We Should Have the Ability to Run Any Code We Want on Hardware We Own
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The article argues that users should have the ability to run any code on hardware they own, sparking a heated debate on device ownership, security, and the role of manufacturers in controlling software.
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No, says the car manufacturers, those cycles belong to us
No, says the nerds in Redmond, your computer belongs to us
I’d guess in 5 years you’ll start getting friction for using AD, and heavy push towards cloud services first. You’ll probably have to subscribe to legacy features or migrate to Azure to use them.
Their legacy systems management tool is a zombie product, and the replacement is Intune, which and an MDM solution which locks you out of your computer similar to Android or iOS.
I’ll be retired, so IDNGAF, but in 15 years, Microsoft will be capturing all of the value they give you for free in windows. The future will look like a 1980s mainframe.
Personally, I think a usable pure Linux phone is required to weaken the desktop vs. mobile distinction and break the lock-in. This would additionally empower the desktop platform, confirm it as baseline.
Apple and Google are still a problem, but they are a secondary problem.
The problem right now is that even if I had a couple of million dollars lying around, I STILL couldn't reliably get a piece of hardware certified for the cellular network. I would have to set up a company, spend untold amounts of money bribing^Wwooing cellular company executives for a couple years, and, maybe, just maybe, I could get my phone through the certification process.
The technical aspects of certification are the easy part.
The problem is that the cellular companies fully understand that when it happens their power goes to zero because they suddenly become a dumb pipe that everybody just wants to ignore.
That's why this will take legislation.
The sheer technical difficulty is what makes this kind of thing impractical.
The network does validate that a SIM card is a real SIM card, but you can put a "real SIM card" in anything.
The M1 Macbook Air is 5 years old now, has an active development, lots of community funding and attention, yet is still missing basic functionality like external monitors and video decoding. Because it's just a mammoth task to support modern hardware. Unless you have a whole paid team on it you've got no hope.
Because the number of non-Google and non-Apple phones is a rounding error.
And why is that? Because, except for the incumbents, it is almost impossible to certify a phone.
We could have nice sub-$100 phones (remove camera, etc.) if people could get them certified. But they can't; so we don't.
It should be able to make an OS. It should be able to write drivers. It should be able to port code to new platforms. It should be able to transpile compiled binaries (which are just languages of a different language) across architectures.
Sure seems we are very far from that, but really these are breadth-based knowledge with extensive examples / training sources. It SHOULD be something LLMs are good at, not new/novel/deep/difficult problems. What I described are labor-intensive and complicated, but not "difficult".
And would any corporate AI allow that?
We should be pretty paranoid about centralized control attempts, especially in tech. This is a ... fragile ... time.
You can feed it assembly listings, or bytecode that the decompiler couldn't handle, and get back solid results.
And corporate AIs don't really have a fuck to give, at least not yet. You can sic Claude on obvious decompiler outputs, or a repo of questionable sources with a "VERY BIG CORPO - PROPRIETARY AND CONFIDENTIAL" in every single file, and it'll sift through it - no complaints, no questions asked. And if that data somehow circles back into the training eventually, then all the funnier.
I haven't heard much from the major projects yet, but I'm not ear-to-the-ground.
I guess that is what is disappointing. It's all (to quote n-gage) webshit you see being used for this, and corpo-code so far, to your point.
How is it going to do that without testing (and potentially bricking) hardware in real life?
>It should be able to transpile compiled binaries (which are just languages of a different language) across architectures
I don't know why you would use an LLM to do that. Couldn't you just distribute the binaries in some intermediate format, or decompile them to a comprehensible source format first?
My line of thinking is that AI essentially is really good at breadth-based problems wide knowledge.
An operating system is a specific well-known set of problems. Generally, it's not novel technology involved. An OS is a massive amount of work. Technical butrudgerous work.
