Tokyo Has an Unmanned, Honor-System Electronics and Appliance Shop
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Honor System
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Trust in Society
A Tokyo electronics shop operates unmanned with an honor system, sparking discussion on the role of trust in different societies and the feasibility of such a system in other countries.
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I wish we had a way to make this sort of system work in a low trust society.
The modern examples in the USA are things like colleges, community centers, etc.
You gatekeeper the area and then everything inside is high-trust and you can get away with things like this.
You can also find it in rural areas and some very expensive islands, too.
There might be a camera but since there's usually no power, it'd have to be some sort of trail/game/deer cam. What would you do with the result besides some vigilante frontier justice? No cop anywhere but daytime children's TV is going to investigate the Case of the Stolen Syrup.
Or Japan apparently, according to some of the comments in this thread.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarce...
Also in 2024, Japanese prison sentences were mostly between 1 and 3 years, and about two thirds were fully suspended. https://www.moj.go.jp/content/001436547.pdf (page 20). Assuming an average of two years for the third not-fully-suspended, that works out to 8 months of time spent in prison per person handed a prison sentence.
That results in about a factor of 7 difference in prison population simply due to the difference in average sentence length. Maybe the US should sentence more people to prison but keep each of them there shorter.
Whatever the suspect may say afterwards, they just have to point out to the signed statement and say "but here you confessed".
Source: I have been directly living such occurrence lol.
That's what has been coined the "hostage justice" of Japan (referring in particular to the "long detention times during investigations" part above).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostage_justice
Its net effect is that you absolutely do not want to have anything to do with the police to help solve your problems in the society (true problems, not merely e.g. asking for directions). And then you really want to avoid problems at all.
So, you cannot think of them as "friendly useful workers to help solve problems", because they are heavily incentivized and biased to find or invent crimes if you give them the opportunity.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but police interviews are recorded in the US?
And also, you always have the right to an attorney? (that's not the case in Japan except if you want to stay 20 days incarcerated while waiting for an attorney, all for a tiny minor dismeanor).
this is commonly said in the USA as well
Maybe I rather have (had) the notion of police as it exists in the UK or some European countries.
There was the French "police de proximité" who acted as friendly allies (it seems it was dismantled in 2003, unfortunately).
LA "the city" might be less but you can't tell where LA ends and it's other parts begin. It's one giant metropolis. Same with NYC.
There are countries that are equal or much smaller than Switzerland with 10x worse crime and low trust. Just look at Jamaica.
And there are countries 12x bigger than Switzerland (like Japan) with high trust and low crime.
Denmark is still a fairly high-trust society, not to the level of Switzerland or Japan. We're seeing certain items in supermarkets being locked away or chipped to prevent theft. Now that's not just because of immigrants, Danes steal from the supermarket as well, because prices on many items are increasing rapidly.
If it adds enough of illegal immigrattion or low-grade legal one, it wont be a high trust society anymore.
I’d rather we had a way to change low trust societies into high trust.
Overrated. There's close to 0% of it going on in "low trust societies" anyway. It's not like the average social media zombie in the west is anywhere near an "out of the box" thinker...
Destruction of traditional culture by things like colonialism seems to be an important factor.
Were native peoples of North America high trust between tribes before colonialism?
The larger ancient cities that farmed would be more interesting, especially because today Latin America is one of the lowest trust regions of the world.
Granted, this was almost 40 years ago, but this type of thing can work, even in less civilized places like the US.
Gillette razors on the other hand, are expensive to stock for their size, and easy to steal because of their size.
You still had a chance for a random bus inspection, but generally you can just walk into the bus and not pay anything, then walk out.
It was so strange at first, to see everyone paying when there was no authority demanding a payment.
Knowing that government trusts people around me to behave like good citizens, and knowing how many people actually follow the rules, definitely helped me to feel safer in the city.
15 years ago you had to put your wallet in the inner pocket because bags and outer pockets routinely got slashed. Now I can leave my bag on a bench. This difference got erased only when economy became more stable, and employment went up.
But I didn't know that I could leave my bag on a bench before I saw with my own eyes that almost everyone tries to be a good citizen. Even if there is no punishment and a small reward for behaving badly
It's decades since I backpacked around Europe on trains and such, and back then slashing pockets and bags was rife. I never traveled anywhere unless I was wearing a money belt strapped to my waist—it held my passport, traveler's checks, large denomination notes and credit cards. I kept my wallet (with only a small amount of cash) in my front jeans pockets—I reckoned that down there I'd notice any slashing pretty quickly. Pants with side pockets were a no-no because they were too easy to pickpocket.
