most deeply held assumptions, so that we don't inadvertently worship reason as a substitute for meaning.
* https://edition.cnn.com/2025/09/19/business/media-business-t...
https://slate.com/podcasts/decoder-ring/2024/09/how-if-you-g...
Older generations might have been most offended by the "becoming like God" part. The enchanted fish was willing to grant any wish that is in principle achievable by a human being, even the most ridiculous wish of becoming Pope.
But the moment the wish transcends that human realm it is turned down and punished.
I guess the theme of "becoming like God" resonates with the story from Adam and Eve's fall.
In which religion is the God humble? It wont be Christianity for sure.
You don't have to believe it, of course, but God humbling himself is pretty much the defining aspect of Christianity.
That is self sacrifice.
But another reading is: God would have chosen the shack (grace to the humble, etc.) So she got her wish.
> And they are sitting there even today.
... hints strongly that once that wish was granted, she stopped wanting something different.
But I'm really not sure what to make of the ending.
> "Oh," he said, "she wants to become like God."
> "Go home. She is sitting in her filthy shack again."
This is ambiguous. The flounder simply acknowledges a change in state without saying whether he actually fulfilled the request or not.
If he rejected the request, then it's a tale about checking ambition, trying to be like God, etc.
But if he accepted the request? Then it's advancing a very different idea of what God is like.
I wonder if the original German is equally ambiguous...
EDIT: I suppose she's not making the sun and moon rise, so maybe I'm overcomplicating it.
In my head, all that Sunday school I had internalized as a kid makes me think, "This is not the kind of church Jesus would preach at" when I see a really nice church where wealthy people attend.
Some Christians talk about "mammonites" or "the cult of mammon":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammon
- wealth and power are not reliable proxies for favor and righteousness (as many in Jesus's day thought)
- wealth and power come with unique temptations
Jesus also said "make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous wealth, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal dwellings" and there's a bunch of proverbs that talk about how the diligent prosper.
A lot of wealthy people are really generous.
And Luke 16:9, which you quoted, is taken out of context.
> A lot of wealthy people are really generous.
Not so much that they give away all that they have, as Jesus commanded. So, more like "kinda really generous, but not enough that it hurts".
[I am an atheist, but I will not stand for antithetical repurposing of religious texts.]
What context am I missing?
>Not so much that they give away all that they have, as Jesus commanded
Matthew 19:16-30, which you're quoting, is taken out of context.
https://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/does-jesus-teach-us-t...
Only God knows.
Maybe she spent a near-eternity in agony with all that power and responsibility, and wished it all away. "Genie...er, Fish, make me an all-powerful fish!!!"
>> "Oh," he said, "she wants to become like God."
>> "Go home. She is sitting in her filthy shack again."
Jesus was poor and humble and God. Like, remember which cup the Holy Grail was in the test at the end of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade?
She exactly got her wish, it just wasn't what she expected because she was a greedy fool.
Edit: and this take is interesting: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45303908. It might even be a happy ending for her.
The translation is good and authentic. Those who can read Low German[1] can compare the slightly different versions here[2]. In their comments[3 (German)], the brothers Grimm state that the storyline of a woman who pushes her husband for too much is ages old and known in many cultures. They have picked the richest German version.
If a Straussian reading is needed, then it should be considered that a Low German story from a coastal - hence Protestant - region rates the pope higher than the king.
[1] Low German was a way of getting crap[4] past the radar for the Grimms. Compared to the Juniper Tree[5] (Van den Machandelboom - Low German, again), this fairy tale is harmless.
[2] https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Vom_Fischer_und_seiner_Frau
[3] https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Kinder-_und_Haus-M%C3%A4rchen...
[4] What he translates as "filthy shack" is literally a "pissing pot", i.e. a chamber pot. He seems to have a hard time telling it as it is. Maybe, the Straussian reading makes sense.
[5] https://sites.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm047.html - you have been warned.
The more jaded you are the less of them you'll reject but also the less of them you needed to be told.
1) Listen to your conscience & speak up unambiguously
2) Something like "Victim blaming is correct in moderation"?
I don't know if I agree with that but it seems like an interpertation
Or it could mean that due to the transient nature of all material things, anything gained will invariably break down eventually. All desire leads to loss.
Maybe it's both. I think it's both.
https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Von_dem_Fischer_un_syner_Fru_...
It wouldn't surprise me if it is even easier for someone from the german-dutch border region who is fluent in a local dialect.
There's nothing new about dirty minds; male monkeys will "pay" (give treats back) to see porn of female monkeys in heat.
I don't see the AI connection in any case.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45300111
https://sites.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm055.html
His interest in colors certainly left a trace in the elaboration how the sea and the sky are colored and change their colors.
Runge contributed another tale, “Von dem Machandelboom” ‘Of / about the juniper tree’. Both tales were held in high regard by the Grimms. They saw some traits as typical or classical for the genre, e.g. the repetitions, parallelisms with rising tension.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp_Otto_Runge#Runge_and_c... –
In the Russian version, the fisherman's wife's final and mistaken wish is to be the Queen of the Sea, with the fish as her servant.
It's easy to read this story and think "Hah! Look at that greedy wife, I would not keep asking for more." But... would you ask for anything at all, then? And if you did and got it, would you be satisfied forever? All of history suggests that it is human to keep ratcheting it up.
And on the other hand, is it really "better" to be the fisherman? He may be satisfied with living in a filthy shack, but hey, he's out fishing every day. She's living in it. Is he really in a position to judge his wife for wanting something better?