If there's a large amount of source code, a great deal of discussion on that source code, and lots of other working examples, and you're really just kind of doing a derivative n + 1 design or adaptation of an existing product, that sounds like something in llm can do
Obviously I'm not talking about vibe, coding and OS. But could an OS do 99% of that and vastly reduce the amount of work to get a OS to work with your hardware with the big assumption that you have access to specs or some way of doing that?
While it would be a burden to require a degree of openness, it's not like companies are all rugged individualists who would never want to see legal restrictions in the field.
It's just a question of what is overall best and fairest.
Restrictions can both help and hinder innovation, and it's innovation that in the ling run makes things improve IMO.
I'm not sure innovation is really impacted when restricting the private sector. Traditionally, innovation happens in public (e.g, universities) or military spaces.
If only it were so. But it's not just that. It's also a question of which section of society has the power to demand or prevent the creation of such a system.
Whether enacting labor protections or the Magna Carta, these beneficial restrictions require some leverage. Otherwise what is overall beat and fairest won't be coming up.
And that is what is wrong here. Even the smallest nation should be far more powerful than the largest corporation. But corporations are now more powerful than most nations, including some really big ones. So the only way to solve this is to for an umbrella for nations that offsets the power that these corporations have.
The first thing you notice when you arrive at Brussels airport is the absolute barrage of Google advertising that tries to convince you that Google is doing everything they can to play by the rules. When it is of course doing the exact opposite. So at least Google seems to realize that smaller nations banding together wield power. But they will never wield it as effectively as a company can, so we still have many problems.
Since nations can be really small, I don't agree.
I think it's shocking how many people Google can affect through its search algorithms (more than any nation on Earth) and yet there is no democratic system to hold them accountable.
Point being, also states can do murder.
A nation that did that would be able to do that exactly once before everyone decides to never do business with it ever again, which they can afford to do because it's such a small market. Exercising arbitrary power is not the trump card you think it is. Hell, even a tiny nation with reasonable but annoying (from the point of view of a corporation) laws may not be worth it to deal with.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Jamal_Khashog...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Omar_Assad
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Sayfollah_Musallet
True "some small state fallacy" please. And here I believe it matters if we are talking about some small state, or a small state that happens to be a close ally with lots of influence for various reasons.
> A nation that did that would be able to do that exactly once before everyone decides to never do business with it ever again
US CBP and ICE would like a word with you.
Company aims for profit.
Bigger scale allows for better efficiency.
So companies naturally grow big. The bigger they are, the easier for them to compete.
Big companies have access to tremendous resources, so they can push laws by bribing law makers, advertising their agenda to the masses.
There's no way around it, not without dismantling capitalism. Nations will serve to the corporations, no other way around.
There are natural boundaries of the growth scale, which are related to the inherent efficiency of communications between people and overall human capability. Corporations are controlled by people and people have limited brains and mouths. I feel that with AI development, those boundaries will move apart and allow for even greater growth eventually.
Yes there is, the population passing laws to regulate this. The problem is though, that most people don't understand and don't care enough until its too late.
This is dogma, not proven fact, and most people that argue this tend to use self-serving metrics and a tailored definition of "efficient". Some counterexamples: early Google was much more efficient in responding to market changes than the current top-heavy organization; small hospitals tend to have better health outcomes (both per patient and per dollar) than large chains. Tesla was able to innovate much faster than established behemoths.
There are good examples, though—you can produce a single gold ring a lot cheaper than you can produce a one-of-a-trillion of them, cuz at some point you simply run out of gold. Another example is running into a cap in demand. Classic sigmoid vs exponential patterns.
Yep. They control our information - how we make it, what we are allowed to find, and what we can say. And they are large enough to not face real competition. So let’s treat them like the state owned corporations they are and regulate heavily. Smaller companies can be left unregulated. But not companies worth 500 billion or more.
If they were state owned, we could vote for how the profits get used and we would have larger budgets for healthcare and education.
States are neither good at innovation nor dynamism.
But they are very good at telling you what you should and should not do.
The latter part has some wonderful consequences for consumer or worker protections, but it has some terrible ones for creating new stuff or improving the old.
