Nintendo Switch 2 Dock Usb-C Compatibility
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Nintendo Switch 2Usb-C CompatibilityProprietary Technology
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Nintendo Switch 2
Usb-C Compatibility
Proprietary Technology
The Nintendo Switch 2 dock has been found to have limited USB-C compatibility, sparking controversy over Nintendo's intentions and customer treatment, with many users expressing frustration and disappointment.
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I'll be curious to see how their testing and data compares to gamersnexus testing and what their first catching a manufacturer's lies event will be.
Labs is necessary for their content.
Data to provide evidence of performance objectively evaluates products, benefiting everyone. For example, show me who has been verifying the quality and performance claims of computer power supplies without equipment such as LTT labs.
If you want to be reductive about it - technology and their gadgets are valuable for the audience, but not strictly necessary.
You argue that it's beneficial for informing the consumer. It is, but no one here disagreed with that.
I don’t think LTT goal is just be another commodity YouTube review site whose entire appeal is dependent on a single personality. That not really a scalable or long term sustainable approach.
Large journalist organisations of any kind aren’t built by aiming to be mediocre.
The reason labs was started was to be able to produce different kinds of content, and to have a moat on technical data and quality of reviews that no one else can pull off.
They have their own site and all
Nope. The MacBook Pro started charging off the Switch instead.
The standard allows for a role swap at any point while connected, and if that’s triggered will be dependent on the firmware/config on one or both ends.
There’s probably more nuance hiding in the real world hardware too.
> Any DRP port must have pull-down 5k1 resistors on CC wires (as a sink), AND 10-22-56k pull-ups (as provider), but not at the same time. The DRP then alternates the sink advertising (5k1 pull-downs) with pull-ups (source advertising) about 10 to 20 times per second.
> If another DRP is connected, they both will toggle their advertising until a correct (pull-up - pull-down) combination occurs. Then CC controller(s) will stop toggling, and the end that happens to be in provider mode will provide +5VSAFE VBUS. The process will end in one or other direction, which will happen at random (since frequencies of toggling are independent).
I think to solve it, while keeping all the other goals of usb C would be to orient the charging pins on the plug, not charging the direction you want? unplug then flip one side.
A laptop and a power bank both support both modes, but the laptop will have a "prefer sink" policy and the power bank will have a "prefer source" policy. As long as you don't connect two laptops or two power banks, it'll work out just fine.
Moreover, it has an override mechanism in case you do connect two identical devices. If you do connect two laptops together for data transferring, the OS should be able to let the user override the power flow direction - or even disable charging altogether.
Basically DRPs toggle back and forth between sink and source until they happen to match up (one side has switched to source and one to sink). If it doesn’t prefer to do the role it’s resolved to randomly, it can switch to the other way and wait a bit - if the other side is fine with it then it will switch too and everyone is happy, if not you can switch back.
We use this for a device that can on-charge a device when it has external power plugged in (in which case we prefer source role) but not when running on battery (in which case we prefer sink but don’t actually pull any power because it’s self powered).
I've only tried it out on one occasion, and I'm not clear on the delay, or whether both ends need to be disconnected or only one. I was a little surprised it isn't talked about more.
You know more about this than me, so now I think what I stated about unplugging and re-plugging is likely incorrect advice, one step above "turn the cable around" which I think also works enough of the time that people keep trying it and repeating it as a method.
But the conclusion on this article seems to lean more towards that it could be a mistake or bug. I guess that might be the case - didn’t they screw up USB-C on the switch 1? I know it’s an incredibly complex standard.
I guess the only way to know if it’s intentional or a bug, is if Nintendo updates the switch to fix it. As Linus said in his video, the Nintendo USB isn’t very “universal”.
It’s not until much further in the video that they backtrack a bit and call it “tactical laziness” by Nintendo. Honestly, I did not get that far on my first watch.
[0] YouTube now confusingly shows different titles randomly. I’m seeing “Nintendo’s Greed could Change the Tech Industry” but that may not be its real title for all I know.
See Tom Scott video, “this video has 74 million views“ (quantity subject to change in future)
It explicitly stopped short of explicitly suggesting it due to a lack of evidence.
The Switch 2 came out in a world with widespread standards compliant USB-C.