I recall one particularly bad incident in Italy of being surrounded by organised mobs of kids who'd act in ways to distract one's attention whilst others tried to pickpocket one's valuables. I came out unscathed because I was wary from the start.
Later I was living and working in Europe and it was very obvious to me that this sort of crime is much more prevalent in areas where people are unemployed or where there is a great disparity between rich and poor. I've no doubt the solution to such crime is having a society where the distribution of wealth is more equitable.
Re that point and yours about self-checkout for bus rides. That system was implemented a few years ago where I am. I've made the interesting observation that those who travel outside normal to-and-from work hours—say late morning and early afternoon—are the ones most likely to not swipe their travel card on the payment terminal. When I've traveled at those times I'm surprised at the numbers who do not pay. This is in stark contrast to those who are traveling to and from work, at those hours just about everyone pays.
Again, this, no doubt, is an equity/financial issue. Those traveling in the 'off hours' are more likely to be unemployed and or financially hard up.
These machines in UK felt like I was being trusted to pick items myself, and pay myself and I shouldn't break that trust.
Ironically I don't see these self checkout machines in Indian/Turkish/Kurdish etc super stores. In-fact, those stores trust there customers even less, they would ask you to leave your bags/trolleys at the door.
The system will also typically signal for an attendant if you after a short amount of time ensures the weight on the receiving end matches the expected weight of the items scanned so far.
There's not all that much trust involved in it, and I think just being aware of the cameras will make most people who might be tempted think twice.
Of course it's possible to steal still, but it doesn't need to be perfect, it just needs the shrinkage to add up to a lower cost than having more people at the tills.
I also don't like to use those systems if I have many hard to pack items. But at some point I guess you just remove humans completely.
When in Tokyo I encountered vending machines on a public street (the Ginza) that dispensed bottles of whiskey—Suntory if I recall—that operated 24 hours a day. If you wanted a drink at 3AM you could get it.
Where I am that vending machine would be vandalized overnight and the owner of such an appliance shop would be broke and out of business the next day.
Shame really.
Edit: A Westerner but longtime resident of Japan told me when I was working there of a hotel robbery where an American tourist had valuables and jewelry worth a substantial sum taken from her hotel room. The robbery was big enough to make the newspapers which led to the return of the jewelry. The thief after seeing the news story returned them with a message to the effect "Sorry, I wouldn't have stolen them if I'd known you were a visiting tourist".
Perhaps the story is apocryphal but it and other stories such as if you lose your wallet there's good chance it'll be returned complete with cash—is testament to the honesty of Japanese people.
As a nonsmoker, I can't speak about cigarette machines, likely there was no ID on them too.
Nowadays, with smartphones etc. checking IDs is comparatively easy but I can't think how it would have been done back then.
I guess that also applies to France... because why would we use machines when we could just walk into a shop and buy cigarettes without ID?
I remember my much older sister sending me off to buy cigarettes for her when I was maybe 12 and having zero problems. Many of my friends smoked through high school, also with zero problems acquiring cigarettes.
So yeah, using machines to buy cigarettes as a kid? Unimaginable for me, but I'm guessing not the way you were imagining it.
Exactly, I'm not in France but that practice was pretty common in most Western countries not that many decades ago (see my reply to this post). I didn't mention it but where I am (Australia) it also was pretty common for a kid to go to the shops to pick up cigarettes for, say, a parent.
When I first went to France decades ago (I've relatives in Paris) I found smoking was even more culturally entrenched than where I am, there were posters everywhere for Gitanes, Gauloises and other cigarettes. In fact, France is the home of many classic posters advertising or showing people smoking, many are so good they're now considered works of art.
I've not been to France for some time but I gather in recent years the French's attitude towards smoking has changed dramatically and the practice is now frowned upon culturally—or at least that's my perception from a far. Correct me if I'm wrong.
That's not what I'd have expected (anyway, not to such a degree); unlike the puritanical guilt-ridden English, I'd have thought French culture was more resilient. What brought this change to my attention was the recent kerfuffle over the French icon Jacques Tati's M. Hulot where posters on the Métro were censored—M. Hulot is portrayed sans pipe!
My immediate reaction was 'sacrilege, the vandal who did that had an unmitigated damn hide—what the Hell's going on in France to allow that to happen?'. You see, I'm a great Tati fan and Jour de fête, Les Vacances de Monsieur Hulot and Mon Oncle are some of my most loved films—so the 'desecration' affected me personally.