Does the good outweigh the bad?
Perhaps in the beginning. Today? Definitely not.
https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/feder...
Another $1.3 trillion on wealth transfers from workers to non workers (including disability). And another $608B on wealth transfers from people with higher income to people with lower or no incomes.
Alphabet and Apple, combined, earned $193B in 2024, from the entire world.
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/GOOG/alphabet/net-...
https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AAPL/apple/net-inc...
How does your suggestion make any difference, other than destroying 2 of the very few organizations driving demand for US assets, and hence help support the US dollar's purchasing power?
I asked "in what way the companies are state-owned?"
Sometimes owner control, cf. corporate control, can be had by sacrificing hardware functionality, i.e., features, closed source drivers. Choice between particular hardware feature(s) working and control over the hardware in general.
To push further, Google and Apple have basically as much power as the US.
The UK going after Apple, only to get rebutted by the US is the most simple instance of it. International treaties pushed by the US strongly protecting it's top corporations is the more standard behavior.
Any entity fighting the duopoly is effectively getting into a fight with the US.
If this is true then why is Tim Cook visiting Trump? Shouldn’t it be the other way around.
There is a whole antropologic field around that, but to keep it short, if you pay your palace and all expenses with the money funneled to you as gifts, you're not the one in control.
Fun read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy
Without that fraudulent marketing, Android never would have crowded out other options so quickly in the marketplace.
The solution is to either have Google back down on breaking its promise that Android would be open or to have an antitrust lawsuit strip Android from Google's control.
I was part of this problem. I've accepted what Apple is doing because I had Android. I didn't think they'd come for me next so I didn't speak up
Not a legal argument, since Apple never claimed the iPhone was anything else but a walled garden, and walled gardens are legal as long as you are clear that users will be buying into a walled garden from the start.
(For example: Nintendo, PlayStation and Xbox)
Legally, the only thing you could do is change the law to make walled gardens illegal, as they did in the EU.
The changes Google has proposed for sideloading are illegal under existing law, since Android was sold to consumers with the promise that it was the "open" platform that allowed users to run anything they like.
Legislation, as you say, seems like it'll be necessary :/
When you chose to create an open platform with multiple participants, you are creating a new open market where antitrust laws will apply... even to you as the platform creator.
Microsoft, for example, was found guilty of antitrust in the personal computer market long after the original computers running Windows were gone.
(though not so much with Xbox any more due to the way how Microsoft is trying to bridge the gap with Windows)
− but I'm not willing to pretend that for the very personal computers that smartphones are.
As was Windows RT on the original Surface tablet.
Nobody is forced to buy into a walled garden.
In those examples, nobody did.
Lets be real, they do not have more power than any nations. They have a lot of power in a few tiny silos that happen to make up like 90% of the mental space of a lot of terminally online folk.
Heck they probably have less power than Coca Cola or Pepsi did during the Cola wars, or United Fruit Company at its height.
Wake me up when Apple rolls a tank into red square or Google does anything but complain about national security legislation it then goes and assertively complies with.
https://www.realbusinessrescue.co.uk/advice-hub/companies-wo... https://techcrunch.com/2023/06/29/so-who-watches-the-watchme... https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/sep/23/amazon-tesl...
www.realbusinessrescue.co.uk/advice-hub/companies-worth-more-than-countries
techcrunch.com/2023/06/29/so-who-watches-the-watchmen
www.theguardian.com/business/2024/sep/23/amazon-tesla-meta-climate-change-democracy
EDIT: Now in plain text since the last URL does not show up otherwise. And why is it rendering with --, its only - in the URL?
And often the influence of an organisation is related to the state willing to back it. The US intervening for Tesla for instance. And China Petroleum wouldnt be so big if it wasnt for the chinese state.
> building those alternatives is basically impossible
For smart people it is not impossible. Just few years ago, few folks wrote complicated drivers for completely closed hardware, and I'm talking about M1 Macbook.