Switch 1 was released in 2017. PD 1.0 was 2013 , and display port out was 2014. Both were supported by numerous devices by the time the switch 1 was out.
Granted they really wanted hdmi alt mode which was 2016 but the switch 1 doesn’t even support display port out which could have been coupled with a converter in the dock.
The simpler reason is that Nintendo both cheaps out on parts and has no incentive to increase compatibility. The number of users who care is not worth it for Nintendo to care, and they’re not afoul of any regulations.
Pretty sure the Switch (1) Dock used a similar HDMI adapter. Even the PS4 had a DP > HDMI adapter internally for some reason.
> Even the PS4 had a DP > HDMI adapter internally for some reason.
DP is far more than just an external display protocol. Its biggest use case is internal display signals, so it’s used to power pretty much every laptop screen.
As a result standard PC hardware (which is what the PS4 is) has defacto support for DP, because is the standard display transport between embedded video components. As a result it’s a lot easier and cheaper to build a device that outputs DP, and then slap a HDMI converter on it, than it is to build a device that uses HDMI natively.
That's DP++, which is not supported on all DP outputs, and notably is not supported by the USB-C DP AltMode.
I've got a pile of passive adapters because I have an esoteric device that has broken DP audio but HDMI audio using DP++ works fine.
Please do not generalize like this. DP over USB-C is essential for devices like Xreal One and One Pro — these work great with the Switch 1 and do not work at all with the Switch 2. It's a complete showstopper at the moment for people who would like to play games displaying them on those glasses.
Display port would have still allowed for a standardized format for other docks to provide conversion, or for connection to computer monitors.
> The inability for most docks to support the Switch 2 may not be malicious from Nintendo. It might just be a poor or lazy implementation of the USB-C specification
From the verge [0], 2 months ago:
> When I analyze the conversation between the Nintendo Switch 2 and its dock, I can see the two devices begin speaking in Nintendo’s own flavor of “vendor defined” language early in the conversation, before they sign off on any video output. And then, seemingly before the dock confirms that it’s engaged video-out, they send over 30 proprietary “unstructured” messages to one another.
> […]
> According to Antank, which says it checked with its chip supplier, that hexadecimal string “is indeed the current key being used by Nintendo.” My other sources are less sure.
I'm pretty sure lttl's conclusion is plain wrong. It is not JUST lazy USB-C implementation, but a purposefully designed special proprietary protocol on top of USB-C
[0] https://www.theverge.com/report/695915/switch-2-usb-c-third-...
So instead they sad "Nintendo stopped early with developing compatibility"
There's a tier above them (Oracle, for instance), but they're pretty up there in their willingness to head to court not just with other big corporations but with individuals.
Yes, our legal system has major flaws.
Not a great user experience.
If Nintendo genuinely cared about experience they'd just follow the standard and work with any dock, then pop up a notification if it notices that the device is overheating - perhaps even with a "We recommend the official dock" text.
The current behaviour is completely unacceptable and needlessly user-hostile. There's no way around it: their USB-C implementation is broken.
I kind of understand why they would rather break their USBC support intentionally and make it very clear that video out is only happening with their dock. Especially considering their audiences.
At that point, why use USB-C for the dock connection at all? Just use a proprietary connector if you're not going to follow the standards.
Having a separate USB-C port for charging should satisfy e.g. the EU regulations requiring that, I think. (Assuming that is the reason they used USB-C in the first place)
To satisfy charging expectations with the same port as display that they decided to do something proprietary with. On the flip side, why not do that when people will buy the console no matter what?
They are following the standards. They don't have to communicate with devices that they don't want to communicate with. There's no requirement in the USB spec that connected Type-C compliant devices interoperate in all cases.
What about it is "very clear"? It worked on the Switch 1, it's expected to work as it's USB, there is no error message, it just will appear that maybe the USB dongle or HDMI cable or whatever is defective.
The Nintendo Switch wasn't super picky about docks, but in order for external display to work, the dock had to support the mobile DisplayPort protocol that Nintendo used, "MyDP" instead of vanilla DisplayPort, which is what most devices supported at the time the Switch was released. Again, that wasn't a non-compliant thing on the part of the Switch, the Switch just used a technology that wasn't commonly used by much else, which is very commonly done by Nintendo.