As I've mentioned, I'm a nonsmoker and I applaud the reduction in smoking in recent years but vandalizing a cultural icon is carrying the anti-smoking message too far, it not only rendered M. Hulot's most idiosyncratic characteristic mute, but also make a mockery of the anti smoking message and it's likely to have been counterproductive. If what happened to M. Hulot had occurred in the UK or Righteous America I'd have said 'that's to be expected' but that it occurred in France was a total surprise.
No doubt, there was a backlash from Tati fans. I've not heard the outcome, what occurred in the wash-up?
BTW, As a kid I saw Mon Oncle not long after the film was released and I was enthralled. I never tire of seeing it.
TBH, I think "frowned upon" would be an optimistic take on the current attitude towards smoking. It is still (to me) inexplicably common and popular.
That said, I actually think you've got an inverted view on French opinion. I'd say it's what you consider a desecration that didn't matter to us. People do stuff, sometimes silly stuff, and I think we generally do not lose sleep over it. The notion that it was vandalizing some cultural icon is honestly the kind of thinking that we'd be less likely to abide, more than we'd oppose anti-smoking vandalism. :)
But: maybe I'm just projecting.
I've not been to France for well over a decade so I've no personal feel for the current cultural mindset so in my ignorance "frowned upon" seemed a way of extrapolating with only limited information. I thus cannot say whether I've an inverted view of French opinion, what I can say however is that my opinion was formed from multiple press reports that many in France were outraged and that some politicians were even calling for a change in the law to stop any repetition (as I've mentioned, I'm not au fait with subsequent events).
As a fan of Tati films of course I'm hyperbolizing to a degree but it's not anti-smoking vandalism that's my main point. The issues are complex so I have to be careful what I say here, I cannot give a long explanation on HN to cover every nuance; and paraphrasing is dangerous, when doing so issues can become black and white when in fact they're various shades of gray.
The best I can do here is to say that the Hulot's pipe issue is symptomatic of a bigger problem in society(ies) where after a problem or issue is identified there's often an overreaction that's not necessarily beneficial to the outcome, it can not only slow down solutions but also it's likely to create a very charged and ugly political environment.
There are many instances of this, nuclear power and accidents, Montreal Protocol/CFCs, Plastics/pollution, CO2/fossil fuels vs renewables vs climate change, fear of chemicals/chemicals in the environment, etc.—all matters I obviously cannot cover here in detail.
I will however come back to the smoking/tobacco matter for a moment. This controversy has divided societies to various degrees for decades, and much of the debate is emotional rather than rational (that said, I'm not suggesting for a second that smoking isn't dangerous, it certainly is). In some countries such as the US, UK and Australia (especially so anglophone ones) debate is no longer just that but rather has descended into a screaming match between sides, logic no longer reigns. Some opponents of smoking act almost to the point of hysteria when anyone with a cigarette comes near them but many of these very same people are quite prepared to sit near a camp fire or BBQ and not complain about the smoke—and in so doing they'll absorb a much higher dose of carcinogenic dioxins than they would from someone with a cigarette. As with those other examples, all too often emotions overrule facts.
Now briefly back to Tati's M. Hulot. When those films were made in late 1940s through to the '60s smoking was not only culturally acceptable but also it had a certain prestige and sophistication about it. Now that in many countries smoking is on the nose so to speak what are we to do? One obvious option is to ban these films altogether, or to give them an 'R' rating so only adults are able to view them. If this trend were to continue (which in my opinion is highly likely) then we could end up in a situation where we see people sneaking into movie theaters in the dead of night or in the case of online streaming viewers would have to first provide verifiable ID of proof of age. If alive today long-dead filmmakers of these once-deemed harmless movies would be horrified.
To some extent this has already happened, many truly classic Warner Bros cartoons of my childhood are now banned from television, same with The Three Stooges on grounds of them being too violent. That said, the hypocrisy is truly outrageous, these days there is any amount of gun and gratuitous violence on TV, in movies and online. Most find this acceptable, only a comparatively small minority of the population actually objects to the violence. So much for objectivity.
Moreover, I expect such problems only to increase. Recently, I've been watching TV soaps from the 1960s (on free-to-air TV) and frankly there are themes—both dialogues and images—that would not appear in TV programs made today, in fact I'm surprised they too haven't been withdrawn because of content that's 'unacceptable' to modern audiences (again, I cannot go into specifics for reasons stated).