Google Pixel, on the other hand, was pretty open until very recently. I might be wrong about specifics, but I'm pretty sure that most of software was open, so you could just look at the kernel sources in the readable C to look for anything. You can literally build this kernel and run linux userspace and go from there to any lengths of development. Or you can build alternative systems, looking at driver sources.
I don't understand why mobile systems do not attract OS builders.
My guess would be that it's a continuously moving target. There's no point in spending years working to support some weird integrated wifi adapter+battery controller when by the time you're done the hardware is already obsolete and no longer being manufactured. Repeat that for every device on the phone. The only ones who can keep up with that pace are the manufacturers themselves. It'd be different if there was some kind of standardization that would make the effort worthwhile, though.
They're graphical consumer devices, the quality bar is so high nobody can reach it except huge well funded teams. It's like asking why desktop Linux doesn't still attract OS builders, or for that matter, why the PC platform doesn't attract OS builders. Occasionally someone makes an OS that boots to a simple windowed GUI as a hobby, that's as far as it gets now.
A lot of these HN discussions dance around or ignore this point. When people demand the freedom to run whatever they want, they never give use cases that motivate this. Which OS do they want to dual boot? Some minor respin of Android with a few tweaks that doesn't disagree with Google on anything substantial (Google accepted a lot of PRs from GrapheneOS people).
Nobody is building a compelling new OS even on platforms that have fully documented drivers. There's no point. There are no new ideas, operating systems are mature, it's done, there's nothing to do there. Even Meta gave up on their XROS and that was at least for a new hardware profile. Google did bend over backwards to let people treat phones like they were PCs but it seems regular Android is in practice open enough for what people want to do.
Eh, Redox probably counters your statement here. It's just in that wide gulch of "the easy part is done and the hard parts are hard".
But it is being built, and some would definitely consider it compelling.
Cellphones are not very useful as programming tools (too small), which is what Open Source excels at.
Also, cellphones need to handle some annoying things, like it should always be possible and easy to call emergency services. Which is to say, the UI work seems stressful.
I don't understand why everybody is ignoring existing, working GNU/Linux phones: Librem 5 and Pinephone. The former is my daily driver btw.
The key is that if you choose not to run that software, your hardware should not be constrained. You own the hardware, it's a tangible thing that is your property.
Boils down to a consumer rights issue that I fall on the same side of as the author.
Also worrisome are e-fuses, which allow software to make irrevocable physical changes to your hardware. They shouldn't be allowed to be modified except by the owner. (See Nintendo Switch updates blowing e-fuses to prevent downgrades.)
Because I can do make believe type arguments all day. We should lock everyone up, because what if a super astroid hits the Earth and only prison is strong enough to protect them??
See, easy, and kind of fun. Doesn't mean much though.
Obviously the parent commenter believes you should be able to exploit your own device and downgrade the OS if you wish.
Again, if you want to run purely OSS software with permissive licenses, that should be your prerogative. But you might miss out on the Play store. If you want to mess with Valve anti-cheat, you can't connect to Steam games online. Etc. I think these companies do have a right to dictate software requirements for client code accessing their servers.
But, you should be able to wipe those clients if you don't care about them and play tux racer on Arch.
Do they? Is microcode hardware, or software? If I open up the plugboard on my IBM 407 and rewire the connections, am I updating software or reconfiguring hardware? I think this is a false dichotomy. Software or hardware, kernel or userspace, these are all just parts of a machine. I care about the holistic behaviour of that machine, not about which specific parts do which specific things.
> But, you should be able to wipe those clients if you don't care about them and play tux racer on Arch.
I don't need to play tux racer. I need to use my bank.
> I think these companies do have a right to dictate software requirements for client code accessing their servers.
They're not just dictating the requirements of the client code, they're dictating requirements for the entire execution environment. Following your logic to its conclusion, if I'm going to do banking from my phone (and that's a foregone conclusion), I have to have to cede that bank the right to veto any other piece of software from my phone.