Nintendo unnecessarily chose to make their device partially USB-C incompatible in an intransparent way. A lot of users will rely on this working (as it already did on the Switch 1) and then it just won't, and probably the user will just assume their third-party USB dongle is broken and maybe buy another one, which means Nintendo won't get anything out of it and the user will lose more money. Everyone loses but at least the pesky customer can't use a third-party product.
Because it wasn’t possible for Switch 1. After some time, some alternative USB-C hubs supported the Switch video output but it was basically reverse engineering and I totally remember this first "compatible" hub back in the early days of the console which happened to brick consoles.
Nintendo is like Apple they :
- Don’t want you tu use the Switch in unpredictable ways : with the switch on the dock the cooling is guaranteed to be efficient, even on Switch 1 because it meant that the console wasn’t lying on a blanket.
- Don’t want you to buy anything else than their expensive dock.
I have many reasons to be pissed at Apple but connectivity is not one of them.
'Overheating detected, reducing video resolution'.
Nintendo will earn millions by keeping it proprietary. Lets stop pretending this is about technical ability or 'protecting' the consumer from a bad ux.
Nintendo ships a dock with every Switch 2. How big is the market for people buying aftermarket docks? Nintendo has always aimed very squarely at the mass market.
Vendor Defined Messages have is part of any normal PD exchange, as they're simply anything that isn't defined by the PD spec itself. You'll see VDMs when connecting any device supporting more than just dumb charging, as it's used for all sorts of things like DisplayPort, Thunderbolt, eMarker identification, etc. - stuff we'd expect ehre.
The quote from Antak refers to just a single, possibly/likely proprietary, message. This could be to ID the dock on the basis of e.g. rejecting the switch 1 dock should one cram it in, or to reject switch 1 dongles. Maybe it's Nintendo speak for "dock capabilities: cooling", with the switch having no mode for docked gaming with reduced performance without cooling.
Intentional incompatibility, yes, but it's 1 message of an unknown type within bog standard USB-PD, not a "vendor defined lanugage" or "over 30 proprietary messages".
For Switch 1 games, docked means "we're running as fast as the internal cooling can handle and outputting 1080p, assume the user can't use the touch screen and such". A dongle is fine here as long as you don't block the air inlets or exhausts, or place the Switch on something heat sensitive.
For Switch 2 games, docked means "we're running as fast as the externally boosted cooling can handle and cranking out 4k, and assume you can't use the touch screen and such". Assuming the fan does useful work here, then with a dongle you'll be thermal throttling and have a bad gaming experience - on a PC you'd turn down the settings, here those are hardcoded.
So, what about using the switch 2 handheld mode on a switch 1 dock, seeing it's the same resolution? Well, if you tell it to run in handheld mode it might assume you have access to the touchscreen, always-on VRR and HDR, is using internal speakers, etc.
It's totally doable, but to do this right the stack needs to be prepared for it. As such, I understand why they did it.
Heck, this was the same issue for the Switch 1, and it took a while for third-party docks to pop up. It'll take all but a moment for third party docks to support this.
Still, what happens if you connect a Switch 2 to a 1080p display? I assume it would render at 1080p, because rendering at 4K and downscaling for output would be too wasteful. Switch 1 even has a setting for that, allowing you to choose between 480p, 720p, and 1080p.
Note that the cooling fan inside the dock is for cooling the dock and not the Switch 2 itself. The Switch 2 has its own fan for that.
So while not everyone docks the Switch 2 to a 4K display, the Switch 2 dock must support that.
It can be, but it doesn't have to be. DisplayPort is mostly a superset of HDMI, with different voltage levels. Going from HDMI to DisplayPort is much harder than going from DisplayPort to HDMI, though the hardware to do this is apparently much cheaper than it used to be, which is nice to see.
DisplayPort to HDMI only requires level shifting, as I understand it. I'm sure someone will correct me if they see this and I'm wrong.
You might be thinking of DisplayPort++, which is a special port supporting both DisplayPort and HDMI, allowing passive adapters. This is not available in the USB-C DisplayPort AltMode.