The broader issue is how far do we go to protect society from not only itself but also from its past, and what effect does such action have on society? The extension thus is how do we measure whether interventions have positive or negative outcomes, or is often the case how do we quantify the actual damage when opinionated groups within society lobby government for laws that overprotect and mollycoddle citizens? Evidence is that in recent decades certain rules introduced to protect society have ended up making its citizens less resilient, moreover it wasn't necessarily obvious this would occur when they were introduced.
For example, rules introduced to protect the welfare of children have in recent years become so strictured that we're now seeing instances of negative outcomes, consequences are that some kids have become dysfunctional. Overprotecting kids out of fear for their safety has become so all encompassing that we're now witnessing all too many instances of kids being too frightened to leave their homes unless accompanied by an adult, isolation from the world around them has made them fearful of it. If you'd mentioned to anyone that could happen to kids when I was that age they'd have quickly retorted that you were bonkers.
That might seem a long stretch from banning M. Hulot's pipe from the Métro but it is not. Fact is, this is how the rot begins. As I implied, making the correct calls to protect society is both complex and fraught with difficulty. That's not to say we don't need them or that we shouldn't try because we definitely do need them. What we don't need are decisions made on the spur of the moment by the opinionated, rather we need to make time to develop well thought through strategies
"Unimaginable in most countries."
Well, perhaps so these days, but it wasn't at all so when I was a kid. At somewhere between 10 and 12 years old when still in primary school occasionally we kids bought cigarettes on our way home and ducked off somewhere secluded to smoke them.
A few shopkeepers wouldn't sell them to us but many would. There weren't many cigarette machines about (they were usually located on railway stations, in theater foyers etc.), but those in use could be operated by anyone including us kids. Moreover, cigarettes were very cheap, they had nothing like the huge taxes on them of today—so cheap we had no difficulty in purchasing them out of our pocket money.
Kids smoking was frowned upon by most parents and teachers but it wasn't illegal. That's why we smoked in secluded places where we wouldn't be seen. (Back then, smoking was accepted and considered pretty normal for adults, especially men. Since then attitudes have changed dramatically.)
For the record, except for that occasional experimenting as a kid I've never smoked since, nor have I ever had any desire to do so.
Than he ran equally fast to his train, which was ready to leave. Had he not run so fast while returning the wallet to its owner, he would have lost his train. Therefore, doing a good deed had required quite an effort for that Japanese, but this had not dissuaded him.
No one wants used white goods. Fridges, washing machines and dishwashers you can pick up below $100 easily.
"High trust society" or not, you need some minimum level of security to avoid becoming a honeypot for all the less-trustworthy individuals that exist in any society. Maybe the highest trust here is in the police actually showing up and doing something about it when they report a theft.
That and this whole concept can only happen in places with low criminality. In Thailand I occasionally find small shops that have a CCTV and that's it (but the total value of goods on display likely does not exceed $100)
This is how it works in the U.K. - everyone has cctv, not because it prevents theft or allows the police to investigate, but rather because it allows you insurance coverage for any losses.
1. It's half what it was 20 years ago.
2. The largest group of perpetrators are people in their mid 30s, not 17-20yo like it was two decades ago and they focus on online fraud, not actually going places to commit crimes.
[0] Specifically corner shops with a self-checkout machine and just one person behind the non-self checkout counter who wouldn't be able to react anyway should anyone leave with the goods.
People have been arrested here for grabbing a medium combini coffee cup and using it to serve a large coffee.
https://japantoday.com/category/national/junior-high-princip...
I'm not sure there's any scope for debate here really, surely its all a bit beyond beyond "it was an accident, Officer" at that stage ?
God I love Japan.
Studies show that the most important thing about criminal punishment is certainty of being caught and prosecuted.
This might lead someone to wrongly conclude that high order societies are a matter of policing. It's not. It's a matter of culture. Japan doesn't have more cops per citizen than your average 1st world country. But they do have a culture that deeply condemns crime and values honor.
Totally irrelevant point.
Walk into any supermarket in a Western country these days.
The place is crawling in CCTV.
The packets of steak and other "expensive" stuff have RFID anti-theft tags on them.
The self-service checkouts have close-up CCTV and anti-theft weight comparison systems.
Many even employ security contractors to stand by the door.
Does it prevent thefts ?
Does it hell. The scumbag steals the goods and says F** Y** to the security guard on the way out. By the time the police get there (if they can even be bothered to turn up for such a minor crime) its too late.
So yes, I am with the original blog. CCTV or not, the sort of thing shown in the blog could only happen in Japan.
Sn Francisco super markets on the other hand (and increasingly everywhere else), have to lock cheeses and baby formulas
Way to make it very American..
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