I could buy a second phone, because I'm a relatively affluent software developer, but most people have neither the money nor the energy to buy a special phone for banking. They'll just let the bank control their phone. I consider this is an unacceptable abridgement of their freedom.
I have no problem with Valve anti-cheat, so long as it's reasonably permissive. Valve anti-cheat won't stop me from installing my own software. I'm not drawing a hard technical line here; there's a grey area of reasonable integrity provisions. Sideloading restrictions in Android cross well beyond that grey into the black.
The smartphone does not consist of just one processor, it's a collection of dedicated processors, each running custom algorithms locally. Sure, there's software running in the application layer, but it's playing more of a coordination role than actually doing the work. Just think of sending a packet over the internet and how different it is between a smartphone and a computer, how much more complex a cellular modem is compared to a network card.
It's less about software now and more about hardware accelerated modules. Even CPUs run primarily on microcode which can be patched after the fact.
These patterns are cyclical. It will take a number of years before we return to standardized compute again, but return we will. Eventually.
In practice, a whole lot software would have to be open source too so that the hardware is reasonably usable. The layers you'd need to let an iPhone run android well, or a Pixel phone to run iOS are not small.
I'm not convinced there is some inalienable right to load an OS onto any hardware but said hardware/OS should never be on the critical path to anything a citizen needs to do.
Cars are increasingly controlled more via code than driver, but that (hopefully) goes through certification and oversight processes. Lane control, collision detection, self parking, self driving features - should people be able to hack these systems? Do we want people running their own collision detection routines that are less sensitive, because the stock option keeps slowing them down so much everyday when they drive past a school?
I imagine many of us here have encountered a computer that's broken because the user installed a programe to "make their machine faster" which deleted important windows files or removed everything from the startup folder that the user needs to use. I'm sure I could make a lot of money with a programme that decreases the time it takes to recharge your EV. Might remove heat protections, run at your own risk! (And the risk of passengers, neighbours, pedestrians and anyone your share a road with...)
I don't care if you want to run code that can allow more nuances to the seat heating, but do I think that's an important enough principle to also allow drivers to watch netflix on the in car display?
TVs and home appliances are less concerning, but I'm sure there's users out there who'd like to disable the annoying "don't run the dryer when it's full of lint" lock out or stop their garage door from beeping at their car everyday, not realising that setting also keeps it from closing on top of neighbourhood kids or cats.
I don't know if there's anyway to balance a reasonable right to tinker with a general right to live in a safe environment. I also suspect EU and US readers will have quite different takes on it - in part because of the current culture, in part because I think a lot of it is quite effected by geography. Live in dense housing and your neighbours ability to burn their house down is much more of your concern!)
If a manufacturer makes a device locked down, it's the technological protections preventing you from running your own code. Not IP/copyright. Sometimes they get jailbroken but sometimes not.
We're far from the promotion of useful arts and sciences and instead guarding the likeness of a cartoon mouse.
There may be alternatives to copyright and IP in general, but that would require dramatic changes to society, and maybe not in a good way. What you would get is essentially communism. Rejection of intellectual property is a form of rejection of private property, which is at the core of communism. Problem is, looking at past examples, it didn't work great.
Except GrapheneOS, I suppose, but it's still riding the coattails of Android. Police in some places assume you're a drug dealer and arrest you if you have it, so it does qualify as "dark web".
Actually enforcing the anti-monopoly rules on the books would help, too.
And while we're making wishes, we could kill the VC-backed tech play by enforcing a digital version of anti-dumping laws.
With those rules in place, we'd see our market engine quite a bit more aligned with the social good.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping_(pricing_policy)
As someone who enjoyed Linux phones like the Nokia N900/950 and would love to see those hacker-spirited devices again, statements like this sound more than naïve to me. I can acknowledge my own interests here (having control over how exactly the device I own runs), but I can also see the interests of phone manufacturers — protecting revenue streams, managing liability and regulatory risks, optimizing hardware–software integration, and so on. I don't see how my own interests here outweigh collective interests here.