But also yes, most display port implementations also speak hdmi and can get away with simple converters
Because the Switch 2 is a different machine. Games being backwards compatible (via emulation) doesn't mean the hardware is (or has to be) backwards compatible. Different display chips, different display protocols, etc.
People made all kinds of claims about how the Switch 1 wasn't USB Type-C compliant when it was discovered that the Nyko dock kept frying the power management IC in the first Switch console. I think a lot of that false communal knowledge has carried forth to the Switch 2, unfortunately.
They stated it MAY be lazy, it MAY be intentional. They declined to state a singular conclusion so I 'm not sure how they're wrong. I think maybe you feel they're saying it's not, but they're actually saying "we don't have conclusive proof either way, but we could see either being true given Nintendo's history of laziness at some times and maliciousness at other times."
And here we are again.
The shit that the linked article is about, for one.
I always did think it was odd that a USB-C cable that wasnt Nintendo could break my Switch.
I'm not saying that's the case for you, but USB-C is a minefield and I've seen some weird things happen with USB-C plugs.
So there are non-compliant plugs, but if your device breaks just because it sees a regular PD VBUS voltage (5-20V) then it means that it was designed badly - either through ineptitude or foolish cost saving.
To be pedantic, I believe that only applies to USB-C sockets; AFAIK, a USB-C plug (like on a USB-A to USB-C cable) can in some cases put out 5V (but only 5V) before detecting a sink.
> but if your device breaks just because it sees a regular PD VBUS voltage (5-20V) then it means that it was designed badly
The standard was designed so that devices never see anything over 5V unless they ask for it, so why should a non-PD device (for instance, a mouse) care about it? In some cases (like a USB-A mouse plugged into a USB-A to USB-C adapter), the device might even have been designed and built when USB was 5V only.
That fried another device when I plugged it in.
This is non compliant in the EU, but when I reported it to the responsible authorities, they didn't feel like doing anything about it.
We are talking about a charger that can fry any device and potentially cause a fire, coming with a product aimed at people with babies, that's clearly non compliant to be sold in the EU, and they are doing nothing at all. Pretty shocking if you ask me.
I could put a USB-C connector on a device and have it not even try to do any USB protocol over the wire. If not being careful about pinouts, it could be super easy to destroy either device if plugged into some other USB-compliant device.
One problem with EU regulation (or at least most regulations; a few have union-wide regulators) is that you're really quite dependent on whether your national responsible body is any good.
For something like this (assuming it's sold union-wide and not just in your country), it might actually be useful to notify the responsible bodies on _other countries_ (once it's actually investigated and recalled the recall should be union-wide).
Nintendo messed up, that's it.
Early devices were things like the OnePlus 2 [0] and there were plenty of phones out before the Switch even hit the market in 2017 [1]. There were some issues with standards compliance, sure, but the market had vastly improved by the time the Switch had come out.
[0] https://www.gsmarena.com/oneplus_2-6902.php [1] https://www.gsmarena.com/results.php3?nYearMax=2017&nUSBType...
Every device in my room except for switch supports more than one voltage config. Wondering why on the earth switch decided to handle voltage setting like this.
Usually, pd charger will label their supported voltage config. And you can read that label to find out whether a charger will work with switch or not.
Source: I do use my phone charger to charge switch during traveling
Now, they make underpowered handhelds for kids with proprietary dongles like Apple in hopes of trapping their customers to their platform.
No thanks.
It's the same company as when you were a kid playing N64 or SNES or NES or whatever, just now you're older and jaded.
What do you mean? From what I know it was bog-standard microSD(HC/XC) with the maximum supported speed being UHS-I with nothing proprietary.
The GGP comment makes it sound like Nintendo only supported proprietary microSD cards at launch. While they did sell and recommend their branded microSD cards, one could use any brand of microSD card with the system and have the same functionality.
Melee runs on mods always nowadays (input processing patches for fairness and bugfixes), but they mod it in a way that doesn't have any visible difference so they get away with it.
I don’t see a single reason to think Nintendo of that time would do anything differently.
The reason for not accepting whatever dock/adapter seems pretty good in this case. The dock should have active cooling to conform to user expectations. And there’s no signs that Nintendo will prevent anyone from making a dock that supports it as long as it follows the procedure to confirm that it has active cooling.
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