I also don’t see Apple or Google as merely companies that assemble parts and selling us "hardware". The decades when hardware and software were two disconnected worlds are gone.
Reading technical documentation on things like secure enclaves, UWB chips, computational photography stack, HRTF tuning, unified memory, TrueDepth cameras, AWDL, etc., it feels very wrong to support claims like the OP makes. “Hardware I own” sounds like you bought a pan and demand the right to cook any food you want. But we’re not buying pans anymore — we’re buying airplanes that also happen to serve food.
(Hell: I'd personally be OK without "documentation"... it should simply be illegal to actively go out of your way to prevent people from doing this. This way you also aren't mandating anyone go to extra effort they otherwise wouldn't bother with: the status quo is that, because they can, they thrown down an incredible amount of effort trying to prevent people from figuring things out themselves, and that really sucks.)
heh.
Of course, having any kind of documentation or driver sources that could be referenced would make it much easier, and much less taxing on sanity.
I think the thing you brought up at the beginning is the most practical path forward, someone with the technical know-how and business acumen needs to start a company. Apple and Google are quite weak now, and there are lessons to be learned from the Librem 5 and PinePhone. If enough people try, someone will eventually break through.
However the interests you mention aren't collective at all but very singularly the ones of the manufacturer only
And there should also be the right to be able to opt out of the manufacturers' protections of course.
> There are many ways to protect security, leaving all your keys in the hands of one party is not the only one.
When youre dealing with idiots its a bit harder than you might expect. Tons of idiots own phones and if apple allowed them to be the victim of security vulnerabilities they get terrible pr.
In reality the victim is the first being blamed, the driver second and the government third
I'm skeptical. A robust permission model limiting the damage an ill-behaved app was surely part of it, as was the existence of a curated app store. The relative rarity of people directly installing apps on Android suggests Apple didn't really need to force the use of that curated store.
Or worse, blow them up.
I was writing in reference to this quote ^
It would have been more accurate for me to say "support the development of arbitrary software stacks," but where do you draw the line between "supporting the development of" and "supporting"?
If Apple provided all the docs, people would start building, and then they would start complaining when Apple doesn't consider them a customer of the business, and Apple would eventually be forced to react, which would take energy away from there core commitment: delivering a unified product experience for consumers
I suspect you don't understand this, but this is why corporations are deliberately unhelpful in many (annoying) ways, and why people don't share things in general as much as you'd hope
Regardless, we're talking about products here—"authoritarian" is a word reserved to situations where the threat of force is involved.
In this specific example, forcing a company to do something is authoritarian (because they will be fined or jailed if they do not comply with the rules). Corporations are not, as a rule, authoritarian—they may, however, do things that are not to your benefit or liking.
If were referring to products necessary to function in society, YES! Obviously yes, a big exclaiming yes, yes with no room for debate.
A car, but you can't drive anywhere but to work. Electricity, but you can't use it to listen to radio that criticizes our dear leader. A TV, but you can't use it to watch anything other than military parades.
A phone, but you can only use it to perform government approved actions on government approved software.
Are you not more or less arguing for this?
But you're right to point to a nasty problem, the solution to which is not obvious: "what do you do when society begins to rely on something created by a corporation, which is not accountable to a populace?"
Turning the corporation into a mini government may not have the effects you want
Because I did. How come I can do what I want with my computer, but not my phone? Why are phones so inferior in this area?
My phone is more powerful than many of the computers I've had in the past, yet I need to jump through a million hoops to use it as a software development platform. Why?
That said, a camera with a fully open software stack would be fun.
Then I shouldn't be able to install software on it at all. For any given device either its functions are fixed, or they're modifiable at the sole discretion of the owner. There should be no middle ground.
Will it be as good as the iOS implementation? Probably not. But it's hardly an impossible fact and not one that has to be done entirely over and over for every device. The Asahi folks showed it could be done despite hostile conditions.
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